pvp only accolades

[PaxArcana]

Personally, I rather like the idea that came up later in the thread: strip away all accolade effects in PvP zones, but apply a zone-wide buff to every player that exactly mirrors the effects of those accolades.

 

No-one gets the accolades (and their shiny badges) without actually doing the work ... but everyone gets a level playing field, without those who DID put in the work getting the short end of the stick.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

Personally, I rather like the idea that came up later in the thread: strip away all accolade effects in PvP zones, but apply a zone-wide buff to every player that exactly mirrors the effects of those accolades.

Isn't that the suggestion on the table?  Am I missing something?

 

 

[PaxArcana]

18 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Isn't that the suggestion on the table?  Am I missing something?

That was a modification.  The original suggestion was a way to get those accolades through purely PvP activities, in the PvP zones.  (Which IMO would have cheapened them.)

[justicebeliever]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

That was a modification.  The original suggestion was a way to get those accolades through purely PvP activities, in the PvP zones.  (Which IMO would have cheapened them.)

I swear I am not picking a fight, but isn't what you said the same as this:

On 8/30/2019 at 2:18 PM, macskull said:

You are fundamentally misunderstanding what the OP is asking for - he's asking for the existing accolade powers to be available for PvP (arena/zone/whatever) without having to grind PvE content to unlock them, not asking for new PvP-specific accolades. With the current state of PvP the stat-boosting accolades are pretty much a requirement to be competitive.

 

[PaxArcana]

On 8/30/2019 at 5:18 PM, macskull said:

he's asking for the existing accolade powers to be available for PvP (arena/zone/whatever) without having to grind PvE content to unlock them,

This is the important part, Justice.  You seem to have missed it, from in the middle of the very bit you quoted.

 

Macskull says the request is for "accolades [in] PvP without having to grind PvE" ... IOW, "gimmeh teh shineez nao kthxbai".

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[Moonshades]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

So strip everything that isn't PvP out of the PvP zones would be your preference?

100% no. Everything that is in pvp zones is PvP and was put in as a reward for people willing to risk going into those zones to obtain them. That hasn't changed, other than the decrease actual risk of being attacked by players these days. The perceived risk should be maintained however. 

 

Moving the rewards out of PvP zones is just one more thing to benefit pve while saying screw you to PvP. 

 

Once again, you don't need those Shivans to do pve content, but you can risk it if you want to. I probably won't be there to stop you... But I might be!

[justicebeliever]

24 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

This is the important part, Justice.  You seem to have missed it, from in the middle of the very bit you quoted.

 

Macskull says the request is for "accolades [in] PvP without having to grind PvE" ... IOW, "gimmeh teh shineez nao kthxbai".

Again, it’s only in PvP zones where this would happen.  They wouldn’t leave the zone with the accolade.

 

So I ask again, how does their lack of grinding impact PvE?  Or you?

[macskull]

23 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

This is the important part, Justice.  You seem to have missed it, from in the middle of the very bit you quoted.

 

Macskull says the request is for "accolades [in] PvP without having to grind PvE" ... IOW, "gimmeh teh shineez nao kthxbai".

Once again going to point out that asking to not have to do some PvE in order to be competitive in PvP isn't "gimme teh shineez nao kthxbai," whatever the hell that means. If the concern is "giving things to people for free," here's a few counter examples:

 

Until I19, Fitness was an optional power pool that was practically required for every build. Where was the outrage when the pool was made inherent? Until I17, Khelds/SoA required a level 50 on the account to be unlocked. Where was the outrage when the unlock level was changed to 20? Until I21 you had to be level 14 and take a prerequisite power to get a travel power. Where was the outrage when this was changed to level 4 with no prerequisite? Until I12 you always had a base 75% chance to hit an even-con NPC regardless of your level. Where was the outrage when the beginner's luck mechanic was added? Until I19 you had to know which zones had Yellow Line and which zones had Green Line trains and zone-hop to get where you wanted. Where was the outrage when the train lines were merged?

