pvp only accolades

[justicebeliever]

18 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

I for one, do not want parity.

I have yet to see any PvP'er asking for parity...They all seem to understand that they are a minority, and it's bad practice to, as you said, cater to such a small audience.

 

However, when they come to the forums asking for bug fixes, exploits closed, and the occasional QoL improvements, what they hear back is "Nobody does and nobody should care about PvP, you guys are the devil, and any time spent improving the game for you means that we will start dupin rares, and the game will be gone to the americans"

 

And that just sucks...I don't think PvP should have parity either, because they are such a small audience...but I'll be damned that they should be treated as second class players of the game. 

[macskull]

30 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

I for one, do not want parity. I've been an avid pvp player for as long as I've been gaming online. Starcraft, Diablo 2 pvp, Dark Ages of Camelot, Shadowbane, WoW, Mobas and too many more to name. I enjoy pvp and always have.

 

If one of the HC devs read so much as the OP of this thread, that's more dev investment into CoH pvp than I would like to see. It's a lost cause and it's a mess. With the recent thread on numbers of ATs and such, I would love to see a breakdown of the amount of time spent on PvE vs PvP. Most online game organizers have realized that investing in content that is only consumed by a fraction of a percent of your game population is not a winning strategy.

 

I feel for the PvP players, they can't win here because even if they do get some balancing people will be resentful because of the resources allocated, as well as any changes (even if they aren't nerfs) that spill over into pve. The ideal solution (IMO of course) would be for the dedicated PvP community to use the source code that is out there and create their own server where they can actually unfuck pvp and perhaps make it playable and interesting. This could also serve to consolidate the pvp population. I've not seen any discussion of anyone doing so however.

 

EDIT: I just wanted to say that I'm sure this post will anger some people but I prefer to be a realist. Devoting resources to something utilized by what I suspect is 1% of the population (possibly less) is not a good plan.

I'll bite.

 

PvP in this game has always had a small population. PvP in this game probably has a smaller population because 1) the game's subscriber base has always been small, 2) there really isn't any "goal-oriented" PvP, and 3) because of the nature of the mechanics PvP is much faster-paced and "twitchy" than any other MMO, which is probably the single best part about it. PvP in this game, even post-I13, ruined every other MMO's PvP because of how slow they all feel. It's more akin to an FPS than an MMO and that was one of things that drew players to it. The smaller population doesn't make it any less valid than any other aspect of the game. Sure, that means development resources may not be spent on it as much, but even during the years the private server was up there were at least some changes made to PvP. PvPers have a list of bug fixes and QoL requests and they are being worked on by the development team.

 

PvPers are realists - we know that large sweeping changes are not likely to happen but we can at least ask for some things within reason. This is one of those things. I think the "no one uses it so it's not worth any development time" argument is, quite frankly, complete horseshit and an insult to the people who do use it. Throughout this game's history it's been the underutilized aspects that have gotten attention - entire zones got overhauled because they weren't popular, powersets got buffed because no one played them. This isn't a commercial game with shareholders to appease anymore. I understand the development team is working on their own time but that doesn't mean things can't get done.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

30 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

I have yet to see any PvP'er asking for parity...They all seem to understand that they are a minority, and it's bad practice to, as you said, cater to such a small audience.

 

However, when they come to the forums asking for bug fixes, exploits closed, and the occasional QoL improvements, what they hear back is "Nobody does and nobody should care about PvP, you guys are the devil, and any time spent improving the game for you means that we will start dupin rares, and the game will be gone to the americans"

 

And that just sucks...I don't think PvP should have parity either, because they are such a small audience...but I'll be damned that they should be treated as second class players of the game. 

They aren't and shouldn't be treated as second class citizens, I absolutely agree. But I also feel that any investment of dev resources is a waste.

 

The resources are out there that the pvp community could literally code the changes themselves and work with homecoming to have them implement said changes here. (EDIT: With the closed source and change to 64bit client I supposed this may not be true anymore, I don't know enough about code to know for sure) If one of our existing devs is a PvP fan and wants to take on any pvp changes, more power to them I guess. Fixing a bug or an exploit is one thing, asking for a convenience feature so PvP players don't have to go grind pve like everyone else falls heavily into the realm of wasted dev time IMO.

 

For what it's worth, I think it's actually good idea. Reducing barriers to entry into pvp is always a good thing, however... lets be honest about it, this change is pretty unlikely to actually introduce new players to pvp, the interest simply isn't there. It will just let pvp players not have to go grind pve like everyone else has to.

