New Archetype: Protector (support/melee)

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

They exist for players to customize their character beyond the scope afforded to them by the AT system. Filling in the gaps left by the strengencies of the system by affording players the ability to access powers that the Dev's felt should not be too AT dependent, while making sure not to allow anyone to step on anyone else's toes, or make a super AT, by limiting the potency of powers that allow the player to access the abilties of another role. I.E. Gap fillers.

Most characters powers only get employed when convenient to the plot though. The Super Strength characters are often infamous for this. It's really silly to act like because someone's powers are plot dependent they are not a core part of the character. Imagine if I made the claim that beceause supermans super strength is very plot dependent he should actually be a Energy blast/Invulnerability Sentinel.

I mention the Plot specific stuff when it is Plot morso than most characters. 

 

So that its really obvious something is happening as a plot device. 

 

Canary's voice power when she is doing anything street level is like that. Its spelled right out that she can only use it rarely.  No matter what you saw on JLA, lol.  Her ability not to get killed by bullets and blasts etc is like that.  Her Martial Arts is not.  She is clearly stated to be one of the best Martial Artists around.  And its her main go to.

 

Nightcrawler's Teleporting Others just in time is like that.  His swashbuckling is not 

 

Spiderman"s danger sense is not.  It is a core concept.  He more has a plot weakness in that his life always goes wrong at the wrong time.  

[Wavicle]

I’d say you’re taking this way too far towards the damage dealer side. It’s supposed to be a pure support archetype alongside defender and controller.  Too complicated also, and no to confront. Confront is literally the least popular power in the entire game. And anyway they get build up they don’t need another damage buff.

[Pbuckley818]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

I mention the Plot specific stuff when it is Plot morso than most characters. 

 

So that its really obvious something is happening as a plot device. 

 

Canary's voice power when she is doing anything street level is like that. Its spelled right out that she can only use it rarely.  No matter what you saw on JLA, lol.  Her ability not to get killed by bullets and blasts etc is like that.  Her Martial Arts is not.  She is clearly stated to be one of the best Martial Artists around.  And its her main go to.

 

Nightcrawler's Teleporting Others just in time is like that.  His swashbuckling is not 

 

Spiderman"s danger sense is not.  It is a core concept.  He more has a plot weakness in that his life always goes wrong at the wrong time.  

 

I understand now. Sense Ravens healing ability can only come up when someone is injured she is a dark/dark Dominator. Sense Sue Storms ability to stop bullets with her shild can only come up whene someone needs to be protected, she is an Energy/Energy Blaster. Ect., Ect.

 

Why do we even have supports in this game?

 

 

[Haijinx]

I was less interested in specifics and more in concepts.  So what comic book characters that are Support characters that fight in melee.

 

That's why I mentioned Diviner.  She is blind but has super tech senses so she seems basically psychic.  Her main job is keeping the team apprised of threats.   She is a support character.

 

When she fights, she uses martial arts but her incredible sense ability lets her attack and defend at a better level. 

 

Destiny is similar but an actual psychic.  But she's also geriatric and even less of a fighter.

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Pbuckley818 said:

 

I understand now. Sense Ravens healing ability can only come up when someone is injured she is a dark/dark Dominator. Sense Sue Storms ability to stop bullets with her shild can only come up whene someone needs to be protected, she is an Energy/Energy Blaster. Ect., Ect.

 

Why do we even have supports in this game?

 

 

No you don't, you basically strawmaned my post.

[Leogunner]

Some examples of melee/support:

 

Spider-man.  He's often depicted in group scenarios as the guy using webs to soften his ally's falls, stick webs to foes faces to blind them, bind things up (people and objects) for various purposes and his prominent attacks are all melee.

 

Beast.  He's predominately a support character building devices and using science to help his allies.  While he *can* be the Scrapper rushing into a fight with just his melee and his bulky muscles, that isn't even half his character or his capabilities.

 

Neji (because I'm not a filthy american comics purist).  Capable of shutting down the chakra flow of enemies by striking specific points on the skin.  No chakra, no powers.  And he's purely a close-range combatant with only his special "ranged fist" attack where he ejects chakra from a point in the palm of his hand.

 

Rouge.  Can she not drain the energy from a foe to the point she can replicate their powers?  That's a debuff but it can work to the team's advantage if the power she takes can be capitalized, such as telepathy to invade her foe's thoughts.  One might say her power draining is more like a pool power but it's actually her ONLY power!  If her only power is a debuff, what does that make her? lol

 

Mr. Negative.  Because why are we focusing on heroes.  Don't know much about him but he has a healing touch and can charge weapons with his energy along with advanced strength.