 

If there was any outrage about any of those (all QoL improvements, by the way), it was from the "I had to do it so they should too" crowd which honestly smacks more of entitlement than the people asking for those changes. "I had to do it so they should too" is, quite frankly, a pretty shitty way to justify withholding QoL improvements.

[PaxArcana]

17 minutes ago, macskull said:

Until I19, Fitness was an optional power pool that was practically required for every build. Where was the outrage when the pool was made inherent? Until I17, Khelds/SoA required a level 50 on the account to be unlocked. Where was the outrage when the unlock level was changed to 20? Until I21 you had to be level 14 and take a prerequisite power to get a travel power. Where was the outrage when this was changed to level 4 with no prerequisite? Until I12 you always had a base 75% chance to hit an even-con NPC regardless of your level. Where was the outrage when the beginner's luck mechanic was added? Until I19 you had to know which zones had Yellow Line and which zones had Green Line trains and zone-hop to get where you wanted. Where was the outrage when the train lines were merged?

I last played Live at the end of Issue 13, so I wasn't here to be "outraged" by any of that (which, by the by, is overblowing my reaction by at least an order of magnitude - I would merely say "opposed"), except the beginner's luck.  Which was done primarily to help new players not be put off by low to-hit rates, when they were just getting started in the game (and had no sugar daddy alts to keep them supplied with enhancements).

 

And aside from changing when EATs and VEATs unlock, those weren't cases of getting things without working for them.  Everyone got Fitness, everyone (except a rare few oddballs) got a Travel power.

 

Accolades are things you have to work for.

 

And to be completely honest, I care less about the accolade POWERS (hence, supporting the idea of a zone-wide buff that replicates them, in a way that doesn't stack with any existing accolade powers you DO have) .... than I do about the BADGES.  You want that shiny Watchman Badge?  Earn it, the same way everyone else does.  You want it's effect in PvP zones and arenas?  A zone-wide buff should suffice.

 

Otherwise .... why should I have to engage in PvP, in order to earn a badge like Disruptor or Time Machinist ...?  What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, after all ...

 

((On a related note, I am sad that you no longer have to do the Cape mission to earn the right to wear one.  That change sucks balls. 😢 )) 

[PaxArcana]

49 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Again, it’s only in PvP zones where this would happen.  They wouldn’t leave the zone with the accolade.

 

So I ask again, how does their lack of grinding impact PvE?  Or you?

I'm fine, as I've said multiple times now, with zone-wide buffs that give all the effects of accolade powers.  What I am not fine with, is giving the actual Accolades (and thus, badges) by alternate means.

 

Effects:  zone-wide buff, good to go.

Actual badges: earn 'em or live without 'em.

[Dan Petro]

8 hours ago, Warlawk said:

Alright, I'll post an equally easy to understand scenario, and I won't even have to throw in personal attacks to get there.

 

A small number of PvP players come to a game that is heavily PvE focused, always has been and to all appearances always will be. This is embraced by the vast majority of the players of said game.

 

The small number of PvP players then choose to participate in a completely optional and voluntary activity called PvP.

 

To gain advantages in PvP, these players feel that they must have certain shiny bits which are only obtainable through PvE.

 

These players decide that even though this is a PvE focused game, which was known coming into this situation, they do not want to invest the time to obtain said PvE shiny bits and the coding of the game should be changed utilizing very limited development resources so that they don't have to invest the same amount of time everyone else does to get the same result.

 

Alternative solution to the OP. Disable all accolades in pvp. Even playing field, no investment of time needed.

 

Okay, so you didn't address mine, but I'll address yours directly.

 

 This game has a long history of making QoL improvements for everyone PvE and PVP related.   This server specifically has made massive QoL improvements to remove the obtuseness of a subscription based game that had the primary purpose of making money.  See PvP IO drop tables, see incarnates through vet levels, see universal conversions, see booster pack seeding on the market, see salvage seeding on the market, see easy emails of just about any currency (especially emp merits).  