 

I rarely run TFs of any sort and have not run a single iTrial since pre-shut down. It would be awful convenient if I could get the accolades just for zoning into an iTrial, and I'm at a handicap not having them (I have 0 accolades that I'm aware of on any HC character). This suggestion would be met with sheer ridicule. Seems like a bit of a double standard to ask for it in a different type of content to me.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

I rarely run TFs of any sort and have not run a single iTrial since pre-shut down. It would be awful convenient if I could get the accolades just for zoning into an iTrial, and I'm at a handicap not having them (I have 0 accolades that I'm aware of on any HC character). This suggestion would be met with sheer ridicule. Seems like a bit of a double standard to ask for it in a different type of content to me.

You're not at a handicap for not having accolades in PvE. You're being intentionally obtuse.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Waypoint]

1 hour ago, Warlawk said:

If one of the HC devs read so much as the OP of this thread, that's more dev investment into CoH pvp than I would like to see. It's a lost cause and it's a mess. With the recent thread on numbers of ATs and such, I would love to see a breakdown of the amount of time spent on PvE vs PvP. Most online game organizers have realized that investing in content that is only consumed by a fraction of a percent of your game population is not a winning strategy.

 

I feel for the PvP players, they can't win here because even if they do get some balancing people will be resentful because of the resources allocated, as well as any changes (even if they aren't nerfs) that spill over into pve. The ideal solution (IMO of course) would be for the dedicated PvP community to use the source code that is out there and create their own server where they can actually unfuck pvp and perhaps make it playable and interesting. This could also serve to consolidate the pvp population. I've not seen any discussion of anyone doing so however.

 

It's incredibly silly to think that QoL improvements and bug fixes would be detrimental to server development resources. While there's a minority asking for everything to be reverted back to pre-i13 PvP nerfs, the majority of us are asking for "simple" bug fixes and QoL improvements that would make us enjoy PvP more than we already do. We have open group arena matches every Wednesday and Saturday, along with at least five teams that scrim with each other daily for more competitive style PvP. 

 

Sure, it might not compare to asking for Tanker fixes, Celestial Body Control, Visual Effects for Eyeball Manipulation, but we've outlined most of what we'd like to see in the most realistic terms and means to improve what we like to do. Homecoming allows us to actually receive something that hasn't been given to PvP in a long time: attention and care. We aren't asking the devs completely stop work on PvE, but give us a check-in every now and then to see what could be improved on. It's been about 12 issues now. While we'd like to have our own dedicated server to do what we want with PvP, that's not currently possible. None of us can code, and none of us have the current resources to run and operate a server.

 

You might not like it, but we do. The improvements might be inconsequential to you, but they would mean a lot to us. Even if there are ~400 of us (per the PvP discord).

Edited September 1, 2019 by Waypoint

[Warlawk]

39 minutes ago, macskull said:

You're not at a handicap for not having accolades in PvE. You're being intentionally obtuse.

If you do not have accolades you have less endurance and consequentially less recovery. You have less HP and consequently less regeneration.

You are more likely to run out of resources and more likely to die to stray damage (or while tanking).

In what way is that not handicapped when compared to people who do have them?

 

Is the handicap as crippling as trying to pvp without them? No, but "these are really important" isn't exactly solid logic for getting features that most of the player base has to invest time and effort into acquiring just for zoning into your preferred content.

 

At any rate, best of luck to you! I just think it's important for both sides of a potential investment of the limited developer time to be presented.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

If you do not have accolades you have less endurance and consequentially less recovery. You have less HP and consequently less regeneration.

You are more likely to run out of resources and more likely to die to stray damage (or while tanking).

In what way is that not handicapped when compared to people who do have them?

 

Is the handicap as crippling as trying to pvp without them? No, but "these are really important" isn't exactly solid logic for getting features that most of the player base has to invest time and effort into acquiring just for zoning into your preferred content.

 

At any rate, best of luck to you! I just think it's important for both sides of a potential investment of the limited developer time to be presented.

To address your first point: I'm not going to argue that having the +hp/+end accolades in PvE doesn't make you more survivable, but I spent the first four months since the servers came back maining an un-accoladed SO'd Fire/Cold Corruptor and I had zero issues with staying alive. PvE in this game is incredibly easy because the AI is dumb and player characters are incredibly overpowered by comparison, even before figuring in inspirations, IOs, accolades, and incarnate powers.

 

NPCs don't deliberately target you because you have 20% less HP than the guy next to you. In a PvP environment, all other things being equal, you're going to get targeted more often and die faster because you have less time to react. It's not "these are really important," it's "these are essentially mandatory." I think @Waypointhit on most of what I'd say in addition. As an example, I know that roleplayers make up a small fraction of the game's population, yet on live the development team took the time to create and animate a power just for them (Walk, if you're curious). Roleplayers just got a status slash command in the last patch. Base builders have always been a tiny group but they just got a whole bunch of assets introduced in the last patch. See where I'm going with this?

