New Archetype: Protector (support/melee)

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

no But Leo and Cpt Powerhouse tried and rejected the Guardian that's now on rebirth for similar reasons

But yet it gets proposed ..

 

Or a variant that is basically the same thing gets proposed ..

 

Every couple of weeks

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

and the general purpose, which is what I believe is the problem,  don't get me wrong, this is much better thought out than the original Guardian, it's just the base premise is flawed I think

You're going to have to back that up.  There is, as far as I can see, no reason to think the base premise of buff/melee is flawed.  Justify your statement, perhaps?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

and the general purpose, which is what I believe is the problem,  don't get me wrong, this is much better thought out than the original Guardian, it's just the base premise is flawed I think

On the more macro sense, its the same idea.

 

Basically Support+Melee

 

 

[boggo2300]

Just now, Haijinx said:

But yet it gets proposed ..

 

Or a variant that is basically the same thing gets proposed ..

 

Every couple of weeks

 

 

Honestly, I think the LAST thing the game needs at the moment is more AT's with the inherent added complexity to balance everything, I'm not even sure which niche this is supposed to fill that isn't already covered by existing AT's (I feel the same about Sentinels if I'm honest)

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

You're going to have to back that up.  There is, as far as I can see, no reason to think the base premise of buff/melee is flawed.  Justify your statement, perhaps?

it's NOT FUN (I played a beta of the original guardian)

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

it's NOT FUN (I played a beta of the original guardian)

I'm asking for more.  because That one was not fun does not therefore imply that the basic premise of buff/melee is not fun.  WHY was that one not fun?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

You're going to have to back that up.  There is, as far as I can see, no reason to think the base premise of buff/melee is flawed.  Justify your statement, perhaps?

Or perhaps the other way around.

 

Many of us feel adding a new AT should be very rare.  Thus the need should be compelling.

 

Often its an excuse to get some broken inherent or some unbalanced sets of stats introduced.

 

For example.  If we prolifered some Assault sets to Corruptors, you could basically do the Support+ Melee thing, without changing the game's character all that much.  Since the inherent, hp, epics, etc already are hashed out.

 

But proponents always want the new AT.  And to me that suggests something.

[Leogunner]

42 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Well, I'm not really convinced that they need anything "unique" in that sense, Corruptors don't really have anything like that.  But I'll play along.

Scourge is pretty unique.  Sure, it's just "crits" which both Stalkers and Scrappers do...but no ranged AT does AND it has unique mechanics that trigger it.  That's unique.

 

43 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

First, this is not meant to be a hybrid dps/support class.  It is meant to be a pure support class, like Defenders.  So perhaps, first, the buffs need to be a little stronger, close to Defender strength.

No one said anything about DPS although an argument could be made that having an offensive secondary DOES make Defender a partial DPS AT.

 

But I said hybrid melee and support.  Whatever a melee AT tends to try to accomplish could be what one considered "melee" which could also include keeping targets away from other teammembers or acting as a focal point (drawing foes toward you) for the rest of the team.

 

Whether it's meant to be a pure support SHOULD rely on what the AT can't do and then gauge if such a niche is unique.  Do we need more pure support ATs?  Maybe so...then what CAN'T this support AT do to justify the things it can do?

 

48 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Now how about something like this:  What if their Placate gave a 10 second buff to Heals, Defense Buffs, Damage Resistance Buffs, ToHit Debuffs, Defense DeBuffs, etc.?

Power Build Up?  Why not just scrap placate all together and make a new power instead?

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

For example.  If we prolifered some Assault sets to Corruptors, you could basically do the Support+ Melee thing, without changing the game's character all that much.  Since the inherent, hp, epics, etc already are hashed out.

THIS

Power proliferation is a MUCH better method of filling these edge cases and have far less of a danger of screwing up AT=AT Balance

[Wavicle]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Or perhaps the other way around.

 

Many of us feel adding a new AT should be very rare.  Thus the need should be compelling.

