Melee secondary comparisons, highlighting some DA wishful thinking.

[Razor Cure]

Preface.

Way back when IOs just came out, I made an em/da brute, and he was one of my fav toons. I loved both sets, and despite hardly ever seeing DA back then, i found it really good. This was partly because IOs enabled some of its shortcomings to be mitigated. I say shortcomings but..the design (for pre IO play) really was not that great. It has a well deserved rep as one of, if not THE most end heavy set. Of course, that can be helped by running less/different toggles (DA toggles that is) but I am of the firm opinion that a defensive power set SHOULD be running all of the sets toggle powers, all the time. I was thinking about tweaks that would help DA, and I came up with the following ideas for ALL melee secondaries.

 

I did a quick table, of melee secondaries (and forgot stone, cause I was looking at scrappers..and stone is just a mess anyway), appearing below. The semi new sets, WP and Shield are marked with -, while the newest, Bio and Rad have a +. The oldest sets are (I think) invul, fire, dark, regen, sr and ice, with teh others coming with CoV. Nin is also a bit odd, since I was looking at the scrapper version.

 

 

BioA+

DarkA

ElecA

EnrgyA

FieryA

IceA

Invul

Nin

RadA+

Regen

ShieldD-

SR

WiPo-

Damage Auras:

T8

T2

T2

T2

T8

Survivial Shields (def/rez):

T1, T6*

T1, T3,T6

T1, T3

T1, T3

T1, T5

T1, T5

T2, T7

T1, T2, T3

T1, T3

T1, T3, T6

T1, T2

T1, T2, T8

T1, T7

Passives (+hp, red, regen):

T2

T5, T7*

T2*, T5*

T4

T7

T1, T4, T6, T8

T2

T3, T6

T3, T5, T6, T7

T1, T3, T6

MezProt:

T3*

T4

T4

T4

T4

T5

T4, click

T4

T5

T4 click

T4 click

T4

Click Heals:

T6

T3

T6

T5*

T2

Click +HP

T7

T5

T7*

T2

T3

T4

Click +end/rec

T7

T8

T8

T6

T6

Click Aborbs

T5

T7

Utility (cloak, stun etc)

T4

T7, T8

T6

T8*, T7*

T3

T8

T8, T6

T7

T5, T7, T8

T5*

Self Rez

T9

T9

T8

Y8

Tier 9

Yes, utility

Yes, meh

Yes, +HP

Yes *

Yes, meh

Yes< meh

Yes, good

Yes< good

Yes,good

Yes, meh

Yes, ok

 

 

Obviously my categories are not 100% specific, but the newer sets (the + and - ones) all share tier9s that are actually useful and passives that provide multiple benefits in one power (+hp, res, rec, regen etc), compared to 'older' sets, that have passives that just do ONE thing (fast healing/quick rec, teh invul ones). Also rad and bio are the only sets with +absorb clicks, and aoe heals that give +hp AND +end.

 

Also damage auras in general are..not great. Most come super early, when it is utterly pointless to pick the power, given you will have zero way to actually run it and attack. The bio and ice ones come at t8, which makes much more sense (i'd ideally like them maybe at t6 or 7 though). All of the damage auras have a HUGE end cost, very low damaghe, and need acc to actual hit anything, requiring heavy slotting, and almost mandatory maxed out end red, damage and possibly acc. That is impossible to do without IOs, and considering most of those sets where made before IOs, it is just stupid.

 

All the damage auras need a reduction in end cost, at the very least. Again, a power should not almost require IOs and incarnate powers to be run all the time. ANd yes, we could turn it off, but a defensive set should be able to use all its tools.

 

Any aoe heal, and click heal, should have a +end/+end discount component. As mentioned, Bio and Rad already do this, with the Aborb powers ALSO given +regen. +HP clicks (like dull pain etc) should also give +regen. Sets like elec and ea had their click heals tweaked for end discounts, and the same thing to Reconstruction, Healing Flames, KujiinSha etc would help those sets a huge armount (and totally fit the regen them).

