AV Killer?

[WitchofDread]

@Voltak do you have a version of your build you can share?

[Cenozoic]

UPDATE:  I have completed build update to Cenozoic 1.1, and the results are interesting.  Ran AE mission for testing:

 

Level 54 AVs Tested:

• Ghost Widow
• Anti-Matter
• Tyrant
• Giovanna Scaldi

 

I am able to keep +57 hold magnitude on the AVs with consistency.  It turns out that +57 Hold is NOT enough to permahold an AV at Level 54.  That is super disappointing, as the general notes in most forums and guides are "+50" which is not accurate.  Instead, I can confirm that the AV uses the following hold protections:

• Boss Hold Protection (+6)
• Arch-Villain Resistance (Purple Triangles) (+50)

So, keeping a 54 AV steady at +57 mag hold (or confuse) does not lock the AV down.  When I cranked up the hold to +60, there was no issue and they stayed held.  So, the magic number is between 58 and 60.  For safety's sake (and that the stacking is usually mag3), I posit that Magnitude 60 Hold is required to permahold an AV, especially at 54.

 

[Cenozoic]

Another note.  I am designing a Mind/Earth that will improve the hold ability with Seismic Smash and Power Boost, the former of which is far more important.

[Voltak]

35 minutes ago, Cenozoic said:

UPDATE:  I have completed build update to Cenozoic 1.1, and the results are interesting.  Ran AE mission for testing:

 

Level 54 AVs Tested:

• Ghost Widow
• Anti-Matter
• Tyrant
• Giovanna Scaldi

 

I am able to keep +57 hold magnitude on the AVs with consistency.  It turns out that +57 Hold is NOT enough to permahold an AV at Level 54.  That is super disappointing, as the general notes in most forums and guides are "+50" which is not accurate.  Instead, I can confirm that the AV uses the following hold protections:

• Boss Hold Protection (+6)
• Arch-Villain Resistance (Purple Triangles) (+50)

So, keeping a 54 AV steady at +57 mag hold (or confuse) does not lock the AV down.  When I cranked up the hold to +60, there was no issue and they stayed held.  So, the magic number is between 58 and 60.  For safety's sake (and that the stacking is usually mag3), I posit that Magnitude 60 Hold is required to permahold an AV, especially at 54.

 

I want to see this 

Let's team again and pull the power analyzer up so I can have a record of the magnitudes dropping and raising 

It is very interesting to see how those numbers move so fast when an AV is Lvl 54 

[Cenozoic]

Yeah, I am going to tweak the build then you can take a look.  I also needed to do some math on the "54 Giovanna Problem" (long distance shoutout to Arcanaville).  If you're into numbers, please check mine and constructively critique.  Happy to answer questions or provide links if this your first dive into the basic attack mechanics.

HIT CHANCE

Dominate is based on accuracy.  It is a very accurate attack, and is NOT typed as a ranged attack, only psionic, so it ignores Ranged Defense.  In Giovanna's case, she has 20% psionic defense bonus, so I needed to make sure that wasn't an issue.  Pre-i13 PvP, one of the hilarious aspects of a Mind Dom/Controller was watching folks lose their minds when they realized Dominate ignored their stacked Ranged Defense entirely.  SR scrappers were especially salty 😛 but all in good fun.  I do miss the old PvP days.

 

HitChance=clamp[AccMods*clamp(BaseToHitChance+ToHitMods-DefMods)]

• AccMods=InherentPowerAcc*(1.00+PowerAccBonus+GlobalAccBonus)]=1.20*(1.00+0.74+0.63)=2.84
  • 1.20 is Dominate's base power accuracy.  The same is true for Seismic Smash.
  • 0.74 is the accuracy improvement from enhancements.  I run a "50+5" on a 5-slotted Unbreakable Constraint, plus a 50+5 Hold Duration IO
  • 0.63 is the global accuracy added from set bonuses.  Very important for maintaining the 95% streakbreaker system.
• BaseToHitChance
  • This scales with the Purple Patch level system.  I am -3 to Giovanna, so my base chance for each attack 48% instead of the usual 75% for an even-level enemy
• ToHitMods
  • Running Tactics and Kismet, I was able to bring 17.81% ToHit to the party
• DefMods
  • Giovanna's 20% defense also scales with the Purple Patch, so she actually has 20% * 1.33 = 26.6% Psionic Defense against me (yikes)

HitChance=clamp[2.84*clamp(48+17.81-26.6)] = 95% (clamped from 111.36%)

 

Summary - 54 Giovanna is gonna get tagged with some Dominate!

 

 

Important to note that in our first live test, I did not have Tactics or Kismet.  This meant my Hit Chance was 60.78% (explains the faceplanting).

 

Cheers!