 

Often its an excuse to get some broken inherent or some unbalanced sets of stats introduced.

 

For example.  If we prolifered some Assault sets to Corruptors, you could basically do the Support+ Melee thing, without changing the game's character all that much.  Since the inherent, hp, epics, etc already are hashed out.

 

But proponents always want the new AT.  And to me that suggests something.

I'm trying to work within the system that currently exists.  Profilerating melee attacks to corruptors is not justified within the existing system.  Corruptors are a ranged dps AT, by design.  The design of the game suggests that to have buff with melee a new AT would have to be created.

I agree that adding a new AT should be rare.  There are only a couple spots left.  One is buff with melee.  Another is Pets on a DPS class with perhaps a small amount of armor, but Not buffs.  That's about it.  Everything else is already filled.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

THIS

Power proliferation is a MUCH better method of filling these edge cases and have far less of a danger of screwing up AT=AT Balance

There's a difference between power proliferation and completely mucking up the ATs.

 

Why not "proliferate" support sets to Tankers?  It makes no damned sense but it's the same premise and likely would screw with balance in more ways that we know.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Scourge is pretty unique.  Sure, it's just "crits" which both Stalkers and Scrappers do...but no ranged AT does AND it has unique mechanics that trigger it.  That's unique.

 

No one said anything about DPS although an argument could be made that having an offensive secondary DOES make Defender a partial DPS AT.

 

But I said hybrid melee and support.  Whatever a melee AT tends to try to accomplish could be what one considered "melee" which could also include keeping targets away from other teammembers or acting as a focal point (drawing foes toward you) for the rest of the team.

 

Whether it's meant to be a pure support SHOULD rely on what the AT can't do and then gauge if such a niche is unique.  Do we need more pure support ATs?  Maybe so...then what CAN'T this support AT do to justify the things it can do?

 

Power Build Up?  Why not just scrap placate all together and make a new power instead?

Scourge is unique but has nothing to do with buffs.  The comment I was responding to was about unique Buff mechanics.

I was very careful to give the design limitations so it would not be overpowered.  What specifically can you point to as a problem?

I like the idea of the AT getting Placate.  The POINT of the design is to have a Buff Primary class that plays more defensively than the Defender.  Support that is not as squishy.  To justify that it has to be fairly low damage and low range.  Placate fits with that design better than any sort of Taunt.  As an ability in the Attack set it makes sense that it has Something to do with interacting with mobs.  I'm open to another idea.  Any suggestions?

[boggo2300]

Just now, Leogunner said:

There's a difference between power proliferation and completely mucking up the ATs.

 

Why not "proliferate" support sets to Tankers?  It makes no damned sense but it's the same premise and likely would screw with balance in more ways that we know.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of ANY of it, however power proliferation is STILL a better choice than new AT's everywhere

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I'm trying to work within the system that currently exists.  Profilerating melee attacks to corruptors is not justified within the existing system.  Corruptors are a ranged dps AT, by design.  The design of the game suggests that to have buff with melee a new AT would have to be created.

I agree that adding a new AT should be rare.  There are only a couple spots left.  One is buff with melee.  Another is Pets on a DPS class with perhaps a small amount of armor, but Not buffs.  That's about it.  Everything else is already filled.

Id argue it is not given that there are a couple spots left.

 

If this was a game in beta I'd suggest we may already have too many.  

 

Besides flavor text, why are Corruptors inherently "ranged"? 

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Id argue it is not given that there are a couple spots left.

 

If this was a game in beta I'd suggest we may already have too many.  

 

Besides flavor text, why are Corruptors inherently "ranged"? 

 

They are a ranged dps/support hybrid.  That is the design.

That's like asking "besides flavor text, why are Dominators inherently "CC"?  "Why are Stalkers inherently melee?"

Because that's the game.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Id argue it is not given that there are a couple spots left.

 

If this was a game in beta I'd suggest we may already have too many.  

 

Besides flavor text, why are Corruptors inherently "ranged"? 