 

Passives should be looked at. The Invul ones got a big boost in secondary effetcs, but the Regen ones still just suck. There is NO reason while the set needs 2 powers for 2 effects, when bio/rad/wp and to an extent, shield, do way more things in just one pick.

 

Self Rez powers. These all really need tweaking, to be more like the Rez in sentinel regen. Make them not actually require teh power set to FAIL (by dying), to use them. A simple +hp/absorb click would go a long way.

 

Tier9s. Been a few threads on this. Just look at the Rad and Bio tier9, compared to anything else. Even wp/shield/ice (on scrappers) are good powers, and dont provide 'useless' benefit in 99% of situations.

 

Knockback Protection. Only TWO sets (fire and dark, 3 if you count nin on stalkers) have no kb protection. Something that originally (i assume) was meant to make sets unique, now just are silly outliers, with no reason to exist (especially after KB IOs).  As proof, look at Nin on scrappers/sentys. The GET kb protection. Why? How? How do the other versions someohow think 'you know what? kb prot is for pansies!.' Give it to Fire, Dark and Nin.

 

 

Now onto my Dark Armour tweaks.

 

DA has great resists, a great heal, and utterly woeful end usage. With the 'usual' 3 defensive toggles, a damage aura, a stealth (that is a almost worthless amount of def, more so with NO defdebuff protection in the set) and TWO utility toggles, nothing else comes close to teh end usage. And CoF has an insane end cost combined with lower than normal accuracy. Sure, the utility toggles are good but actually running then, with teh 'normal' toggles AND the damage aura?

Compare this to other power sets with damage auras, Fire, Ice and Elec, which have end recovery powers. Bio has +recovery AND +end. And none of these sets have the amount of toggles.

 

Give DarkRegen a +end/recovery. This HAS been done in DA on sentinels, so there is zero reason not too.

 

As above, the damage aura NEEDS to have a lowered end cost.

 

Cloak of Fear. Lowered end cost/better acc.

 

Cloak of Darkness. Higher def and some debuff resist.

 

Self Rez. Usable as a click heal.

 

KB protection to ObShield.

 

Best case scenario: Combine CoD and OG into one power, stealth and stun, the stun suppressing (like stalker versions) when 'in' stealth. Add a tier9, Shadow Meld. This would totally fill teh layered Defence gap in the set, and be about the best t9 out.

 

[BrandX]

Looking at Regen, I thought Resilience could use a +Defense ALL component.  MoG get the +Defense ALL.  And both get Psy resist added in.

I thought Fast Healing could use a +HP component, but that may only be good for Brutes, as I'm pretty sure Dull Pain maxes HP for Stalkers and Scrappers (though, it may mean less use of DP).  For sure it could use a high Toxic resist added into it, which I think makes perfect sense for Regeneration, as that's just a very common aspect to Regeneration in comics...TOXIC RESIST!

 

Intergration and Instant Healing I have to wonder why I can't enhance those regen values.

I'm not 50 yet on my EM/Regen Brute, but I can say now, I haven't found as survivable as the other secondaries.

[Lost Ninja]

In all honesty I think all sets made pre-Paragon Studios need looking at and bringing up to the later sets. DA is just one of the more needy ones...

[Leogunner]

Doesn't compute.

 

So now that IOs can overcome certain holes and shortcomings of armor sets, they don't function well as holes so should be filled?

 

If anything, sets like Bio should be reigned in instead.  It's no secret that the new sets are comparatively strong.  While I can understand that no one wants to advocate for nerfing people's characters, the same courtesy should be afforded the opposite mentality about creeping power levels.

 

That all being said, I think there's room to add to powersets but one would hope said additions make a powerset more unique in how its played, built or customized rather than just making everything "easier".

[Sniktch]

A better way to view it: Some of the old sets have issues.  Stone Armor, Dark Armor,  and Regen most notably; they need to be improved some.  Some of the new sets have issues.  Bio, Rad, and Energy Aura are the most immediate to mind.  They need to be reined in some.

