"Multi Opponent Combat" Stat, or, How to Handle Players With Runaway Survivability

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

There was a statement made earlier that a Multi Opponent stat "nerfs defense," so I'd like to explore that.

 

There is lots of existing content that "nerfs defense" if that is the terminology we want to use. I'd call it more "adjusts defense" or "modifies defense" or something similar than "nerfs" though, because nerf is a loaded term that implies the values are overtuned. 

 

Most of the enemies in the ITF, for example, have -Defense in their attacks. -Defense is also prevalent among other enemy factions, like Rularuu. Some members of Nemesis, meanwhile, have access to Vengeance and can punch above their expected values. Devouring Earth have it when they place their totems. It's in the Earth attacks that Circle of Thorns use. There are many other examples. No one seems to have any objections when a new enemy appears with -Defense or -Resist in their attacks.

 

The existing -Defense system relies on two mechanics:

• A players ability to dodge in-coming -Defense attacks
• Defense debuff resistance

Where the +ToHit system relies on:

• Player having enough Defense to still be defended when the soft cap raises

A Multi Opponent stat is not fundamentally more a "nerf" to defense than any of these existing scenarios. All it is different. And IMO fairer than some of the current content. 

It would be a nerf, plain and simple.  It would be a huge nerf to the billion inf builds out there everyone has grown accustomed to.

 

Ok answer this, are you talking about changing the whole game or adding an enemy faction that poses this threat in limited end game content?

 

There are ways a player can choose to negate some of the debuffs now though, under your method there wouldn't be any way to negate what you are suggesting.

 

Even with decent ddr a pure defense set will cascade, then you want to limit also the number of characters that same pure defense set can engage.

 

With hybrids like shield or Ninjitsu or even rad with all its mechanics it probably wouldn't even affect them.

 

Then also how would you factor in regen sets like willpower and regen?

 

I think the way it is now with the various debuffs is better than what you are suggesting because at least then there isn't an arbitrary line in the sand that instantly makes you weakened and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

 

The various debuffs and what you are suggesting accomplish the same thing, only one way allows us to attempt to game or plan around it.

 

That's why if you are looking to making new endgame content difficult I wouldn't be opposed to sour suggestion being a new enemy faction - or maybe even making end game Malta an annoying threat again. 

 

I still think there would be more fun and engaging solutions if difficulty level is what you are going for like the exotic damage route I was suggesting.

 

If applying this to the game in its entirety is your goal... Sorry but /jranger.

 

What is your objective here, whole game change or end game enemy faction?

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Ok answer this, are you talking about changing the whole game or adding an enemy faction that poses this threat in limited end game content?

 

 

This discussion has always been about a specific trial or encounter, not a change to the core game. The only way I'd consider these changes to the core game would be if were designing some kind of "hardcore" server, which is an interesting idea, but out of scope. 

 

Quote

There are ways a player can choose to negate some of the debuffs now though, under your method there wouldn't be any way to negate what you are suggesting.

You negate it by managing your aggro and/or acquiring Multi Opponent stat from archetype, powers, or buffs. 

 

Quote

If applying this to the game in its entirety is your goal... Sorry but /jranger.

But it isn't. 

 

Quote

I think the way it is now with the various debuffs is better than what you are suggesting because at least then there isn't an arbitrary line in the sand that instantly makes you weakened and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

This conversation is about what you can do to manage it. 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Noyjitat]

Widows, Spiders, forcefield, sr, ice, ninjitsu. Probably forgetting a few here... Plenty of things still kill theses at 50+4 so i dont know how you want to implement something thats only going to further punish these sets/ats. Like on a widow you either kill it, or confuse/hold it otherwise rng death. Though this can be mitigated with s/r resist from set bonuses. 

defense means shit without resistance unless all you fight is +0.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Noyjitat

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 1/6/2020 at 2:21 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Fair points. Super Reflexes is a set I assume in this imaginary system would have a high Multi Opponent modifier. That is the reason Multi Opponent is a stat. Some sets would be better at it than others and Super Reflexes, both conceptually and because it would need to do well with multiple opponents, would be one such set.

 

As one who loves SR above all other mitigation sets, I'd actually be ok with this change. Even Spider-Man can be overwhelmed by numbers.

[Hyperstrike]

27 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

As one who loves SR above all other mitigation sets, I'd actually be ok with this change. Even Spider-Man can be overwhelmed by numbers.

Spider-Man?  Sure.

The Hulk?  The Juggernaut?

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Spider-Man?  Sure.

The Hulk?  The Juggernaut?

 

Depends on the writer. Juggie just needs his helmet cut off and then just about every psi user out there can drop him.

 

Hulk? Can't build him in game. He'd be what you play in that crazy "here's your future-you, fully capped out and incarnated to everything and can defeat everything" Ouro mission. Or he's weak to fire. Again, depending on the writer.

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Noyjitat said:

defense means shit without resistance unless all you fight is +0.

lol

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Depends on the writer. Juggie just needs his helmet cut off and then just about every psi user out there can drop him.

