New Archetype: Protector (support/melee)

[FDR's Think Tank]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 8:40 PM, sacredlunatic said:

I’d say you’re taking this way too far towards the damage dealer side. It’s supposed to be a pure support archetype alongside defender and controller.  Too complicated also, and no to confront. Confront is literally the least popular power in the entire game. And anyway they get build up they don’t need another damage buff.

 

The Scrapper Confront obviously needs to be tuned up anyway for scrappers. It's pretty simple, I think: Make it so it's a targeted taunt power that also placates everyone else targeting the scrapper. It's obvious the Confront is supposed to be a "call-out" one on one challenge power anyway. In solo, it would only temporarily placate, since mobs would naturally retarget the only player character in range. However, in group battles, it would bale the scrapper out when he bit off more than he can chew, giving him the ability to increase his survivability by shrugging off responsibility... a very Scrapper thing to do. Of course, this alteration doesn't have to be made to all confronts. Depending on the element, their could be other benefits/alterations snuck in. Like a Confront that also has a chance for fear proc naturally might work for cold or dark. Some confronts could even do small AoE DoT in the more fire/toxic based sets.

[Pbuckley818]

On 12/27/2019 at 11:09 AM, FDR's Think Tank said:

 

The Scrapper Confront obviously needs to be tuned up anyway for scrappers. It's pretty simple, I think: Make it so it's a targeted taunt power that also placates everyone else targeting the scrapper. It's obvious the Confront is supposed to be a "call-out" one on one challenge power anyway. In solo, it would only temporarily placate, since mobs would naturally retarget the only player character in range. However, in group battles, it would bale the scrapper out when he bit off more than he can chew, giving him the ability to increase his survivability by shrugging off responsibility... a very Scrapper thing to do. Of course, this alteration doesn't have to be made to all confronts. Depending on the element, their could be other benefits/alterations snuck in. Like a Confront that also has a chance for fear proc naturally might work for cold or dark. Some confronts could even do small AoE DoT in the more fire/toxic based sets.

This I like, it's a lot like the stuff I was doing with Confront with it debuffing the target. 

[Leogunner]

On 12/27/2019 at 12:09 PM, FDR's Think Tank said:

 

The Scrapper Confront obviously needs to be tuned up anyway for scrappers. It's pretty simple, I think: Make it so it's a targeted taunt power that also placates everyone else targeting the scrapper. It's obvious the Confront is supposed to be a "call-out" one on one challenge power anyway. In solo, it would only temporarily placate, since mobs would naturally retarget the only player character in range. However, in group battles, it would bale the scrapper out when he bit off more than he can chew, giving him the ability to increase his survivability by shrugging off responsibility... a very Scrapper thing to do. Of course, this alteration doesn't have to be made to all confronts. Depending on the element, their could be other benefits/alterations snuck in. Like a Confront that also has a chance for fear proc naturally might work for cold or dark. Some confronts could even do small AoE DoT in the more fire/toxic based sets.

Don't think that's even possible to cast an effect without a specific range and radius.  Even still, that kind of makes Confront a better Placate since Placate is just single target and this Confront is AoE except the target.  Also kind of doesn't make sense that a Scrapper wants to lose aggro instead of hold it but mostly that foes would just forget about you just because you decided to challenge a single foe.  I guess if this were an old kung-fu movie where foes would come in 1 at a time?

 

If anything, I'd want to give my target a short term +movement buff so when I confront them, they rush at me quickly and I don't have to wait for them to saunter over to me after thinking about the insult I just threw at them and then running over.

[Leogunner]

Also, what happened to the OP? @sacredlunatic

 

I have my own ideas to modify the suggestion but if he's not interested in discussing it anymore, I could save it for another thread.

[boggo2300]

29 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Also, what happened to the OP? @sacredlunatic

 

I have my own ideas to modify the suggestion but if he's not interested in discussing it anymore, I could save it for another thread.

another thread will be along shortly, they are like busses

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Also, what happened to the OP? @sacredlunatic

 

I have my own ideas to modify the suggestion but if he's not interested in discussing it anymore, I could save it for another thread.

I'm here, I've just been busy.