[Warlawk]

21 minutes ago, macskull said:

It's not "these are really important," it's "these are essentially mandatory."

So, what exactly is preventing any pvp player from getting them? What makes the time of a PvP player more important than the time of anyone else? Just because you don't want to do it, and it's vitally important doesn't mean dev time should be devoted to it simply so that you can skip a grind on each alt. I mean, do you honestly see this bringing new players (in any sort of appreciable numbers) to pvp who otherwise would not have tried it? It jsut seems like a request for dev time to be devoted so that players of specific content don't have to go do content they don't want to.

 

23 minutes ago, macskull said:

PvE in this game is incredibly easy because the AI is dumb and player characters are incredibly overpowered by comparison, even before figuring in inspirations, IOs, accolades, and incarnate powers.

I mean... it's incredibly easy right? So go get the accolades... only thing stopping pvp players from doing so is the desire to do it. No other barriers.

[macskull]

27 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

So, what exactly is preventing any pvp player from getting them? What makes the time of a PvP player more important than the time of anyone else? Just because you don't want to do it, and it's vitally important doesn't mean dev time should be devoted to it simply so that you can skip a grind on each alt. I mean, do you honestly see this bringing new players (in any sort of appreciable numbers) to pvp who otherwise would not have tried it? It jsut seems like a request for dev time to be devoted so that players of specific content don't have to go do content they don't want to.

 

I mean... it's incredibly easy right? So go get the accolades... only thing stopping pvp players from doing so is the desire to do it. No other barriers.

Nothing is preventing anyone from getting them and no one is saying the time of a PvPer is more important than anyone else. This is a QoL request, one that PvPers have been asking for for a long time, nothing else. Imagine the outrage if PvE'ers were forced to PvP in order to get necessary items for their characters. We accept that we're going to have to PvE at least sometimes to get our PvP characters ready but eliminating some of the grind would be nice. Do I see it bringing in new players in appreciable numbers? No, not really - but that's not why it's being asked for.

 

Sure, it's easy, and we do it because we have to. It's not the ease of doing it, it's the grind. Takes longer to accolade a character than it does to level them, normally. What we're asking for is to not have to. I'd be willing to bet most of us don't bother accolading our PvE characters because there's not much reason to.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Nothing is preventing anyone from getting them and no one is saying the time of a PvPer is more important than anyone else. This is a QoL request, one that PvPers have been asking for for a long time, nothing else. Imagine the outrage if PvE'ers were forced to PvP in order to get necessary items for their characters. We accept that we're going to have to PvE at least sometimes to get our PvP characters ready but eliminating some of the grind would be nice. Do I see it bringing in new players in appreciable numbers? No, not really - but that's not why it's being asked for.

 

Sure, it's easy, and we do it because we have to. What we're asking for is to not have to. I'd be willing to bet most of us don't bother accolading our PvE characters because there's not much reason to.

So you've already stated the content is easy. You've chosen to do an entirely optional and voluntary part of content, and you don't want to invest the time (the content is easy, so the only investment is time right?) to get the tools to do your chosen content? That's... not really quality of life, that not wanting to do the same thing everyone else has to do if they want to get it. Anyone can get it, no barriers. There's literally nothing keeping you from getting it except that you don't want to go do it.

 

Doesn't strike me as a terribly compelling argument for investment of development time.

[macskull]

Your argument would make sense if PvE had anything to do with PvP, but it doesn't. Let me be clear - I'm perfectly fine with spending the time to get the stuff on my PvE characters because that's doing PvE to improve my PvE experience. I'm trying to minimize the amount of PvE I have to do to improve my PvP experience. How do you not understand how those are different?

 

EDIT: You've already said earlier in this thread that you think this suggestion is a good idea so at this point it seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing and as such I won't be responding any further.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

17 minutes ago, macskull said:

Your argument would make sense if PvE had anything to do with PvP, but it doesn't. Let me be clear - I'm perfectly fine with spending the time to get the stuff on my PvE characters because that's doing PvE to improve my PvE experience. I'm trying to minimize the amount of PvE I have to do to improve my PvP experience. How do you not understand how those are different?

So essentially, because you don't want to invest the time to get the reward, the devs should program it in for you?

We've established it's not difficult to get.
The primary investment is time.

You've chosen to play completely optional content enjoy by a tiny minority of the player base.

You don't want to invest the time needed to get the tools necessary to enjoy said content.