 

Hulk? Can't build him in game. He'd be what you play in that crazy "here's your future-you, fully capped out and incarnated to everything and can defeat everything" Ouro mission. Or he's weak to fire. Again, depending on the writer.

 

Look at my Inv/SS tank again and tell me there's appreciable difference.  Outside of not being able to shatter a planet.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Hyperstrike
Constitutionally incapable of abiding typographical errors! Especially my own! HEIL WEBSTER!

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I have actually only started one topic in Suggestions on rewards merits.  Hardly filling it up, seriously can you function without being over the top in attributing things that people don't do or say to them? 

 

Think about it. You are now picking a fight over where I am posting things. Haha. Whatever.

None of that was targeting you. I merely looked at the first page of the suggestions forum. It doest cause any sort of clutter to have separate threads. 

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Widows, Spiders, forcefield, sr, ice, ninjitsu. Probably forgetting a few here... Plenty of things still kill theses at 50+4 so i dont know how you want to implement something thats only going to further punish these sets/ats. Like on a widow you either kill it, or confuse/hold it otherwise rng death. Though this can be mitigated with s/r resist from set bonuses. 

 

 

We can't judge whether these sets (or any set) would be good or bad at Multi Opponent combat without seeing what their stat is.

[Leogunner]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

There are ways a player can choose to negate some of the debuffs now though, under your method there wouldn't be any way to negate what you are suggesting.

You've forgotten what the suggestion is. 

 

To negate the effects of the MO Stat limit, you just need to engage fewer foes. 

 

Also I made a list of ways to mitigate the effects. Controls nullification or debuff partial nullification or buffs modifying the value. 

 

There are also tactical ways like having multiple off tanks sharing aggro rather than trying to focus all attention on one individual point of failure. 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

None of that was targeting you. I merely looked at the first page of the suggestions forum. It doest cause any sort of clutter to have separate threads. 

Not targeting me by replying to me got it.  Rolls eyes.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Look at my Inv/SS tank again and tell me there's appreciable difference.  Outside of not being able to shatter a planet.

I don't have to look at your Tanker to know the Hulk would flatten him, if not quickly, eventually without a chance of winning.

[Leogunner]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not targeting me by replying to me got it.  Rolls eyes.

Holy ****, you're the most vain poster on this forum.  I literally told you what I did (look at the first page of Suggestions Forum) and took notice of how many suggestions sit at a few to maybe 20 replies that don't fall into the "change the whole game" category but just something cosmetic or power/powerset buffs.

 

There is no severe need to consolidate unrelated suggestions just because someone told you to make your own thread for your unrelated suggestion and you feel salty about it.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I don't have to look at your Tanker to know the Hulk would flatten him, if not quickly, eventually without a chance of winning.

**My Point**  (That large multiples would, eventually, overwhelm even Spider-Man.  But the same really couldn't be said for the likes of The Hulk or the Juggernaut.  And presenting my Inv'SS Tank as a CoH-scale analog to either Hulk or Juggy.)

**VAST INTERSTELLAR DISTANCES**

**You**  (The Hulk would flatten your tank...)


WHOOSH!

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

**My Point**  (That large multiples would, eventually, overwhelm even Spider-Man.  But the same really couldn't be said for the likes of The Hulk or the Juggernaut.  And presenting my Inv'SS Tank as a CoH-scale analog to either Hulk or Juggy.)

**VAST INTERSTELLAR DISTANCES**

**You**  (The Hulk would flatten your tank...)


WHOOSH!

But I was replying to "Look at my Inv/SS tank again and tell me there's appreciable difference."

 

Particularly, the power level difference.  I suppose I whoosh'ed the context but I was targeting that post and statement.  It's not like I forgot the context, I just agree with @Bill Z Bubba that foes of sufficient skill and power could also overwhelm the Juggernaut and the Hulk, maybe not in outright defeating them but thwarting them all the same.

 

 

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Holy ****, you're the most vain poster on this forum.  I literally told you what I did (look at the first page of Suggestions Forum) and took notice of how many suggestions sit at a few to maybe 20 replies that don't fall into the "change the whole game" category but just something cosmetic or power/powerset buffs.

 

There is no severe need to consolidate unrelated suggestions just because someone told you to make your own thread for your unrelated suggestion and you feel salty about it.

vain?  get a life, you are like the crazy person yelling at anyone walking down the street and when someone confronts you about it you say nope was just yelling at the clouds... just the clouds  or the birds  YEAH THOSE DARN BIRDS.

 

lol  i get a laugh every time you try to deflect something derogatory, or accusatory that you actually said.  too chicken to admit you actually said it and stand behind what you say.

 

You talked about men being men again a few posts back, well be a man or woman - as i dont know what you are behind a compter screen, and stand behind what you say instead of trying to act like you arent targeting someone.  Just dont act surprised when you get called out on it.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Infinitum