I'm happy to hear any suggestions, I'll look back and see what I've missed.

[Leogunner]

So my spin on your Protector:

 

And this is taking into account hitting the various "points" mentioned in the OP (such as the primary/secondary combo being an AT with similar ported over support sets and melee sets, utilizing the Placate effect, having an inherent that gives mez protection and absorb, etc) but modified.

 

The Name

Change it.  Protector is nondescript since very little of the suggestion actually falls in line with it and it's just a synonym of Defender and thus boring.  The new name is Vindicator and you will see why later.  The Vindicator is a person of rules and procedures.  Their judgement is swift and absolute and when their verdict is reached, they imbue one of their primary attacks with their power to put to rest their inquest.

 

What does it do/not do?

The Vindicator is a mid tier support (not main high tier) that carefully skims the outskirts of a battle, careful not to rush too deep in the fray as they rely on close-ranged melee attacks not only to dispatch foes but also to dish out support for the team.  They rely on their team to engage and follow behind to support/attack.  Solo, they rely on their inherent more for self-sustain.  It's attack power isn't very high but it's still decent, beating out its peers in scale.

 

This is not your stand-in main-line support.  This AT, if played actively, must remain self aware of their inherent, their aggro and their support all at once.  If enough support is available from the team, the Vindicator can keep up with the best of the other melees if needed.

 

The inherent: Stalwart

Boring.  Change the name to Inquest.

 

Inquest is a refashioned version of Domination.  It is both a resource bar and a click button.  The Inquest bar fills when your team or yourself are attacked.  The bigger your team, the slower it fills form teammates being attacked but speeds up when you are attacked.  Unlike the Domination bar, the Inquest bar is broken up into 2 levels (for UI, it could be 2 overlaying different colored bars or 1 bar with 2 segmented parts or 2 separate bars...I dunno).

 

When the Inquest bar is at stage 1 or above, you can use the Inquest click.  At any stage, you will break free of any mez you're afflicted with and gain mez protection and an absorb shield that refreshes slowly for the duration of the effect (lasts 20sec) and for that duration + 40sec, you get a moderate amount of resistance to all mez which stacks with other applications of Inquests up to 3 times.

 

At stage 2, when you click Inquest, you get the same effects as stage 1 but your next attack from your primary will apply an OBJECTION! which is a moderate resistance buff to various types of debuffs for the next 30 seconds to all allies within 20ft.  Objections can be stacked.

 

Inquest can be clicked preemptively to gain mez protection so you're not mezzed but when used as a break free, it will apply a stronger +absorb effect.  Inquest is a short duration, moderate recharge click.  Because of its shorter duration and recharge, it's not wise to put it on auto-cast (but I know people will).

 

Primary: Melee

Having melee as a primary means your offense will mature more quickly than your support.  This keeps you in-line with the other mid tier supports while also allowing you to keep up with the other melee ATs as well.

 

As mentioned before, when you click Inquest at stage 2, for the next 15sec or the next tier 1-3 melee attack is executed, that attack will cast a debuff resistance effect on yourself and allies within 20ft.

 

In place of the taunt power, the Vindicator gets an upgraded version of Placate.  It is called Exonerate.  Exonerate can be cast on allies which will erase all aggro from them and placate any foe around them.  Placating at least 1 foe fills up your Inquest bar.  You cannot erase aggro from a Tanker or Brute, however.  When Exonerate is cast on a target foe, it placates the target and has a chance to apply a "placate over time" effect on the target (this doesn't fill your Inquest bar).

 

Secondary: Support

Pure and simple, you're about the same level of support as Controller, Corruptor and MM with the sophistication of offering good stackable resistance to debuffs for you and your team as well as some tactical application of aggro manipulation. To counterbalance the benefit of debuff vs buff, the area and target cap for debuffs is reduced slightly for Vindicator.  Also, some powers would have to be re-purposed or changed to mesh with the style of the AT such as Repel/Repulsion Field and Force Bubble.

[Wavicle]

 That’s very cool. I like it.