 

Just like all the other balance discussions, you can't "just buff never nerf".  Nor can you "just nerf never buff".  Both paths lead to a game's self-destruction.  Outliers at the top need to be brought down, and underperformers need to be brought up.

[Itikar]

My perception is that some sets have not aged well and reflect the time they were developed in. It's not necessarily something dramatical or that one cannot work around with relative ease, but in general some older powersets imho need an update or to be brought on par with the current state of the game. The case is most striking for ninja and stalkers, where being the first iteration of the set they get a power (smoke flash) that given how stalkers currently work is plain pointless. And probably was pointless even back then judging from what the old guides say and that such power can actually be obtained via day job. In contrast the other melee archetypes get KB protection at the same level stalkers get smoke flash.

 

Can't comment for dark armor and fiery aura since I have no experience with them, but the logic behind the reasoning is sound. Sometimes in order to normalize an unbalance you need to give some small buffs to underperformers, as the poster above me has just explained.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Itikar

[BrandX]

EA needs reigned in?  Isn't it's current setup it's step up from it's original setup?

[XaoGarrent]

51 minutes ago, BrandX said:

EA needs reigned in?  Isn't it's current setup it's step up from it's original setup?

This really tells you how seriously you should be taking this notion.

 

EA and Elec Armor (which really should have been mentioned beside it) are both sets that were buffed to be more competitive with the likes of Willpower. In fact, they both got the same buff: A self heal. That should tell you a bit about what this person is actually asking for: "Nerf everything back to flawed launch design, the same design the devs eventually backed away from for good reason." And before they protest: I'm fully aware that you may not realize that's what you're asking for, but that's the reality of what you would get if you go and start swinging the nerf hammer like that.

 

It should also be noted that one of the most important things Bio and Rad have in common that make them even a slight tier above Elec Armor and EA is a T9 that doesn't have a crash that makes it suicidal to use, a piece of design that stopped being used with Willpower. A piece of design that was actually REMOVED from Regen.

 

This isn't a simple matter of "nerf this thing." They're actually arguing to begin regressing back to old, bad design standards. Really, even the defense and resistance holes are that, while the live devs never stopped doing it, Willpower was, again, the point at which they first reeled it in, with it only being a partial hole and of an even more rare damage type than normal. We've also seen many sets get at least one type of exotic mezz resistance since then, and all sets have proper knock resists.

Edited October 18, 2019 by XaoGarrent

[Sniktch]

 

 

That would be my reference point for Energy Aura being over the top.  Not Titan Weapon level over-the-top, but the original devs overbuffed it, and not because of Energize.

 

So thanks, @XaoGarrent, for proving my dad's old saw about assume and alerting me to your overall quality as a poster.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

That would be my reference point for Energy Aura being over the top.  Not Titan Weapon level over-the-top, but the original devs overbuffed it, and not because of Energize.

 

So thanks, @XaoGarrent, for proving my dad's old saw about assume and alerting me to your overall quality as a poster.

An appeal to authority fallacy, a complete dodge, and some blather about your father, who frankly nobody here knows anything about?

 

You have some funny metrics regarding what constitutes quality, but that's fine. You can hold that loss.

[BrandX]

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

This really tells you how seriously you should be taking this notion.

 

EA and Elec Armor (which really should have been mentioned beside it) are both sets that were buffed to be more competitive with the likes of Willpower. In fact, they both got the same buff: A self heal. That should tell you a bit about what this person is actually asking for: "Nerf everything back to flawed launch design, the same design the devs eventually backed away from for good reason." And before they protest: I'm fully aware that you may not realize that's what you're asking for, but that's the reality of what you would get if you go and start swinging the nerf hammer like that.

 

It should also be noted that one of the most important things Bio and Rad have in common that make them even a slight tier above Elec Armor and EA is a T9 that doesn't have a crash that makes it suicidal to use, a piece of design that stopped being used with Willpower. A piece of design that was actually REMOVED from Regen.