 

Corruptors have BAD melee damage modifiers.  If you gave them a melee set it would suck.  This is how the game works.

An AT includes more than just HP and an inherent.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

There's a difference between power proliferation and completely mucking up the ATs.

 

Why not "proliferate" support sets to Tankers?  It makes no damned sense but it's the same premise and likely would screw with balance in more ways that we know.

Id rather do neither.  But proliferation would be much more straight forward than a new AT.

 

Look at Energy Blast vs Energy Assault.  They already share multiple powers. 

 

So you are actually only juggling partial set changes. (Replacing some ranged attacks with Melee attacks)

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Id rather do neither.  But proliferation would be much more straight forward than a new AT.

 

Look at Energy Blast vs Energy Assault.  They already share multiple powers. 

 

So you are actually only juggling partial set changes. (Replacing some ranged attacks with Melee attacks)

It is in fact not that simple.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

Corruptors have BAD melee damage modifiers.  If you gave them a melee set it would suck.  This is how the game works.

An AT includes more than just HP and an inherent.

It is perhaps easier to adjust melee scale than coming up with a new AT. 

[Wavicle]

It is in fact wrong to say that power proliferation is a simpler way to do this.  It is actually a More complicated way to do it.   Making a new AT is the simple way to do it.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Haijinx said:

It is perhaps easier to adjust melee scale than coming up with a new AT. 

That changes how all the melee attacks already available to that AT work.  You would then have to individually changed all of those powers.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

It is in fact wrong to say that power proliferation is a simpler way to do this.  It is actually a More complicated way to do it.   Making a new AT is the simple way to do it.

History would suggest otherwise. 

 

Sentinels are not right yet.

 

You could argue that Kheldians are not right yet.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

History would suggest otherwise. 

 

Sentinels are not right yet.

 

You could argue that Kheldians are not right yet.

Doesn't change the fact that adding melee sets to Defenders would be a huge problem.  For one thing, they would likely duplicate abilities already in their Epic sets, so Those powers would have to be replaced within the new sets.

Edited December 15, 2019 by sacredlunatic

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

That changes how all the melee attacks already available to that AT work.  You would then have to individually changed all of those powers.

This was done recently in the proposed Tanker/Brute changes

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Scourge is unique but has nothing to do with buffs.  The comment I was responding to was about unique Buff mechanics.

And why the hell does ANOTHER AT's unique mechanics have to rely on another hypothetical AT's mechanics?  The point was making the AT unique in some way and you tried making an example of an AT that DOES have a unique mechanic.

 

5 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I was very careful to give the design limitations so it would not be overpowered.  What specifically can you point to as a problem?

I was alluding to the mess of "It's between this AT and that AT in this, it's between this AT and that AT in that..."  Just tell us what the AT is MEANT to do and then let the players fondle it to do what they want with it, even if it's at non-optimal capacities than a more specialized AT.

 

7 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I like the idea of the AT getting Placate.  The POINT of the design is to have a Buff Primary class that plays more defensively than the Defender.  Support that is not as squishy.  To justify that it has to be fairly low damage and low range.  Placate fits with that design better than any sort of Taunt.  As an ability in the Attack set it makes sense that it has Something to do with interacting with mobs.  I'm open to another idea.  Any suggestions?

Then I'd ask what the absolute frikk a GUARDIAN has to do with trickery and sneaking about?  Maybe you didn't have a clear concept or you changed the concept halfway through?

 

That's fine.  I'm just saying don't tie your concept to an extremely situational power like Placate.  There's not that many people who clamour for it and its effects immediately disappear the moment your own effects start to touch the target which would be VERY likely if you have any kind of persistent debuffs on the field.

 

Also, I don't know how you can play anymore defensively than a Defender without completely cutting your offense at the ankles.  If that's the case, why not keep Placate as an offensive tool that's limited so you can actually do something effectively offensively but on a limited scale dubbed by Placate and its recharge?