[Voltak]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:20 AM, WitchofDread said:

@Voltak do you have a version of your build you can share?

I have 3 builds

ITF master hardcore settings for solo or duo or small teams
LGTF Master hardcore settings 

General lower level for exempt 

WHich one?

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Cenozoic said:

Yeah, I am going to tweak the build then you can take a look.  I also needed to do some math on the "54 Giovanna Problem" (long distance shoutout to Arcanaville).  If you're into numbers, please check mine and constructively critique.  Happy to answer questions or provide links if this your first dive into the basic attack mechanics.

HIT CHANCE

Dominate is based on accuracy.  It is a very accurate attack, and is NOT typed as a ranged attack, only psionic, so it ignores Ranged Defense.  In Giovanna's case, she has 20% psionic defense bonus, so I needed to make sure that wasn't an issue.  Pre-i13 PvP, one of the hilarious aspects of a Mind Dom/Controller was watching folks lose their minds when they realized Dominate ignored their stacked Ranged Defense entirely.  SR scrappers were especially salty 😛 but all in good fun.  I do miss the old PvP days.

 

HitChance=clamp[AccMods*clamp(BaseToHitChance+ToHitMods-DefMods)]

• AccMods=InherentPowerAcc*(1.00+PowerAccBonus+GlobalAccBonus)]=1.20*(1.00+0.74+0.63)=2.84
  • 1.20 is Dominate's base power accuracy.  The same is true for Seismic Smash.
  • 0.74 is the accuracy improvement from enhancements.  I run a "50+5" on a 5-slotted Unbreakable Constraint, plus a 50+5 Hold Duration IO
  • 0.63 is the global accuracy added from set bonuses.  Very important for maintaining the 95% streakbreaker system.
• BaseToHitChance
  • This scales with the Purple Patch level system.  I am -3 to Giovanna, so my base chance for each attack 48% instead of the usual 75% for an even-level enemy
• ToHitMods
  • Running Tactics and Kismet, I was able to bring 17.81% ToHit to the party
• DefMods
  • Giovanna's 20% defense also scales with the Purple Patch, so she actually has 20% * 1.33 = 26.6% Psionic Defense against me (yikes)

HitChance=clamp[2.84*clamp(48+17.81-26.6)] = 95% (clamped from 111.36%)

 

Summary - 54 Giovanna is gonna get tagged with some Dominate!

 

 

Important to note that in our first live test, I did not have Tactics or Kismet.  This meant my Hit Chance was 60.78% (explains the faceplanting).

 

Cheers!

What I am most interested in is countering the speed at which a LVL 54 AV sheds off those magnitudes. 

They drop much faster than lower level AVs. 

So I am eager to see this played out. 

I also miss the old PVP days. 

The only toons I stood a chance vs a Mind/ Dom were my Ice/Rad troller with PB or pay mastery and my Fortunata when i12 hit, the Fortunata really sooo good in i12. 

Anyway, that's another game entirely 🙂


I will be posting the video of my second attempt and a successful attempt it was to do Master ITF 54 x8 

no insps, no deaths, no temps, and so on. 
 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Voltak

[WitchofDread]

29 minutes ago, Voltak said:

ITF master hardcore settings for solo or duo or small teams

^^ this one would be great thanks!

[Voltak]

Check your private messages

[Voltak]

On 9/5/2021 at 12:52 AM, Cenozoic said:

Yeah, I am going to tweak the build then you can take a look.  I also needed to do some math on the "54 Giovanna Problem" (long distance shoutout to Arcanaville).  If you're into numbers, please check mine and constructively critique.  Happy to answer questions or provide links if this your first dive into the basic attack mechanics.

HIT CHANCE

Dominate is based on accuracy.  It is a very accurate attack, and is NOT typed as a ranged attack, only psionic, so it ignores Ranged Defense.  In Giovanna's case, she has 20% psionic defense bonus, so I needed to make sure that wasn't an issue.  Pre-i13 PvP, one of the hilarious aspects of a Mind Dom/Controller was watching folks lose their minds when they realized Dominate ignored their stacked Ranged Defense entirely.  SR scrappers were especially salty 😛 but all in good fun.  I do miss the old PvP days.