 

"I have to have this to have fun. I could go get this, but I don't want to. Devs, give it to me for free?"

 

How many people enjoy grinding accolades? I'm sure there are a few, but the vast majority do not. Again, what makes your time more valuable that it should be programmed to give you something free instead? I mean, I realize the tone is getting a little strained here but this is pretty much textbook entitlement. You don't want to go and earn it even though it's easy, and are asking a game to be reprogrammed to give it to you for free. The only barrier to acquiring it is time invested.

 

EDIT: And while we're tossing out tact and being blunt. CoH is a PvE game. It always has been. Everyone knows this, it's not a surprise. Coming to a PvE centric game and then expecting coding changes so you don't have to do PvE in order to PvP (purely of your own choice) is some seriously entitled behavior.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

NPCs don't deliberately target you because you have 20% less HP than the guy next to you. In a PvP environment, all other things being equal, you're going to get targeted more often and die faster because you have less time to react.

... I have a question.  How exactly are they going to know you have fewer hitpoints?

Sure, sure, if they take the time to scroll through your badges, they'll see you don't have the accolades.  But that's time they'e spent scrolling through your badges, not fighting you, not even dodging very effectively.

 

And they can't know what your IO slotting looks like.  Maybe you have enough set bonusses that you actually have 5% more hitpoints, or something ...

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

... I have a question.  How exactly are they going to know you have fewer hitpoints?

Sure, sure, if they take the time to scroll through your badges, they'll see you don't have the accolades.  But that's time they'e spent scrolling through your badges, not fighting you, not even dodging very effectively.

 

And they can't know what your IO slotting looks like.  Maybe you have enough set bonusses that you actually have 5% more hitpoints, or something ...

That's a good question - you can see your target's HP and end in the target window. For example, I know a Blaster's HP cap is 1847, and if everyone is in Pocket D waiting for a match to start I can click on people to see that. If I see one of the other team's Blasters only has 1600 HP you can bet I'm going to be calling them as a target more often. I might not know exactly what someone's IO slotting looks like but I know what the general build philosophy for PvP characters is (basically, with very few exceptions reaching your AT's HP cap is #1) so I know roughly what their build looks like.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[PaxArcana]

Fair enough.

[kelly Rocket]

4 hours ago, Moonshades said:

I feel like I've said this ad nauseum in a few different threads over the last week (including this one) but once again, you don't need to have Shivans or Warburg nukes or any other pvp baubles to complete any content in pve. Therefore you don't have to go to get them. 

 

The suggested PvP buffs have nothing to do with pve content at all and in fact would benefit you as well whenever you go Bloody Bay to get your Shivans.

And I'll say it again: I don't "need" Shivans the same way they don't "need" the buffs from accolades!

 

IT'S STILL AN ADVANTAGE!

 

And the damn PvPers can have it when I CAN GET SHIVANS WITHOUT GOING TO BLOODY BAY AND NOT ONE SECOND BEFORE!

[macskull]

13 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

And I'll say it again: I don't "need" Shivans the same way they don't "need" the buffs from accolades!

 

IT'S STILL AN ADVANTAGE!

 

And the damn PvPers can have it when I CAN GET SHIVANS WITHOUT GOING TO BLOODY BAY AND NOT ONE SECOND BEFORE!

For what it's worth, I would say Bloody Bay is completely empty 99.9% of the time so it's functionally a PvE zone, and it takes all of about 5 minutes to get your Shivans.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

For what it's worth, I would say Bloody Bay is completely empty 99.9% of the time so it's functionally a PvE zone, and it takes all of about 5 minutes to get your Shivans.

But why should he they have to invest that time in pvp content to get the level of performance he they want in pve?

I mean, that's the core argument here right?

 

Edit: Corrected my assumption.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[macskull]

Just now, Warlawk said:

But why should he have to invest that time in pvp content to get the level of performance he wants in pve?

I mean, that's the core argument here right?

Going into a PvP zone devoid of players isn't "investing that time in PvP content."

[Warlawk]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Going into a PvP zone devoid of players isn't "investing that time in PvP content."

Pick one

EDIT: Why is your time more valuable? They don't want to visit pvp content for a pve advantage and you dismiss that because they may not get ganked. Yet your unwillingness to do pve in a pve centric game is somehow more valid?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

Pick one

Well, since you'd be the only player in the zone, by definition you couldn't possibly engage in player versus player content.

 

For what it's worth, before I started PvPing I also tended to avoid things that required me to go into PvP zones. If I wanted to get temp powers or buffs I'd check and see if anyone else was in the zone, and if they were I just waited until later. It's not hard to avoid PvP in a PvP zone if you don't want to engage in it.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

Well, since you'd be the only player in the zone, by definition you couldn't possibly engage in player versus player content.

