New Archetype: Protector (support/melee)

[Haijinx]

41 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

I just wanna point out that some Dominators have to fight in melee, without mez protection. 

 

EDIT:  Unless you mean Domination itself, which isn't reliable until you have permadom.

Blasters often do

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Menelruin said:

I just wanna point out that some Dominators have to fight in melee, without mez protection. 

 

EDIT:  Unless you mean Domination itself, which isn't reliable until you have permadom.

Fighting mezzed mobs without mez protection is not a big risk.

Pbuckley818: if you give them buff and Armor they will have Way too low damage to be fun.  That's why I've kept the protection in the inherent pretty minimal.  It could be tuned up if it turned out to be not enough.

[Pbuckley818]

4 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Fighting mezzed mobs without mez protection is not a big risk.

Pbuckley818: if you give them buff and Armor they will have Way too low damage to be fun.  That's why I've kept the protection in the inherent pretty minimal.  It could be tuned up if it turned out to be not enough.

Curious to why you believe that would be necessary. While we do need to be wary of power bloat. I fail to see how giving them a bit of armor makes them so much more powerfull that their damage needs to be dropped so low as to be uselss. They are already a melee AT and they would be loosing support in return for the defenses they get. Veats seem to work fine, and they have access to ranged attacks while your talking about dropping the damage to around the same as a Corrupter or a Defender anyways. Yet you believe granting them armor would require them to take an even bigger Damage hit? Have you tested this? Or is this pure theory? I feel like this is overthinking things a bit. I'd like to at least try getting a version of this working on the test server to look at the numbers and what values they really need to be set at before dismissing the notion out of hand. Keeping in mind that being in melee is inherently a nerf over being able to attack from a distance.

 

At the same timeI worry that in order for your innate to function properly it would possibly have to be the most powerful innate in the game, possibly more so than Brutes Rage, or Masterminds Bodyguard system. basically giving them an armor powerset albeit a weeker one that they don't need to invest anything into.

 

That being said I feel like we have two different end goals. Personally I would be fine with the AT ending up at around the same support levels of a VEAT or Mastermind, though preferably around the same level as a Controller. (I am imagining them at around a 6-7 on the games arbitrary statistics meter.) With damage around that of a Tank or Corruptor, and Survivability around that of a Stalker or Scrapper. But ultimately the numbers need to fall where they need to to keep the AT fun and the game balanced.

 

Like I said I feel I like need to work on my own take beceause I really think we are going to need to see both options in action before deciding which one should be used.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Wavicle]

Yea, I'm looking for something closer to a Defender in terms of buff power.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Pbuckley818 said:

I worry that in order for your innate to function properly it would possibly have to be the most powerful innate in the game, possibly more so than Brutes Rage, or Masterminds Bodyguard system.

I think in combination with their Buff set the inherent won't actually have to be that powerful.  But yes, that is a concern.  If necessary that could be addressed, for example by putting the power in an ability they are required to take like a stalker does.

[Pbuckley818]

40 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I think in combination with their Buff set the inherent won't actually have to be that powerful.  But yes, that is a concern.  If necessary that could be addressed, for example by putting the power in an ability they are required to take like a stalker does.

So getting a defensive power to replace their T1 from their secondary? Or would it be in their primary? I feel like you'd want it in the Secondary but that would mean no attacks at level 1. Thane again it could be what they get in place of Confront/Placate, or even better they could get two powers in their melee owhich help to give them some survivability, Using the Stalker as a model for deciding what powers get removed. (Anything you losse for Assassin Strike you loose). This could also mean different melee's could get slightly different powers, so you could still have a sword and board Protector. Not to say they would just get Armor Powers or even get any at all just a thought. Odds are you'd want to do something fairly universal though. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Yea, I'm looking for something closer to a Defender in terms of buff power.

Something with Defender level support but higher damage just replaces Defender. The thing they have going for them is mainly their powerful buffs/debuffs. 

[Leogunner]

7 hours ago, Pbuckley818 said:

That being said I feel like we have two different end goals. 

Like I mentioned before, there are many ways to approach a melee support AT. Yours seems to be close to mine, the Interceptor, which sacrifices some of the support for armor and mez protection. I made the suggestion before the Tanker changes started being tested but my goal was to make a melee support aimed at being a tank without too much damage. Since Tankers are having their damaged buffed eventually (both in AoE capacity and base damage) if my Interceptor were to fit with the 2 tanks (Tanker and Brute) it'd actually do the least damage while tanking but make up for it with an offensive inherent that rewards it in the off-tank role. 

 

I think the reason I like my idea is because I know people like to see Domination, Critical Hit, Scourge and the like float above their enemies showing the impact of their inherent. The interceptor's Full Force inherent would have similar impact with unique results and parameters to activate, adding fun interaction rather than filling a hole left by a specific power combination. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Leogunner

[Wavicle]

18 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Something with Defender level support but higher damage just replaces Defender. The thing they have going for them is mainly their powerful buffs/debuffs. 