 

This isn't a simple matter of "nerf this thing." They're actually arguing to begin regressing back to old, bad design standards. Really, even the defense and resistance holes are that, while the live devs never stopped doing it, Willpower was, again, the point at which they first reeled it in, with it only being a partial hole and of an even more rare damage type than normal. We've also seen many sets get at least one type of exotic mezz resistance since then, and all sets have proper knock resists.

 

Well, we can't say they would make all future sets have KB resist, as they could've decided that was a hole for some future set.

 

Though, I feel a few sets could use a tweaking in survival standards, and I'm not sure every set needs an exotic mezz resistance.  Though I'm sure some concept reason can be made for them in everything.

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, BrandX said:

Well, we can't say they would make all future sets have KB resist, as they could've decided that was a hole for some future set.

No, we certainly can't say that. Although..given shield, wp, bio and rad ALL have kb resist...and Nin for scrappers/sentys GOT kb resist added in..I think it is a pretty good bet.

As another example I noticed on my Rad scrapper...the aoe heal has an acc of 300. That is, 3 times the base value. That is utterly huge, and basically nothing else in game has an acc that high. it can also heal you with zero targets around you. Yes..zero. I am not saying the actual healing in the rad one is as good as dark regen (cause DR is totally awesome) but..those values seem a lil high.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

No, we certainly can't say that. Although..given shield, wp, bio and rad ALL have kb resist...and Nin for scrappers/sentys GOT kb resist added in..I think it is a pretty good bet.

As another example I noticed on my Rad scrapper...the aoe heal has an acc of 300. That is, 3 times the base value. That is utterly huge, and basically nothing else in game has an acc that high. it can also heal you with zero targets around you. Yes..zero. I am not saying the actual healing in the rad one is as good as dark regen (cause DR is totally awesome) but..those values seem a lil high.

WP didn't originally have KB resist when in beta.

I figured NIN was made by the HC crew, but it's KB resist is very weak (though, being a mostly defense based set, this isn't to bad).

 

Rad, I believe, was going to be a "Purchase to use" set, and those, with the exception of Dual Pistols, tend to perform on the top end.

[Itikar]

10 hours ago, BrandX said:

I figured NIN was made by the HC crew, but it's KB resist is very weak (though, being a mostly defense based set, this isn't to bad).

Yeah, apparently it's around -4, like a single IO, and can be selected at the earliest at level 28, so might not be optimal for exemplaring. It does have as a nice perk, however, that it gives some 7.5% smashing/lethal resistance.

[Razor Cure]

And, even better, you CAN slot +res IOs into teh power, with gives access to teh +def uniques, which would otherwise require Tough, or slotting in the self heal (both options aren't great).

[Snakebit]

Death shroud attacks every 2s for 12.51 damage and .52 end/s. So if we take accuracy and mob numbers out, you get 6.225 damage per second at .52 end cost. Over a minute that's 373.5 damage for 31.2 endurance. 

By comparison, Golden Drangonfly can attack 4.2 times in a minute for a total of 703 damage for 47.44 endurance. 

 

Adding .5 mobs to Death Shroud gives it 560 damage for 31.2 endurance. Even if you ran on 0/1 you are looking at 3-4 mobs per spawn, which skyrockets the dmg/end efficiency of damage auras. An 8 mob spawn gives a damage aura 2888 damage for 31.2 endurance over a minute. This is not including build up or crits. 

 

 

Damage auras don't need to be touched. 

[Razor Cure]

37 minutes ago, cejmp said:

Damage auras don't need to be touched.

You are cherry picking the situation. Comparing them alone, with NO other toggles is just silly. Even at +1 team size, GD would kill teh mob of 3 baddies faster than DS would. WAY fast if they are higher then even con to you. Also, as I mentioned, its useless saying that damage auras are fine..at level 50, with IOs and incarnate powers. The fact is, its hard to run then while leveling, as the low acc, huge end cost and meh damage just make it not worthwhile.

And dont forget a HUGE part of why the Dark Armour damage aura 'feels' worse than it is..is the crazy amount of other toggles the set has.