 

For what it's worth, before I started PvPing I also tended to avoid things that required me to go into PvP zones. If I wanted to get temp powers or buffs I'd check and see if anyone else was in the zone, and if they were I just waited until later. It's not hard to avoid PvP in a PvP zone if you don't want to engage in it.

It's content that person does not want to engage in. Same as you. The likelyhood of a pvp encounter does nothing to change that it is forced content to acquire a reward. How is that different from asking for accolades without doing the content.

 

They want X but do not want to do Y because they dislike that content.

You want A but do not wand want to do B because you dislike that content.

 

Why is your time or your enjoyment of content for the reward more important than theirs? Because you seem to be completely dismissing their case because you don't happen to agree with their viewpoint.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk
Spelling

[macskull]

13 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

It's content that person does not want to engage in.

Refer to my previous point - I'm guessing that poster doesn't want to engage in PvP and so avoids those zones. That's understandable, but what I'm getting at is if there are no other players in that zone (which is the case almost all the time) then it's functionally identical to any other zone in the game. They're literally not engaging in the content they don't want to engage in and still getting something out of it (i.e. temp powers, buffs, etc.).

 

I'll reiterate an edit to one of my earlier posts - you have already said you support the idea in the OP, but now you're suddenly deciding it's entitlement and you're against it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and I don't have the inclination to indulge that any further.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth I'm sure there would be an uproar if Shivans/Warburg nukes were removed from the game entirely, even though the majority of the players don't care to venture into PvP zones. I'd be totally okay with making them obtainable by different means.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

24 minutes ago, macskull said:

Refer to my previous point - I'm guessing that poster doesn't want to engage in PvP and so avoids those zones. That's understandable, but what I'm getting at is if there are no other players in that zone (which is the case almost all the time) then it's functionally identical to any other zone in the game. They're literally not engaging in the content they don't want to engage in and still getting something out of it (i.e. temp powers, buffs, etc.).

 

I'll reiterate an edit to one of my earlier posts - you have already said you support the idea in the OP, but now you're suddenly deciding it's entitlement and you're against it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and I don't have the inclination to indulge that any further.

It is a PvP zone where PvP is the intended function of the zone. The content was designed to house PvP and the missions and layout of the zone were designed to bring players into conflict with each other. Regardless if there are players there to fight or not, it is PvP content.

 

In point of fact, I did not say I supported the idea in the OP.

3 hours ago, Warlawk said:

Fixing a bug or an exploit is one thing, asking for a convenience feature so PvP players don't have to go grind pve like everyone else falls heavily into the realm of wasted dev time IMO.

...

For what it's worth, I think it's actually good idea.

I think the idea itself is good. I think that looked at within the context of HC and the limited development resources therein, it's a waste and expecting those resources to be used solely because you can't be bothered to go spend the time to earn them yourself is completely entitled behavior.

 

The ONLY barrier to having those rewards is spending the time to go get them. Is there another barrier that has not been brought up which is something other than "I don't want to go play the game to get the rewards built as a reward for playing the game?"

 

EDIT: I believe it was already mentioned in this thread but... Justin offers free leveling to 50, free enhancements and all accolades are granted for free at level 1. If pvp players want equal footing instead of the opportunity to gank unprepared and unskilled opponents it is the ideal playground for PvP. Additionally the PvP community tends to have excellent mechanical understanding of the game and would be a great resource to catch and document bugs. Everyone wins. The only argument I've seen against this is "Well, we don't want to." Same as the reasoning for free accolades.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[kelly Rocket]

31 minutes ago, macskull said:

Refer to my previous point - I'm guessing that poster doesn't want to engage in PvP and so avoids those zones. That's understandable, but what I'm getting at is if there are no other players in that zone (which is the case almost all the time) then it's functionally identical to any other zone in the game. They're literally not engaging in the content they don't want to engage in and still getting something out of it (i.e. temp powers, buffs, etc.).

 

I'll reiterate an edit to one of my earlier posts - you have already said you support the idea in the OP, but now you're suddenly deciding it's entitlement and you're against it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and I don't have the inclination to indulge that any further.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth I'm sure there would be an uproar if Shivans/Warburg nukes were removed from the game entirely, even though the majority of the players don't care to venture into PvP zones. I'd be totally okay with making them obtainable by different means.

It's absolutely not functionally identical because I have to deal with the anxiety of knowing someone might show up and try to kill me, and I don't want to have to deal with that.

 

If there were pvp-disabled versions of those zones where you could go to get those things, I'd be fine with that.