 

There is essentially historical precedent of lowering the bar for entry for incarnate level powers, where before you needed leagues of heroes to get together to do trials, you now just need to clear any level 50 content to unlock powers that are specifically overtuned for non incarnate content.

 

So why make this suggestion? Because the devs have shown willingness in the past to remove barriers of entry for PvE'ers that eases the grind and improves their play experience.  

 

I don't mind personal insults.  If I see an adult eating glue straight from the tube, they can live their own life, but if that person is offering out ideas it is probably best that those listening know where that person is coming from..  You are an idiot who is just arguing for the sake of arguing with something you have no stake in and know very little about, and if and when someone reads this thread and see's all this opposition out of now where, one hopes they will see you and what you are doing for what it is. 

 

*edit* Also, you never directly addressed the scenario I suggested to you, so I'm guessing your ignoring it completely was pretty much an admission of how it would be reasonable if the shoe was on the other foot.  While it was a solid move to call out personal insults, to make it seem like your position was coming from a moral high ground, neglecting to even address the scenario presented definitely cost you some points.  You need to step your Forum PvP up there! 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dan Petro

[macskull]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

I'm fine, as I've said multiple times now, with zone-wide buffs that give all the effects of accolade powers.  What I am not fine with, is giving the actual Accolades (and thus, badges) by alternate means.

 

Effects:  zone-wide buff, good to go.

Actual badges: earn 'em or live without 'em.

I'd venture that even among people who get the accolades and don't even consider stepping foot in PvP, only a small portion of them actually give two shits about the badges - they're after the bonuses.

[PaxArcana]

And I'll wager that I don't give a damn if they care or not.  I care about the badges, and I'm probably (almost certainly) not alone in that.

 

If you want the badge, you work for it.  If you don't want to work for it, then you don't really want the badge.

 

And since badges (divorced from attached powers or effects) have no impact on gameplay, then it seems to me, that you also care about the badges, if you're going to argue you should get them without earning them.

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

And I'll wager that I don't give a damn if they care or not.  I care about the badges, and I'm probably (almost certainly) not alone in that.

 

If you want the badge, you work for it.  If you don't want to work for it, then you don't really want the badge.

 

And since badges (divorced from attached powers or effects) have no impact on gameplay, then it seems to me, that you also care about the badges, if you're going to argue you should get them without earning them.

I don't care about the badges. Like, at all. Almost all my characters have the badges you get from leveling and accolading and that's it, apart from a few incidentals. I care about the accolade powers that are granted as a result of getting the badge. You're arguing semantics at this point.

 

Setting aside any in-game bonuses you get from badges, what does earning a badge get you, other than adding one more to your total badge count, or a new character title, or bragging rights? Absolutely nothing. I'm never going to go out of my way to get the Really Hard Way badge, for example, because other than the thing I just listed, I get nothing out of it.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[justicebeliever]

21 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

I'm fine, as I've said multiple times now, with zone-wide buffs that give all the effects of accolade powers.  What I am not fine with, is giving the actual Accolades (and thus, badges) by alternate means.

 

Effects:  zone-wide buff, good to go.

Actual badges: earn 'em or live without 'em.

Then I think we (me, you, and the PvPer’s are on the same page)

[macskull]

I don't think anyone specified accolades versus accolade powers previously because that's a distinction that should have been obvious, in my opinion.

[MunkiLord]

It was very obvious. 

[vinnie_]

I would very much like to see zone/arena specific buffs that apply stat boosting accolade equivalent increases to players. 

 

Those that had the equivalent accolades simply wouldn't receive that specific buff. I'm assuming that's a coding nightmare, but I think it'd really help the PvP community.

[Kimuji]

What I find funny is that no one seems interested in the much simpler solution: disable accolades bonuses for PVP. It acheives the exact same result as giving a free buff to everyone, it's just as fair and balanced. No one getting the bonus is strictly the same as everyone getting it. But it's almost like getting the accolades benefits more easily is more important than achieving balance. Curious...

