Dual Blade question

[Deathevn]

Not quite sure where to put this as I was looking to compare two AT's . I recognize that dual blades is not.. the best set but It is something I always wanted to give a good swing to. I am just not sure which class fits best on it: Stalker, Brute or Scrapper.  I want to say scrapper because of the base higher damage, or stalker due to assassinate , but it for the most part animates pretty fast and that lends to bruting. So here I am asking people that know better then me.

 

Thank you.

[Leogunner]

They all play differently.  They have different combos.

 

If you're asking which is better, I dunno how to answer that.  I have fun with my Brute and Stalker DB.  Haven't tried it on a Tanker or Scrapper yet.  If you're a fan of DB, just try them all.  If you'd ask me to pick for you, I'd need to know the concept for your character.

[Myrmidon]

Hop on test and give DB a try for all of the Melee ATs. That should answer all of your questions.

[TheOtherTed]

My relatively uninformed and likely unpopular take:  Stalkers are tied to their Assassinate power.  Brutes are bound by the Fury mechanic.  But Scrappers - Scrappers are free like the wind, man, they can just do their thing and be, ya dig?

[Hopeling]

I'm going to say Scrappers. Stalkers lose Follow Up, which is a bummer. Brutes don't benefit as much from it due to their lower damage scale. But for Scrappers, it's a great power.

[Sniktch]

Stalkers have some issues with Dual Blades - specifically, the combos are really badly paced out, with half of them being tied to Build Up -> AS and thus only available on average every minute or so, those two combos being the only ones usable till Vengeful Slice is accessible, and Placate, AS, and Build-Up being combo pieces makes any of them used mid-other-combo break that combo - can't hit BU just before a Vengeful Slice triggers an Attack Vitals, can't Placate to set up a guaranteed crit, can't just jump on AS when it's got a ring-crit showing, because they all break other combos. 

 

The other ATs don't have this issue because A: their aggro-control power - Taunt or Warrior's Challenge - isn't mixed into the combo pool and thus can't break other combos; this also means they get one more combo earlier, and B: because Blinding Feint and/or Empower lasts long enough for them to run a full combo during their both-on duration; while Empower for Stalkers lasts the same amount of time, unlike the other ATs, by the time you GET Empower, Build Up is done.

 

This is why the usual advice given to Stalkers for Dual Blades is 'ignore combos, just do the highest DPA attacks'.  My view is any set with a gimmick, if the best advice is 'ignore the gimmick', there's an issue that needs addressed.

[Doc_Scorpion]

On 10/5/2019 at 2:42 PM, TheOtherTed said:

My relatively uninformed and likely unpopular take:  Stalkers are tied to their Assassinate power.  Brutes are bound by the Fury mechanic.  But Scrappers - Scrappers are free like the wind, man, they can just do their thing and be, ya dig?

<starts filing off serial numbers and shaking a can of spray paint...>

[Leogunner]

10 hours ago, Sniktch said:

Stalkers have some issues with Dual Blades - specifically, the combos are really badly paced out, with half of them being tied to Build Up -> AS and thus only available on average every minute or so, those two combos being the only ones usable till Vengeful Slice is accessible, and Placate, AS, and Build-Up being combo pieces makes any of them used mid-other-combo break that combo - can't hit BU just before a Vengeful Slice triggers an Attack Vitals, can't Placate to set up a guaranteed crit, can't just jump on AS when it's got a ring-crit showing, because they all break other combos. 

 

The other ATs don't have this issue because A: their aggro-control power - Taunt or Warrior's Challenge - isn't mixed into the combo pool and thus can't break other combos; this also means they get one more combo earlier, and B: because Blinding Feint and/or Empower lasts long enough for them to run a full combo during their both-on duration; while Empower for Stalkers lasts the same amount of time, unlike the other ATs, by the time you GET Empower, Build Up is done.

 

This is why the usual advice given to Stalkers for Dual Blades is 'ignore combos, just do the highest DPA attacks'.  My view is any set with a gimmick, if the best advice is 'ignore the gimmick', there's an issue that needs addressed.

There are some interesting quirks for Stalker Dual Blades.  For example, you don't really need the Empower combo since Stalker can auto-recharge its Build Up which is a large damage and ToHit buff without a ToHit check.  If you DO want to use the Empower Combo, it does get a little bonus buff since you likely won't keep it up.  It has double the bonus to damage than other ATs which, you CAN stack it (it's trivially easy to use BU > AS > Placate within 15 seconds especially considering the in-combat AS animation is quick and snappy).  Part of the appeal of playing a Stalker isn't about the heights of its DPS but the strength of its bursts so if you LIKE to pull off 180% damage buff using BU+Empower+Guassian Proc you can, but It's a throw-away combo that you don't need.  I'm sure you can get a decent damage buff for a longer amount of time for Brute/Scrap/Tank but you won't get as high, again, that's the appeal of Stalker.