[Snakebit]

I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm talking about the ability of a single power to constantly provide a health debuff with zero interaction from the player other than optimal slotting. Auras are fine as is. 

[Sniktch]

The fix to Dark would be an either-or situation:  Either fill the KB hole so Acro isn't an 'intended' use power, OR shave END costs on all the toggles so running Acro isn't crippling.  No need to mess with any of the power effects, at all; I've got a Dark tank, and she is what Stone WISHES it was survivability-wise.

 

Regen: Debuff resistance and some refreshing layer of Absorb a la what some Blasters get as their sustain toggle.  Shakes off negatives quick and can survive an alpha within reason.

 

Stone:  Nuke from orbit and rebuild from the ground up.  Sorry, with the mess it's in because of how Granite operates, there really is no other way to bring it in-line right now.

 

Energy Aura:  It's over the line - but not by much.  The self-heal isn't the problem, Energy Absorbtion is.  Strike its +def component, run a beta on it.  If it's still tipping the needle, lower base values by ~2% on the rest of the toggles.

 

Bio:  The elephant in the room with Bio is Offensive Adaptation.  Compared to Efficient and Defensive, it might as well be called "Run THIS ONE!" instead of Offensive; the self-debuff is noticable but small enough to be worked around in a variety of ways, and the benefits.  Oh, the benefits.  Sentinels get 20% damage buff, plus a global movespeed buff, plus a ToHit buff, plus plus plus.  Scrappers get 32.5%, and their taunt aura's -res debuff gets stronger, and they get an extra tick of tox damage on every attack, and a ToHit buff, and and and.  For 0 END and -7.5% Resist.  The -resist only really matters on Energy/Neg, the two resists Bio is lacking in...except it gets decent if not softcapping Energy/Neg DEFENSE in-set, which makes it kind of moot.  The benefits of Offensive need to come down, and Efficient and Defensive need to get a little shinier to balance out, making the toggle juggle design of the set a reality instead of a fig-leaf.

 

And I say this having an MA/Bio Scrapper, Dark/Bio Sentinel, Dark/Rad Tank, and Claws/EA Stalker amongst my characters.

[Galaxy Brain]

Of all the secondaries, I dont see EA as over performing?

[Sniktch]

Checked some numbers.  Rechecked some numbers, threechecked some numbers.  EA on a Scrapper has better overall defense than Scrapper Ninjitsu - higher typed with a Psi hole versus lower positionals; Nin hits ~27% all positional, EA hits 24 Neg, 27 Smash/Lethal, and 30+ for Fire/Cold/Energy.  Thing to remember is there are a fair number of Psi attacks that lack a positional tag - they're purely typed, so to SR and Nin, they're exactly the same as to EA.  This is also not adding in Energy Drain, which can add 7% more on a full saturation; yes, you're likely to get less than 10 hits, but less better is still better.  EA has no Fire/Cold/Psi resist native, but has better total resists than Nin.  Energize is a better self-heal than Kuji-In-Sha, as it gives heal, +regen and End Discount as opposed to just heal and +Tox resist; the longer recharge is generally a nonfactor as both kits focus on not taking damage in the first place.  Energy Drain is arguably a better END recovery tool than Kyoyo, as it does more than just +End; also, it only needs 4 targets unenhanced to fill your blue bar, whereas Kyoyo caps out at 58%.  They're both on minute timers, so that's a wash.  Tier 9s are tier 9s.  And then we come to the kicker...EA's status protection is also its taunt aura is also up to 40% recharge bonus and a non-negligible -recharge on every tagged foe.  Versus Kuji-In-Rin, which does give decent Psi resist while consuming your auto pick. 

 

Note, this is all on SOs and no pool powers at all - mix in sets, and things start skewing harder and harder to EA, partly because Psi/Fire/Cold resist are much more accessible as set bonuses, partly because those same sets also tend to offer good typed defense bonuses and not-so-good positionals, and partly because EA has more variety of powers and thus can work more valuable sets.  But as I've said several times, sets cannot be a balance point because of their sheer variety.