 

 

[Replacement]

I'm really not a fan of this line of reasoning where you reduce core parts of a character (cap's leadership, canary's martial arts) down to a power pool pick, and then have to run it on the ATs worst at those pool powers.  Of course, this is why I disliked the AT scales from day 1.

 

We like our concept characters; we shouldn't be scorned for wanting them to be good.

 

Can you imagine if Controller didn't exist, how you folks would be saying right now that you just need to roll a defender? 

 

Spiderman is a Dominator. 

 

EDIT: My random Spider-man comment had nothing to do with Leo's.  I just thought it was fun to take a character that just about everyone would label Scrapper and show that he really isn't that great of a fit for it.  His Super Reflexes is less iconic than his webbing.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Replacement

[Pbuckley818]

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

No you don't, you basically strawmaned my post.

At least I actually engaged with your argument. Though to be honest I cannot see any other interpretation. Your use of the concept of plot contrivance feels like nothing more than an attempt to avoid engaging with an alternative viewpoint.

 

For instance Nightcrawler can only save someone at the nick of time if such a thing is necessary, however it is established that he has trained to do so repeatedly in the danger room,  he is constantly looking out for his allies, has the ability to teleport, and amazing reflexes, that is not a contrivance, it is as natural as naked. Just beceause soemthing is fantastic does not mean it is inherently a plot contrivance, Furthermore he constantly uses his ability to get people into a better position to attack, or to direct enemy fire to another part of the battlefield by goading an enemy to attack him before Bamfing away, simultaneously protecting his allies, and opening his foe up for an attack. Heck he is often a means of transport for his allies, which the Kinetic is famous for being able to do. This si the vast majority of what Nightcrawler does otside of sneak attacks which he uses quite often as well as being a martial artist, and a swordsmen. But beceause some of what he does is plot dependent that doesn't matter?

 

Speaking fo Goading I have an idea of giving the class a Confront like taunt called Goad that grants a -def, -res debuff to the target. The taunt aspect could be removed, though I would miss it. Essentially it would act similar to how tanks get bruising, without giving the same mechanic to another class. I also like the idea of them getting a Taunt and a Placate, that sounds like fun!

Edited December 18, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Some examples of melee/support:

 

Spider-man.  He's often depicted in group scenarios as the guy using webs to soften his ally's falls, stick webs to foes faces to blind them, bind things up (people and objects) for various purposes and his prominent attacks are all melee.

 

Beast.  He's predominately a support character building devices and using science to help his allies.  While he *can* be the Scrapper rushing into a fight with just his melee and his bulky muscles, that isn't even half his character or his capabilities.

 

Neji (because I'm not a filthy american comics purist).  Capable of shutting down the chakra flow of enemies by striking specific points on the skin.  No chakra, no powers.  And he's purely a close-range combatant with only his special "ranged fist" attack where he ejects chakra from a point in the palm of his hand.

 

Rouge.  Can she not drain the energy from a foe to the point she can replicate their powers?  That's a debuff but it can work to the team's advantage if the power she takes can be capitalized, such as telepathy to invade her foe's thoughts.  One might say her power draining is more like a pool power but it's actually her ONLY power!  If her only power is a debuff, what does that make her? lol

 

Mr. Negative.  Because why are we focusing on heroes.  Don't know much about him but he has a healing touch and can charge weapons with his energy along with advanced strength.

 

 

Id make a distinction between characters that that help out their team mates and characters who's main function is support.

 

Spider Man is not really a support character.  Its not really his gig.

 

=====

It took a while to find the name .. but ..

 

Xmen Elixir would be a good example.  He is basically a healer, heals by touch.  That's all he could do at first.  Turns out he can also harm by touch, and he augmented his body some using that process.  

 

So he is support, fights in melee only, has some limited durability, and tries to keep a low profile.

 

Very similar to this Guardian idea.

 

 

[Replacement]

If anyone has read Worm (warning: TRAUMA), a lot of capes in that setting fit the bill of either melee/support or melee/control.

[Haijinx]

28 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

At least I actually engaged with your argument. Though to be honest I cannot see any other interpretation. Your use of the concept of plot contrivance feels like nothing more than an attempt to avoid engaging with an alternative viewpoint.

 

You do get that its okay that I not only disagree with you, but that I am also not required to engage your arguments.

 

You don't have to agree with me that Nightcrawler's main "support" role is to share around plot armor and provide plot handy transportation, and thus is not really a support character.