The way my design is set up now is with buffs slightly better than corruptor, but not as good as defender, but they all are getting Power Placate (haven't discussed what kind of timer this would be on).

Their damage should NOT be better than a defender, but around the same.  Only their self defense would be better.

Edited December 19, 2019 by sacredlunatic

[Pbuckley818]

10 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

The way my design is set up now is with buffs slightly better than corruptor, but not as good as defender, but they all are getting Power Placate (haven't discussed what kind of timer this would be on).

Their damage should NOT be better than a defender, but around the same.  Only their self defense would be better.

Ok so we are looking at Defender numbers for damage, that relies on placate... Now I really need to see this in action, because that does not sound fun at all. Defender is hard enough to play as a ranged character. Yet Protector still has take a hit to support, just due to Mez protection and an absorb shield? Are you at least making sure all their support powers can help...

 

Tell me how they generate that Absorb Shield again? Was it just on a timer, beceause I think I have an idea to make this work. But it would be kind of powerful, just worth thinking about. What if the absorb shield reginerates a little bit every time you use a Primary Power? No that might be overkill... Just a thought for something to try.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Leogunner]

56 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

The way my design is set up now is with buffs slightly better than corruptor, but not as good as defender, but they all are getting Power Placate (haven't discussed what kind of timer this would be on).

Their damage should NOT be better than a defender, but around the same.  Only their self defense would be better.

And this is why I am weary explaining the capabilities of a new AT with a bunch of "it's between this AT and that AT" without describing what the AT can do and can't do. It's it a DPS with some support? A useless support with weak useless offense, oh but it has mez protection? Why would someone be drawn to play it? 

[BrandX]

18 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

That would absolutely be overpowered. 

So you want melee/support that hits like a wet noodle, and has to be in melee range, without mez protection?

[Replacement]

Random Contrary Hour

17 hours ago, Menelruin said:

I just wanna point out that some Dominators have to fight in melee, without mez protection. 

 

EDIT:  Unless you mean Domination itself, which isn't reliable until you have permadom.

Are some Dominator builds even capable of surviving in the melee until Permadom?  My experience has been no, but Dominator is my favorite AT to be frustrated about.

16 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Blasters often do

Defiance does help some, but I think "often" is pretty key there.  Blasters survive by not living in the melee.

 

/End Contrary Hour

 

This thread is really not "my" AT (because we all secretly have our own take on a melee/support, right?), but I would prefer to see such a class have low buff numbers (probably close to MM level) and have power-boosting effects inherent to their... inherent.  It has a nice side benefit of giving them something that sticks out and is unique, but the true purpose is to have it not apply to self-buffs, to mix with changing out the "target all allies" powers for pbaoe versions.

 

Result: gives party decent (probably Corruptor-level) buffs while giving self crappy buffs.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Replacement

[DrRocket]

I would say it is somewhat of an interesting proposal, when you look at the Sentinel, it is in fact a Blaster that gave up range but gained status protections and survivability powers.

 

Your Guardian is similar in concept to the sentinel with regards to the Defender, thus you have a defender with no ranged secondary, but has gained status effect protections and survivability powers. I am not sure, I would wish on any Archtype the damage nurf Defenders have to endure.

 

Despite the other posts, I believe your suggestion does have merit for consideration.

 

For wehat it is worth...

[Menelruin]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Random Contrary Hour

Are some Dominator builds even capable of surviving in the melee until Permadom?  My experience has been no, but Dominator is my favorite AT to be frustrated about.

Defiance does help some, but I think "often" is pretty key there.  Blasters survive but not living in the melee.

 

/End Contrary Hour

My Earth/Earth dom does, though slotting EQ to be up as much as possible helps.  /Earth is pretty heavily melee.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

So you want melee/support that hits like a wet noodle, and has to be in melee range, without mez protection?

No it gets mez protection.

[Wavicle]

It’s possible that hit points would need to be slightly higher, but I would rather keep hit points low and be able to tune damage up.

 

Why I suggested keeping their defenses fairly light, so that damage wouldn’t have to be too low.

Edited December 19, 2019 by sacredlunatic

[Pbuckley818]

 

12 hours ago, Replacement said:

Random Contrary Hour

Are some Dominator builds even capable of surviving in the melee until Permadom?  My experience has been no, but Dominator is my favorite AT to be frustrated about.

Defiance does help some, but I think "often" is pretty key there.  Blasters survive by not living in the melee.

 

/End Contrary Hour

 

This thread is really not "my" AT (because we all secretly have our own take on a melee/support, right?), but I would prefer to see such a class have low buff numbers (probably close to MM level) and have power-boosting effects inherent to their... inherent.  It has a nice side benefit of giving them something that sticks out and is unique, but the true purpose is to have it not apply to self-buffs, to mix with changing out the "target all allies" powers for pbaoe versions.

 

Result: gives party decent (probably Corruptor-level) buffs while giving self crappy buffs.

Ooh I like that, they can buff themselves unlike lot of other Supports, but their own self buffs are weaker. While their group buffs are better. That's a nice tool.