 

HitChance=clamp[AccMods*clamp(BaseToHitChance+ToHitMods-DefMods)]

• AccMods=InherentPowerAcc*(1.00+PowerAccBonus+GlobalAccBonus)]=1.20*(1.00+0.74+0.63)=2.84
  • 1.20 is Dominate's base power accuracy.  The same is true for Seismic Smash.
  • 0.74 is the accuracy improvement from enhancements.  I run a "50+5" on a 5-slotted Unbreakable Constraint, plus a 50+5 Hold Duration IO
  • 0.63 is the global accuracy added from set bonuses.  Very important for maintaining the 95% streakbreaker system.
• BaseToHitChance
  • This scales with the Purple Patch level system.  I am -3 to Giovanna, so my base chance for each attack 48% instead of the usual 75% for an even-level enemy
• ToHitMods
  • Running Tactics and Kismet, I was able to bring 17.81% ToHit to the party
• DefMods
  • Giovanna's 20% defense also scales with the Purple Patch, so she actually has 20% * 1.33 = 26.6% Psionic Defense against me (yikes)

HitChance=clamp[2.84*clamp(48+17.81-26.6)] = 95% (clamped from 111.36%)

 

Summary - 54 Giovanna is gonna get tagged with some Dominate!

 

 

Important to note that in our first live test, I did not have Tactics or Kismet.  This meant my Hit Chance was 60.78% (explains the faceplanting).

 

Cheers!

You said you did it alredy

So I am not making sense of this. 
Help me out

You said you did this already and then I invite you so we can witness this and check the numbers with analyzer

But then you say you need to tweak to do this

If you already did it, why go through the trouble of doing anything else ?

Also, I have not heard from you

I hope all is all right 

See you soon, buddy

[Cenozoic]

Hey dude,

 

All is well.  Dug up an older Mids build that had the tweaks I was looking for, like which Incarnate powers helped best and recharge-to-hold balance.  I had a bunch of old calculations when I was trying to perma-hold Avatar of Hamidon.  While it did not work, the calculations helped.  Keep in mind I have been theorycrafting this toon since shutdown, so there were years of data to review.
 

I also started on a Mind/Earth to see what an ideal hold stacker could do.  That toon is in progress, and very fun to play, similar to a Mind/Energy.

 

After that, I tangented again and made an EM/SR scrapper because that is fun, and fun is why I play!  

 

If you see me online in-game, say howdy and we’ll run that test again.  I can also post a video or something if that’s easier.  I don’t stress about timeliness in this game, that would be a job and nobody here pays ol’ Cenozoic 😛

[Cenozoic]

Follow-up for the team:

 

Accuracy was indeed the key to the equation.  I needed streakbreaker active at all times, and ONLY using powers with 95% Hit Chance allowed me to keep the 4 test AVs perma-held.  I took some pictures and make some notes.  

 

Toon:  Mind/Psionic/Mace Dominator

 

Perma-hold note:  For the purpose of this test, I considered holding an AV for 5 minutes as permahold with the powers below.  I used the following active powers (no temps):

• Hover (+6% ToHit from Kismet)
• Tactics (5-slotted with Adjusted Targeting)
• Telekinesis (+6 mag Hold when Domination)
• Dominate (+6 mag Hold ... actually a +3 / +3 of different durations)
• Domination (perma)
• Hasten (perma)
• Nerve Radial Paragon (incarnate - 33% to Accuracy, Hold, and Confuse)
  • Not an active power, but vital for holding 54 AVs

 

AV NOTES & OBSERVATIONS

• Tyrant was the easiest to perma-hold.  He has mag45 hold protection from Purple Triangles, which translates to about 5 less mag protection overall.
• Ghost Widow needed to be mezzed repeatedly to detoggle her dark aura thingy.  Super technical description.
• Anti-Matter was strange.  Even when perma-held, he was still able to "wake up" and follow me, although he was not able to attack.  Kind of cool.  
• Giovanna.  Ah, our anomalous friend.  20% Psi Defense, plus Purple Patch, plus Purple Triangles.  She was a beast.  
  • She ALSO has a cycling period of mag 50 Sleep Protection, which is why she kept waking up and slapping me in the head.
  • I fixed that by adding Tactics, Kismet, and switching to Nerve Radial.  Now, Dominate and Confuse have 95% Hit Chance.
  • Once I simplified the Giovanna attack pattern, she was locked down like the rest.  Harder to solve, but solved nonetheless.
• Pictures below.  Hopefully everyone can see them.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Voltak]

If you log in today 

 

We can do the test on Giovanna outside of AE

In the same mission we tested together 

 

Should be quick 

 

And thank you very much for responding 

[Cenozoic]

Of course.  Hit me up in-game tonight.

[Voltak]

All right, 

We finally did some live testing.  I wholeheartedly thank Cenozoic for helping me do these tests, which I hope benefit everyone. 

These are the results. There are bad news and there are good news. 

Lvl 54 AV certainly was permanently held , no question.  

Shooting for a mag 60+  or greater is key as far as holds. 

You definitely want to see in the power analyzer a NEGATIVE 10 status protection on the Lvl 54 AV (they start off with +50) 

The AV at lvl 54 sheds off the magnitudes of those holds very quickly.   That brings us to the bad news. 

We observed that you have to make a choice 

1)  you permanently hold the AV 

or 

2). You proceed to kill the AV 

SOLO, we cannot seem to do both.  It's either 1 or 2. 