 

I was hoping for a primary support though. I like getting the buff powers earlier. Ignoring the epic archetypes, we have four pure DPS, four hybrid DPS, and three pure support or defense.  So I figured a fourth pure support or defense was fitting. Also when GM Jimmy was chatting with us on Excelsior, he said that a support primary with melee secondary was what he was thinking about. Not that that’s any sort of official word, but that’s where I got the idea.

[Pbuckley818]

On 12/30/2019 at 6:40 PM, sacredlunatic said:

 That’s very cool. I like it.

 

I was hoping for a primary support though. I like getting the buff powers earlier. Ignoring the epic archetypes, we have four pure DPS, four hybrid DPS, and three pure support or defense.  So I figured a fourth pure support or defense was fitting. Also when GM Jimmy was chatting with us on Excelsior, he said that a support primary with melee secondary was what he was thinking about. Not that that’s any sort of official word, but that’s where I got the idea.

If (Buff/Debuff)/Melee can be implemented, and effective. I think most people will be happy with it. I just don't feel that pure unaltered Support powers will do, sure some might work just fine; Rad, Kin, Storm, Time, Nature, Poisons all spring to mind (I think Dark will do fine too, but I have very little knowledge on the set.). But many if not most just wont do. Not to mention that I am not entirely certain how the playstyle will line up, I really want to play something that can actually get up in enemies faces, like a scrapper, rather than something that has to beat around the bush about it like a stalker. But that's just my two cents.

 

I wounder how hard it would be to implement an innate that gives them a unique power pool, something like a slightly more potent Fighting Pool might help.

[Leogunner]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:40 PM, sacredlunatic said:

 That’s very cool. I like it.

 

I was hoping for a primary support though. I like getting the buff powers earlier. Ignoring the epic archetypes, we have four pure DPS, four hybrid DPS, and three pure support or defense.  So I figured a fourth pure support or defense was fitting. Also when GM Jimmy was chatting with us on Excelsior, he said that a support primary with melee secondary was what he was thinking about. Not that that’s any sort of official word, but that’s where I got the idea.

Like I mentioned to you before, it's not all about how the AT fits between the other ATs.  While the Vindicator isn't a pure support focused AT, it does add an aspect of support that isn't available to the other support ATs.  Think about it this way, if you gave all Corruptors a means of giving moderate stackable resistance to -ToHit, Endurance Drain, -Recover, -Recharge, -Movement, -Defense and -Regen to their party, do you think that would put them closer to their Defender counterparts in the realm of support?  The Corruptor might not be able to bubble their team for as high a value as Defender, but then you're stacking other valuable debuff resistances on top of your numbers.

 

That all being said, the idea is merely a prototype.  It's just how I envision it being its best.  If you see some of the idea that you like, you can always just refit it to your liking (swapping the primary and secondary).  It's all just brainstorming.

 

I did put a lot of thought into the inherent and I feel reactive +absorb is better than passive +absorb.  The aspect of giving you more +absorb if used to break free of mez feels like a cool interactive aspect to make the gameplay unique from other support/attack ATs like Corruptor and Defender.

 

Also, the theme was kind of hit-or-miss.  I thought about things to make the inherent reactive and relying on having attacks directed at you or your team to build isn't done by another and it'd kind of be like one of those lawyers looking to sue for whatever reason they can find.  It has both a concept for good (a defense attorney trying to protect innocent do-gooders) and bad (cherry pick evidence to put those instigators behind bars).

[Wavicle]

I like most of what you came up with.  The fiction is pretty good.  Maybe not quite as clear as the original 10 ATs, but clearer than Sentinel definitely.

I think the main reason I want primary Buff is to get the support powers at earlier levels.  I know that's a matter of some controversy.

[Alchemystic]

I think going straight Support/Melee has a number plot problems already pointed out a few times in the thread (mostly range and survivability issues), so I think instead of pure melee we make a short range support archetype that can better support melee characters, but retains enough distance to keep alive.

 

So, instead of a Support/Melee set, I propose either (or both) of these two options;

 

PROTECTOR:

Powers: Support/Manipulation

Ancillary: Armor/Ranged, some Control

Inherent: Protection; gain a percentage of all outgoing buffs and heals you apply to teammates as a bonus returned to you (single target powers only).