11 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I would say it is somewhat of an interesting proposal, when you look at the Sentinel, it is in fact a Blaster that gave up range but gained status protections and survivability powers.

 

Your Guardian is similar in concept to the sentinel with regards to the Defender, thus you have a defender with no ranged secondary, but has gained status effect protections and survivability powers. I am not sure, I would wish on any Archtype the damage nurf Defenders have to endure.

 

Despite the other posts, I believe your suggestion does have merit for consideration.

 

For wehat it is worth...

The point I am trying to get at is that we won't know exactly what the best way to implement the AT is until we start testing different idea's and numbers. We all need to be ready to kill our darlings. As an artist I am acutely aware of this. Sometimes the thing you have in your head is beyond the scope of reality, maybe it will be your lack of aability, maybe the tools, or other parameters you must work with just won't allow it. This is why we all need to be skeptical of other peoples desighns but also to look for solutions, if you have noticed I have tried suggesting things to improve the design.

 

Hmmm... Maybe someone needs to make a thread, containing a check list for the different possible idea's that should be tested when trying to implement this AT. I feel like that could be very useful especially when It get's down to the grindstone. 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Wavicle]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:25 AM, Leogunner said:

And this is why I am weary explaining the capabilities of a new AT with a bunch of "it's between this AT and that AT" without describing what the AT can do and can't do. It's it a DPS with some support? A useless support with weak useless offense, oh but it has mez protection? Why would someone be drawn to play it? 

People enjoy Defenders, in fact they are more popular than Corruptors.

So if this AT had buffs almost as good as a Defender and damage almost as good as a Corruptor, but with a little mez protection and better hit points than either, would that not be fun?

[boggo2300]

13 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

People enjoy Defenders, in fact they are more popular than Corruptors.

So if this AT had buffs almost as good as a Defender and damage almost as good as a Corruptor, but with a little mez protection and better hit points than either, would that not be fun?

it's damage should be nowhere near as good as a Corruptor, if it's buffs are almost as good as a Defender, it's damage should be about the same as a defender if you are giving it more mez and hp

[Replacement]

6 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

it's damage should be nowhere near as good as a Corruptor, if it's buffs are almost as good as a Defender, it's damage should be about the same as a defender if you are giving it more mez and hp

That would leave it pointless, though...

Corruptor damage, sans Scourge, seems quite acceptable.

 

Giving up damage for survival, when most of your powers require you to be in melee, is the design flaw game designers have been screwing up for decades.

 

At least some amount of survival is already paid for just by giving up an entire ranged attack set.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Replacement

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

People enjoy Defenders, in fact they are more popular than Corruptors.

So if this AT had buffs almost as good as a Defender and damage almost as good as a Corruptor, but with a little mez protection and better hit points than either, would that not be fun?

Have you looked into why Defenders are as popular as they are?

 

Not that a Defender player wouldn't try a melee version (but if you ask me, most that like support tend to not like melee...it's why you have many asking to give support ATs Assault sets...because they don't want to be stuck in melee), but I feel the target audience for a melee/support are players that like melee but want to also help their teammates.  So having a melee AT that has the lowest offense (you said it'd have the same offense as a Defender, not "almost as good as a Corruptor")...at least I believe Defender is considered the lowest along with non-optimized Controller and petless MM....wouldn't grasp those melee players either.

 

Would it be fun?  I have no idea.  You seem enthusiastic about it so it's possible.  But question in the same vein: could it be boring or redundant?

 

What does this AT have that would be fun?  Just having a unique powers combination isn't enough, IMO.  You've mentioned placate and juggled around various incarnations but they range from "....eh" to "wow that's bad" (actually, I think there was one that kinda seemed interesting but I don't frankly see how any of it meshes with the concept or direction of the AT as presented).  Then your idea's trajectory has been shifted around after various posts so I don't really know where it stands atm.

 

That all being said, I've never been a fan of passive inherents with no dynamic gameplay as suggested with new ATs.  Things that passively give you armor is boring to me and reeks of covering up holes in your design.  

[Haijinx]

16 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

it's damage should be nowhere near as good as a Corruptor, if it's buffs are almost as good as a Defender, it's damage should be about the same as a defender if you are giving it more mez and hp

Or less .. 

[boggo2300]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Or less .. 

I was trying diplomacy, I'm new to it, so thought I'd go the extra step 😄

[Haijinx]

Seems like there are three general "wants" when it comes to melee support. 

 

A melee defender with a better inherent.  (Low damage, high suporr)

 

A melee variant of a corruptor with a better inherent (high damage, some support)

 

A heavy support variant of a tanker (high survival, some support) presumably this one overlaps with one of the others. 

 

So it sounds like people who advocate the melee support idea really want at least 2 ATs not 1.

 

 

=======

I agree trying to make the inherent do everything will not work.  No other AT does this.  

 

Seems more reasonable that whatever melee support character comes out of these ideas should instead follow the Stalker's lead. 

 

In that it should give up some support powers and some melee powers to balance the fact it will be a support character with mez protect and armor.   Or a melee character with a lot of support.