 

That's just how I see it.  And to me it explains his decline as a character in use in Xmen stories.  As they started having more sweeping events, Nightcrawlers limited range and "payload" led to new teleporters that could move large groups much further.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Haijinx

[Pbuckley818]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

You do get that its okay that I not only disagree with you, but that I am also not required to engage your arguments.

 

You don't have to agree with me that Nightcrawler's main "support" role is to share around plot armor and provide plot handy transportation, and thus is not really a support character.

 

That's just how I see it.  And to me it explains his decline as a character in use in Xmen stories.  As they started having more sweeping events, Nightcrawlers limited range and "payload" led to new teleporters that could move large groups much further.

 

 

Oh, sorry to waste both of our time then.

[Menelruin]

IMO Spidey is actually a good example of someone with Assault as a primary:  He tends to mix it up a lot between ranged and melee attacks.

 

There's a long thread about how to "fix" Sentinel's inherent, and there's a couple things I suggested that could also work here instead. 

 

The first is very simple and basic.  There are damage types to debuff enemy accuracy, defense, damage resist, speed....but nothing to debuff their damage for the most part.  So why not just invert "bruising" and make it so that every time you hit with a melee attack, you debuff the enemy's damage a little?  That way you're being support AND encouraged to keep attacking in melee!  Plus, it'll help you SURVIVE melee by lowering mob damage!

 

The second idea was more of an offensive bent.  What if your melee attacks applied a debuff to an enemy, that allowed OTHER players a chance to crit on them?  Technically it would be useless in solo, but then, so is Gauntlet, isn't it?

[Pbuckley818]

4 hours ago, Menelruin said:

IMO Spidey is actually a good example of someone with Assault as a primary:  He tends to mix it up a lot between ranged and melee attacks.

 

There's a long thread about how to "fix" Sentinel's inherent, and there's a couple things I suggested that could also work here instead. 

 

The first is very simple and basic.  There are damage types to debuff enemy accuracy, defense, damage resist, speed....but nothing to debuff their damage for the most part.  So why not just invert "bruising" and make it so that every time you hit with a melee attack, you debuff the enemy's damage a little?  That way you're being support AND encouraged to keep attacking in melee!  Plus, it'll help you SURVIVE melee by lowering mob damage!

 

The second idea was more of an offensive bent.  What if your melee attacks applied a debuff to an enemy, that allowed OTHER players a chance to crit on them?  Technically it would be useless in solo, but then, so is Gauntlet, isn't it?

If they get both they would be similar to tanks. Getting a powerful inherent that only really works in group content, and a minor, but useful inherent to make up for their real inherent being kind of selfless. Could be something like this.

 

Disruption- The Protector (I wont give up on the name until the fat lady sings) uses their tactical prowess to disrupt enemies with whom they are actively engaged, whenever a Protector performs a successful melee attack with a melee power (Alternatively it could just be their Tier 1 Melee Power, just like the tanks.) they disrupt their opponent, reducing their damage output (or accuracy), and rendering them vulnerable to Opportunity Attacks from the Protectors Allies.

 

Then again enabling Critical Hits for the entire party could be a bit potent, so they would either have to be like a lesser kind of critical hit, or a VERY unlikely. I do like the idea but it would definitely ave to be heavily play tested.

 

My Idea was something like a Rage bar that filled whenever you used support abilities, and reduced whene you used Melee Attacks. So as to keep the Melee/Support focused on group support while they melee'd as I know the melee playstyle has a tendancy to encourage tunnel vision.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Wavicle]

I like "Protector".

EDIT: Changed name in the OP and added a note about the edit. Clarified language regarding inherent absorption effect, it gradually refills when depleted. Added language specifying a pure support role.

Edited December 18, 2019 by sacredlunatic

[Menelruin]

Hmm, I only dislike Protector because it's so similar to Defender.  Maybe Armiger?  And yes, I know the same could be said about Sentinel....

Edited December 18, 2019 by Menelruin

[BrandX]

I feel a Melee/Support that does Scrapper level damage would be fun, with some sets.  I'd love it with Energy Melee or Street Justice/Time Manipulation.

 

Though, all they really need to do is make a Time Armor set.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, BrandX said:

I feel a Melee/Support that does Scrapper level damage would be fun

That would absolutely be overpowered. 

[Pbuckley818]

39 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

That would absolutely be overpowered. 

Glad someone else said it before me.

 

Frankly I think we need to start with VEAT stats and go from there, reduce the range in exchange for more support maybe. But we need to be very carefull, even if the class is a dedicated support it's support potency might have to be lower than a corrupters due to it probably getting Mez protection. Yet maybe not. As the fact that the class is fighting in melee is in and of itself enough of an excuse for mez protection. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Wavicle]

20 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

Glad someone else said it before me.