 

The purpose of this archetype is to provide the intended support in close range, but instead or pure melee, you have a select few control or self-buffing powers to ensure that you have a better chance of surviving the fight. The archetype rewards choosing targets carefully, and using your support powers to aid your allies in taking them out.

 

ARBITER:

Powers: Assault/Support

Ancillary: Armor/Control, some Ranged

Inherent: Strategist; gain endurance discount on melee attacks when above 50% HP, gain endurance discount on ranged attacks when below 50% HP.

 

The purpose of this archetype is to intermingle between ranged and melee, and adapting your position to better suit the situation. The archetype rewards laying down your support first, then joining in close range to sustain melee classes, and retreating back when needed.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Pbuckley818]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:03 AM, Tyrannical said:

I think going straight Support/Melee has a number plot problems already pointed out a few times in the thread (mostly range and survivability issues), so I think instead of pure melee we make a short range support archetype that can better support melee characters, but retains enough distance to keep alive.

 

So, instead of a Support/Melee set, I propose either (or both) of these two options;

 

PROTECTOR:

Powers: Support/Manipulation

Ancillary: Armor/Ranged, some Control

Inherent: Protection; gain a percentage of all outgoing buffs and heals you apply to teammates as a bonus returned to you (single target powers only).

 

The purpose of this archetype is to provide the intended support in close range, but instead or pure melee, you have a select few control or self-buffing powers to ensure that you have a better chance of surviving the fight. The archetype rewards choosing targets carefully, and using your support powers to aid your allies in taking them out.

 

ARBITER:

Powers: Assault/Support

Ancillary: Armor/Control, some Ranged

Inherent: Strategist; gain endurance discount on melee attacks when above 50% HP, gain endurance discount on ranged attacks when below 50% HP.

 

The purpose of this archetype is to intermingle between ranged and melee, and adapting your position to better suit the situation. The archetype rewards laying down your support first, then joining in close range to sustain melee classes, and retreating back when needed.

 

 

You know manipulation would be an interesting solution to the melee conundrum, many of the sets do come with built in melee attacks, and the CC could be used to mitigate a portion of damage, any powers that overlap with support sets could be traded for Defensive toggles (or just more melee as well), it's an interesting thought, but I am not sure how it would play out in game. I have been playing an Ice Melee scrapper of late and it's a TON of fun. And the idea of increased self support being a component of the AT's inherent isn't a shabby one either.

 

Another Idea I have considered is instead of gutting the Support sets to add protections, we could actually make a new power category which mixes melee sets with defensive sets.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pbuckley818

[Alchemystic]

13 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

You know manipulation would be an interesting solution to the melee conundrum, many of the sets do come with built in melee attacks, and the CC could be used to mitigate a portion of damage, any powers that overlap with support sets could be traded for Defensive toggles (or just more melee as well) as well, it's an interesting though, but I am not sure how it would play out in game. I have been playing an Ice Melee scrapper of late and it's a TON of fun. And the idea of increased self support being a component of the AT's inherent isn't a shabby one either.

 

Another Idea I have considered is instead of gutting the Support sets to add protections, we could actually make a new power category which mixes melee sets with defensive sets.

Yeah, I think maybe swapping a few powers around would be needed, otherwise you would have duplicate powers here and there.

 

Devices/Traps would be the worst offender, but I think Trick Archery, Plant Manipulation and Temporal Manipulation may need some changes too.

 

 

[Pbuckley818]

4 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Yeah, I think maybe swapping a few powers around would be needed, otherwise you would have duplicate powers here and there.

 

Devices/Traps would be the worst offender, but I think Trick Archery, Plant Manipulation and Temporal Manipulation may need some changes too.

 

 

Probably wanna make sure you get a full melee attack chain (Around Three Melee Attacks) fairly early on too. If only to make the gameplay more engaging.

 

If people want something with a bit more flavore, I am curious what people think of Pioneer or Pathfinder? Them being an archetype that in theory goes in ahead of most other AT's in order to set up the fight to be more Amicable for others? It's a bit of stretch, I know, but it is a thought. Another would be something like Watchmen or maybe Warden.

 

I personally really like Pathfinder or Warden as it implies someone who guides and protects others. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pbuckley818