 

Something else that's a bit unique for Stalker combos is their Sweep combo, if you land Ablating Strike which is a single target attack, it will trigger an auto-hit AoE (at least I don't believe it ever had a ToHit check) and it's a nice opening salvo or AoE shreadder if you've got a nice scrap going and you have the Assassin's Mark proc to get you lots of BUs.  Just every time you see Build Up get instantly recharged, BU > AS > Ablating and continue.

 

As for ignoring a set's gimmick, that isn't uncommon.  Lots of people suggest ignoring Psi melee's gimmick or dual pistol's gimmick.  Heck, Stalker Staff pretty much is excluded from the gimmick and it's all the better for it.  I wouldn't advice ignoring combos on a Stalker, you just don't need to constantly use combos or all of the combos.  Frankly, you should be able to ignore a gimmick if it suits your style or the circumstance of the situation.

 

I will say though, the lit up rings is rather confusing when Assassin's Focus uses the same UI indicator so maybe they can change that.

 

 

[Sniktch]

On 10/7/2019 at 7:23 PM, Leogunner said:

There are some interesting quirks for Stalker Dual Blades.  For example, you don't really need the Empower combo since Stalker can auto-recharge its Build Up which is a large damage and ToHit buff without a ToHit check.  If you DO want to use the Empower Combo, it does get a little bonus buff since you likely won't keep it up.  It has double the bonus to damage than other ATs which, you CAN stack it (it's trivially easy to use BU > AS > Placate within 15 seconds especially considering the in-combat AS animation is quick and snappy).  Part of the appeal of playing a Stalker isn't about the heights of its DPS but the strength of its bursts so if you LIKE to pull off 180% damage buff using BU+Empower+Guassian Proc you can, but It's a throw-away combo that you don't need.  I'm sure you can get a decent damage buff for a longer amount of time for Brute/Scrap/Tank but you won't get as high, again, that's the appeal of Stalker.

 

Something else that's a bit unique for Stalker combos is their Sweep combo, if you land Ablating Strike which is a single target attack, it will trigger an auto-hit AoE (at least I don't believe it ever had a ToHit check) and it's a nice opening salvo or AoE shreadder if you've got a nice scrap going and you have the Assassin's Mark proc to get you lots of BUs.  Just every time you see Build Up get instantly recharged, BU > AS > Ablating and continue.

 

As for ignoring a set's gimmick, that isn't uncommon.  Lots of people suggest ignoring Psi melee's gimmick or dual pistol's gimmick.  Heck, Stalker Staff pretty much is excluded from the gimmick and it's all the better for it.  I wouldn't advice ignoring combos on a Stalker, you just don't need to constantly use combos or all of the combos.  Frankly, you should be able to ignore a gimmick if it suits your style or the circumstance of the situation.

 

I will say though, the lit up rings is rather confusing when Assassin's Focus uses the same UI indicator so maybe they can change that.

 

 

While I don't disagree with your post, I will point out you're basing off not just sets but ATO sets and procs.  Think the set out with SOs, as that's the baseline balance point, and the problems I point out become a LOT more pertinent.

[Lines]

1 hour ago, Sniktch said:

While I don't disagree with your post, I will point out you're basing off not just sets but ATO sets and procs.  Think the set out with SOs, as that's the baseline balance point, and the problems I point out become a LOT more pertinent.

I agree that SOs should be the agreed baseline, but we’re talking about issues that can be resolved with relative ease.

 

The stalker ATOs totally transform the dynamics of the AT, in my experience moreso than other ATOs.

 

I struggled with a DB stalker on live (in a kinda enjoyable challenge, carried-by- concept sort of way), but I could see how the ATOs could really up the pace of the powerset. I’d also add to the ‘ignore the combos on a stalker’ crowd.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Sniktch said:

While I don't disagree with your post, I will point out you're basing off not just sets but ATO sets and procs.  Think the set out with SOs, as that's the baseline balance point, and the problems I point out become a LOT more pertinent.

Not sets, just that ONE enhancement.  Might get some interested in working toward a reward/goal like collecting 100 merits and socketing it in any one of their attacks.