 

Frankly I think we need to start with VEAT stats and go from there, reduce the range in exchange for more support maybe. But we need to be very varefull, even if the class is a dedicated support it's support potency might have to be lower than a corrupters due to it probably getting Mez protection. Yet maybe not. As the fact that the class is fighting in melee is in and of itself enough of an excuse for mez protection. 

The current balance I have is buffs in between those of a defender and a corruptor, base damage lower than that of a tanker but higher than a brute.  Hit points and self defense caps near that of a stalker.  I was, as you correctly say, trying to be very careful.

[Pbuckley818]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

The current balance I have is buffs in between those of a defender and a corruptor, base damage lower than that of a tanker but higher than a brute.  Hit points and self defense caps near that of a stalker.  I was, as you correctly say, trying to be very careful.

Is your current idea to simply use the support Powersets, or to mix them with defensive sets?

[Wavicle]

20 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

Is your current idea to simply use the support Powersets, or to mix them with defensive sets?

 I want to use the existing buff sets, with minor modifications. The armor is the inherent.

[Pbuckley818]

1 hour ago, sacredlunatic said:

 I want to use the existing buff sets, with minor modifications. The armor is the inherent.

If your not going to give it defense powers you might be better off giving it tank level Hit Points. This might mitigate a little bit of the squishiness.

 

Not sure about the innate at all. Maybe it could work a bit more like a rage that grants Def and/or Res buff, it dissipates as you take damage and increases as you use Primary Powers.

 

From the sounds of it thouh I probably need ot keep working on my own version of the Protector. I don't like the idea of being forced to rely on placate.

 

Figure I'll go ahead and try to get your feedback on what I am planning to do.

 

The Following is from my Project Protector word doc.

 

 

Primary: Protection (Defense/Support)

                The General idea here is to give a relatively even spread of Defense and Support Powers, preferably with as much overlap between the two as is possible (without making the Set inherently broken). As this is a Primary values will be a bit higher, but sense the abilities are split between defense and support this will inherently restrict the final values involved. That doesn’t just mean your going to get Tanker/Defender values with less utility/variety. The final Intent is an AT with Scrapper level Survival Values and Support Potential more comparable to Mastermind, or a VEAT, however, this is not set in stone. Of course, this is also the Primary for another reason, people seemed to get confused when it came to the original Protector, with many believing it to be a DPS AT, when in fact it is meant to be a Support/Off-Tank.

 

Primary (Defense/Support)

                (This is a general layout of my methodology, of course it is only a loose outline, subject to shift and change on a case by case basis but it’s a solid starting place. See the following for examples below.)

T1: Armor Power

T2: Support Power

T3: Hybrid Power

T4: Support OR Armor Power

T5: Support OR Armor Power

T6: Hybrid Power

T7: Support OR Armor Power

T8: Support OR Armor Power

T9: Hybrid Power

 

Primary (Defense/Support)

T1: Deflection- Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res (Smash, Lethal)

T2: Battle Agility- Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)

T3: Battle Tactics: Maneuvers- Toggle: PBAoE Team +DEF(All)

T4: True Grit- Auto: Self +Res (Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative, Toxic), +Max Health

T5: Battle Tactics: Assault- Toggle: PBAoE, Team +DMG Res(Taunt, Placate)

T6: Rally- PBAoE, Team +Res (Disorient, Hold, Immobilize, Sleep, Fear, Confuse, Repel, Knockback, Def Debuff)

T7: Battle Tactics: Leadership- Toggle PBAoE Team +ACC Res(Confuse, Fear) +Perception

T8: Shield Charge- PBAoE, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown, Self Teleport.

T9: Battle Tactics: Interference- PBAoE, Foes -To Hit, -DMG, -Def.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Menelruin]

I just wanna point out that some Dominators have to fight in melee, without mez protection. 

 

EDIT:  Unless you mean Domination itself, which isn't reliable until you have permadom.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Menelruin

[Pbuckley818]

7 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

I just wanna point out that some Dominators have to fight in melee, without mez protection. 

 

EDIT:  Unless you mean Domination itself, which isn't reliable until you have permadom.

It's true that many classes fight in melee often enough without Mez protection, but I think you are undervaluing how valuably being able to mez enemies before thye mez you can really be. As we are not building a control class this is not a counter in their tool belt. Furthermore many such classes do a bit more damage than this AT will be doing, meaning thjey can kill enemies much faster, another counter to Mez not in this AT's toolbelt.

 

In short they need Mez protection because it is the only counter available to them without expanding the preview of the AT.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Pbuckley818