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji

[PaxArcana]

3 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

What I find funny is that no one seems interested in the much simpler solution: disable accolades bonuses for PVP.

I'd be very interested, but I am already stridently opposed to most PvP ideas that might step on PvE's toes, that I'm willing to give ground on the version that also offers a zone-wide buff of equivalent effect.

 

3 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

But it's almost like getting the accolades benefits more easily is more important than achieving balance. Curious...

... which is a large part of why I'm so stridently opposed to this idea in specific.

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[justicebeliever]

8 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

What I find funny is that no one seems interested in the much simpler solution: disable accolades bonuses for PVP. It acheives the exact same result as giving a free buff to everyone, it's just as fair and balanced. No one getting the bonus is strictly the same as everyone getting it. But it's almost like getting the accolades benefits more easily is more important than achieving balance. Curious...

It’s true that it’s 6 of one and half dozen of the other.  I don’t know that it’s curious, since it is the same either way.  I’d rather get a buff than have something suppressed, so it makes since to frame it the way they did.  Does it really matter and is it worth the further debate it could

produce?

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Setting aside any in-game bonuses you get from badges, what does earning a badge get you, other than adding one more to your total badge count, or a new character title, or bragging rights? Absolutely nothing.

A sense of satisfaction.

 

...

 

I collect currency.  Foreign, old, unusual.  I don't get anything from most of it, except the pleasure of having them.

 

For example, I have a paper bank note, over eighty years old, with a face value of 500,000.

 

That's 500,000 Reichsmarks, issed in Austria in 1938 or 1939.  It literally isn't even worth the paper it's printed on, except to a fellow collector.  But, I can say "I have a paper bank note with a face value of half a million", and I can also say "I have a relic of the Nazi regime".

 

I also have almost two dozen roman coins, minted between 500BCE and 500CE.  They're tiny little specks of bronze.  All twenty of them cost some thirty or forty dollars on Amazon.com - they were found in a hoard that had over a hundred thousand of the things, IIRC.  They're not even worth the weight of the metal in them ... and being bronze, not pure copper, and truly MINISCULE ... even that isn't worth much.  But, I get to pick one up, and hold something almost two thousand years old in my hand.

 

In both cases, it's the sense of history I care about - not any real or tangible benefit.

 

It's the same with badges in CoH.  It's the pleasure of collecting them - and not having them all just handed to me, but having to go forth and collect, young man.  That's what I get from them.

 

...

 

Let me ask you a counter-question: why do you care that I value the badges enough, not to want people to get it without working for them?  That includes myself, by the by.  I think I had, like, TWO accolades back on Live.  None here.  I didn't earn 'em, so I didn't (and still don't) have them ... as it should be.

 

If you truly don't care about the actual badges, if you don't want them easier or for free ... why not support the "suppress and buff-replace" version?

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

It’s true that it’s 6 of one and half dozen of the other.  I don’t know that it’s curious, since it is the same either way.  I’d rather get a buff than have something suppressed, so it makes since to frame it the way they did.  Does it really matter and is it worth the further debate it could

produce?

It's really not worth further debate, because all the opposition can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it."  It's no more complicated than that.

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

It's really not worth further debate, because all the opposition can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it."  It's no more complicated than that.

Straw man.

 

It's true, I dislike PvP.  Or rather, I should say, I dislike 99.999% of the people I encounter in PvP.

 

But I don't oppose anything and everything PvP just because of that.  I very specifically oppose things that would intrude upon PvE (including by cheapening the achievement of earning an accolade badge via PvE means), and I very specifically oppose things that would drag PvEers largely-unwillingly into PvP enabled areas.

 

An analogy for you:  I've got nothing against corn, and I've got nothing against rice pilaf.  I just don't want them to touch and/or mix on my plate.

[MunkiLord]

I stand by my statement and how I have summed up all the opposition in this thread.