If you proceed with number 2, you must have

1) an attack chain that does more damage than the regen of the AV  happens to protect the health of the AV 

2) if you still intend to permanently hold the AV while doing number 1, your whole attack chain ( to include your hold power) must be fast enough to keep up with how fast the AV sheds off your hold magnitudes. 

In the test, it was not accomplished, and so far, no evidence has been provided that doing both solo is possible. 


So you choose to permanently hold the AV

OR 
You proceed to kill the AV 
Not both.  

At some points in the test the status protection was -10 , and given that the AV can shed 6 magnitudes extremely fast ( in a matter of 2 secs or 3 secs), if your attack chain takes longer than that before you cycle again to the hold, then time is against you and the AV will break free because all the AV needs is to go from negative 10 to Zero magnitude hold on the AV  to be able to break free if no hold is currently on the AV and once the AV  reaches +1 status protection , the 54 AV is attacking and hitting hard. 

The magnitudes are being shed by 6 (which is one mag 3 hold x 2) in a matter of a few seconds (2-3). 

If the AV reaches status protection of  negative 10 protection, then in 5 -7 seconds with no additional holds thrown in, that AV can reach +1 and at that point the AV is free, as long as  the triangles are back up again.   IF the triangles are down, the AV is still helpless if there is a lingering hold on the AV.  

These tests were done with a Mind dominator who has arguable the fastest animation hold in the game, so the odds of other dominators being able to do what no one has been able to prove, not even a Mind Dom, those odds  are even worse. 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Voltak

[Coyote]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:02 PM, Voltak said:

 

I have yet to see evidence that proves this claim that we can permanently hold or confuse any AV of equal level or above. 
...

PERMA hold has not been proven that I know of.  
Plenty of theories are out there.  
I am not looking for a debate nor do I mean this to disrespect anyone. 
I am looking for evidence, visual evidence, that this claim is true. 

 

I'll just state that I've perma-Held AVs with Fire/Psy (at least up to +1, I think +2s break out... not sure how high I'll be able to push it with a max-Incarnate build).

I've perma-Held AVs with Mind/Nrg (but only +0), but the Mind/Nrg can perma-Confuse to +2 without much issue. Not even 50 yet. Note, however, that this is a "for show" perma-Confuse, because I have to stick to +1 so that I can fit in a damaging attack chain that can break their Regen. Against +2s, Confuse has to be used almost as fast as it recharges, so I can't run Confuse-TF-Confuse-Burst-Snipe and still fit in occasional Power Build-Up, Hasten, and Domination without occasional lapses.

 

Now, as far as actual screenshots or video evidence, frankly, I'm only putting out this information to help players who might consider this plan. I don't actually care enough to persuade people that I'll bother to run a video while playing just to document it. If you trust me and want to make a build for this, good for you. If you trust me but aren't interested, that's fine. And if you don't trust me, frankly, it's your characters, run them as seems most fun to you.

[Voltak]

12 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

I'll just state that I've perma-Held AVs with Fire/Psy (at least up to +1, I think +2s break out... not sure how high I'll be able to push it with a max-Incarnate build).

I've perma-Held AVs with Mind/Nrg (but only +0), but the Mind/Nrg can perma-Confuse to +2 without much issue. Not even 50 yet. Note, however, that this is a "for show" perma-Confuse, because I have to stick to +1 so that I can fit in a damaging attack chain that can break their Regen. Against +2s, Confuse has to be used almost as fast as it recharges, so I can't run Confuse-TF-Confuse-Burst-Snipe and still fit in occasional Power Build-Up, Hasten, and Domination without occasional lapses.

 

Now, as far as actual screenshots or video evidence, frankly, I'm only putting out this information to help players who might consider this plan. I don't actually care enough to persuade people that I'll bother to run a video while playing just to document it. If you trust me and want to make a build for this, good for you. If you trust me but aren't interested, that's fine. And if you don't trust me, frankly, it's your characters, run them as seems most fun to you.

NO need for evidence anymore.  After doing testing, substantial testing and looking at live numbers, we got it down.  

The results are in the post directly above yours. 

There were good and there were bad news. 

But we got it done.  

Cheers, friend. 

[Obus Form]

Sorry to necro an old thread and thank you @Cenozoic and @Voltak for testing.  Is permanent holding an AV possible for raids or only 8 man TFs?

 

[VV]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:07 AM, Obus Form said:

Sorry to necro an old thread and thank you @Cenozoic and @Voltak for testing.  Is permanent holding an AV possible for raids or only 8 man TFs?

 

 

Like which raids?

[Obus Form]

4 hours ago, VV said:

Like which raids?

Any of the incarnate trials or the new ASF?