 

Now, that big ol' block of text does not say EA is blowing doors off the universe.  It does say it's overperforming - mainly because of the +def in Energy Drain.  Not a huge amount, and I'd honestly be willing to count it as 'eh, close enough' in general.  But rolling specifics for other sets necessitates I do the same to EA as well.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Sniktch
missed a word

[FDR's Think Tank]

Should Bio Armor be balanced so the Adaptations balance with each other, or so they also balance with running no adaptation? Is Bio Armor 3 options that only functions as 1, or is it 4 only functioning as 1? What should Dartanian do?

[Sniktch]

15 hours ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Should Bio Armor be balanced so the Adaptations balance with each other, or so they also balance with running no adaptation? Is Bio Armor 3 options that only functions as 1, or is it 4 only functioning as 1? What should Dartanian do?

 

 

Efficient Adaptation has no debuffs associated with it and costs 0 END.  Thus, your question is moot - unless a player is skipping Adaptation entirely in which case they're knowingly choosing to play sub-optimal and thus outside balance parameters, Bio must be balanced around having one of the Adaptations running at all times from first availability.  The problem is, Defensive doesn't give enough worth for its -25% Damage debuff and reduction of the aura's -Resist effect; you can't use Offensive's self -resist as a comparison point because it's not present in Efficient either, and Defensive's +3% Defense and single-digit-per-attack heal are really NOT worth all you give up.

[Galaxy Brain]

Great write up @Sniktch! I guess it sort of puts it's toe over the line in that sense... but doesn't it also not have much DDR compared to SR and Nin?

[Sniktch]

Mids says Nin has MUCH worse DDR than EA - 35% unenhanceable for Nin, 52% unenhanceable for EA.  SR is the only one that seems to have enhanceable DDR; at base, it's only 62% but caps out at over 90%.  Thing is, that really is all SR has going for it; the scaling +resist is quite often a fig-leaf because of the way Cities combat flows.  Usually you take two big hits which flat-overwhelms the resist, or a medium and big hit, in rapid succession, which skips right over it - doesn't drop you low enough to gain any appreciable resist, then drops you right to the floor.  Further, EA and Nin both get always-on resist albeit at lower maximums, which makes SR's sorta-there, sorta-not, only great when you're nearly dead resist a lot less stellar.  And Quickness's +Recharge is half what an EA scrapper can get at Entropic Aura  saturation.  Even Stalker SR vs. Stalker EA, the +recharge is the same, leaving SR only 'advantaged' in the +movespeed and DDR departments.

 

Another factor I forgot to toss in:  EA gets -End, -Recovery, -Rech, and -Move resistances.  SR gets -Rech/-move from Quickness, and Nin gets Confuse/Fear protection, but neither gets bluebar guards.  Nin and SR do get +Perception - but again, that's a fig leaf; if you're not tangling with Banes, Night Widows, or Knives of Artemis, -Perception and Stealth are pretty much nonexistent.  There may be First Ward or Night Ward mobs that use Smoke Grenade etc., but I'm not aware of them, and it's still hugely niche even if there are.

 

The reason Energy Drain is the problem is when EA launched, Energy Drain was Conserve Power and PPPs didn't have Conserve Power.  When APPs were proliferated to redside and all Epic pools were expanded, the presence of Conserve Power in the Body and Energy pools necessitated that EA or those APPs change - EA got Energy Drain instead of Conserve Power, Scorpion picked up Conserve Power, Body changed from Conserve Power to Superior Conditioning, Energy Mastery kept Conserve Power.  Problem is, Energy Drain was a renamed clone of Energy Absorption from Ice - which is why it's got the defense buff per target that puts it past the marker.  It's not a big outlier, but it IS an outlier.  Not one I'd burn dev time on right now, to be honest - making Stone work in a way that isn't completely clusterfucked and reining in Bio should be first "hard work" passes as they're the furthest edges of the graph right now, and their eventual solutions one way or the other could change the overall midpoint.  Kind of like starting melee offensive balance with Titan and EA; hit the worst cases on both ends and see how that adjusts things.