Weekly Discussion 40: Peacebringers

[Greycat]

21 minutes ago, mrfreedom said:

MY issue isn't PEBKAC. 

Thus the "most" in my statement. (And I hate counting seekers in any attack chain. Since I've had them just float around sitting on an enemy's head without exploding through a fight. I'd be happy to drop three exploding seekers for one essence-type pet.)

[Redlynne]

22 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Thus the "most" in my statement. (And I hate counting seekers in any attack chain. Since I've had them just float around sitting on an enemy's head without exploding through a fight. I'd be happy to drop three exploding seekers for one essence-type pet.)

I'm guessing that the reason why Seekers "fail to detonate on contact" is because they've missed their ToHit roll ... so they "can't detonate" and they just trail around vapor locked onto a $Target they can't hit and therefore can't self-destruct upon to do damage to them.  Either that or they've got a "must be this close to detonate" trigger built into them and their Follow pathing to $Target runs into the same problem as doing a Follow on a $Target while Hovering does ... you automatically stop short of being within melee range and can't "reach" your $Target unless you move forward that last little fraction of inches ... and because Photon Seekers are DUMB and controlled by the NPC pathing AI they just never get into range to blow themselves up.

 

Either one of those problems would be relatively simple enough to test for by changing parameters in the code (always hit, so no accuracy needed ... increase proximity range needed for detonation by 1-3 feet of radius).  And best of all, it could potentially be both factors at the same time(!) leading to a non-trivial amount of QA testing needed to validate that all of the angles on the issue have been covered.

[...]

On 3/2/2020 at 8:06 AM, Redlynne said:

<snip>

 

Have 1 slot in Nova Form and all of your Nova Form powers have 1 slots in them.

Have 6 slots in Nova Form and all of your Nova Form powers (now) have 6 slots in each of them ... courtesy of slotting up Nova Form.

 

A sort of "a slot here adds slots there" type of functionality, which to my knowledge is completely unsupported by the City of Heroes game engine elements governing this part of the game system.

I think that power creep would be extremely high here. That's a lot of extra slots, and therefore a lot of extra set bonuses. Especially if it was also considered for dwarf form. The recharge and defense values that could be stacked...

 

Even "human only" builds would take nova and dwarf just to mule sets for their bonuses. 

 

I also have no idea how they would balance this. Lot's playtesting necessary.

 

It would also make kitting out a Kheld considerably more expensive. Which isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but is a consideration. 

 

It might be reasonable if the bonus slots in nova and dwarf accepted only basic SOs and IOs, letting the forms feel powerful without power creep. Players could still get set bonuses from their human abilities. 

 

But then... isn't the point of HEATs that there are a lot of ways to build them? I think we'd lose some of the distinction between multi form and human only builds if it were "easy" to make the forms powerful. 

 

I think it's a lot simpler to buff the AT in general. More slots is probably Pandora's box. 

[siolfir]

I keep seeing "make Dwarf taunt autohit" come up as a suggestion. It already is.

 

 

 

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Vooded said:

More slots is probably Pandora's box.

It is.

The problem is that the forms add powers that NEED slots ... to the tune of some 11 slots minimum for Nova and some 16 slots minimum for Dwarf ... which adds up to a minimum of 27 out of 67 additional slots available ... and that number of slots for forms can easily increase beyond that towards 30 out of 67.  That's a MINIMUM demand for 40% of the slots you get (27/67=0.403)!  That's a HUGE chunk to take out of anyone!

 

Now, I'm willing to negotiate on whether a 1 per 1 gain of slots in the form powers ought to add slots to every single form power granted (since 1:1 would probably create knock on side effects like you're suggesting here as being "too good not to take advantage of") ... but the flipside to that is that a 0 per 1 ratio is simply too low.  As to where that Goldilocks Point would be is something that would need to be tested and verified ... but I'm (now) thinking that maybe a 1 "free" slot in form powers for the 3rd slot and 6th slot (so +2 and +5 additional slots) might be close to that Goldilocks Point for how many slots to grant to form powers for investing in the form itself.  The limit of 6 slots per power would still remain in place (obviously).

 

Nova Form: 1-2 Slot

Nova Bolt: +0 "free" slots

Nova Blast: +0 "free" slots

Nova Scatter: +0 "free" slots

Nova Detonation: +0 "free" slots

 

Nova Form: 3-5 Slots

Nova Bolt: +1 "free" slots

Nova Blast: +1 "free" slots

Nova Scatter: +1 "free" slots

Nova Detonation: +1 "free" slots

 

Nova Form: 6 Slots

Nova Bolt: +2 "free" slots

Nova Blast: +2 "free" slots

Nova Scatter: +2 "free" slots

Nova Detonation: +2 "free" slots

 

Right now, currently, if you put +0 slots into Nova Form and then 6-slot all four of the form attack powers, that costs you +20 additional slots (out of +67 total).  With the above ratios, if you put +5 slots into Nova form, in order to 6-slot all four of the form attack powers would cost an addition +12 slots (since they would have 3 slots courtesy of Nova Form slotting) ... for a total cost of +17 slots for 5 powers (Nova plus 4 form attack powers) instead of +20 slots for only the 4 attack powers and no slotting in Nova form.

 

And just to lay cards on the table for this, purely for cross-comparison purposes with known build factors, my own personal Peacebringer build would benefit from this structural change like so:

 

Nova Form: 1 Slot (current build for reference)

Nova Bolt: +0 slots added

Nova Blast: +4 slots added

Nova Scatter: +3 slots added

Nova Detonation: +5 slots added

= +12 slots added

= 17 total slots available (average 3.4 slots per power)

 

Nova Form: 3 Slots (using this proposal for reference) ... +2 slots added

Nova Bolt: +1 "free" slot ... +0 slots added

Nova Blast: +1 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

Nova Scatter: +1 "free" slot ... +2 slots added

Nova Detonation: +1 "free" slot ... +4 slots added

= +11 slots added ... gaining 2 slots (total) on Nova Form and 1 slot (free) on Nova Bolt

= 20 total slots available (average 4 slots per power)

 

Nova Form: 6 Slots (using this proposal for reference) ... +5 slots added

Nova Bolt: +2 "free" slot ... +0 slots added

Nova Blast: +2 "free" slot ... +2 slots added

Nova Scatter: +2 "free" slot ... +1 slots added

Nova Detonation: +2 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

= +11 slots added (still) ... gaining 5 slots (total) on Nova Form and 2 slots (free) on Nova Bolt

= 24 total slots available (average 4.8 slots per power)

 

So in terms of investment expenditure ... and return on investment ... my own personal build for a Tri-form Peacebringer would net gain +1 additional slot to invest outside of Nova Form (so not much change there), whether I put 3 slots or 6 slots into Nova Form itself, relative to the baseline current formulation of not granting ANY additional slots to form powers for investment into the power for that form itself ... which sounds like it won't change all THAT much on the demand for slots overall at level ups, but which makes it possible for Nova form to be markedly more "useful" overall thanks to the added slots for the form powers.

 

 

 

Doing the exact same thing for the Dwarf Form powers from my own personal build for a Tri-form Peacebringer yields these results:

 

Dwarf Form: 2 Slot (current build for reference) ... +1 slot added

Dwarf Strike: +4 slots added

Dwarf Smite: +4 slots added

Dwarf Flare: +4 slots added

Dwarf Sublimation: +5 slots added

Dwarf Antagonize: +0 slots added

Dwarf Step: + 0 slots added

= +18 slots added

= 25 total slots available (average 3.57 per power)

 

Dwarf Form: 3 Slot (using this proposal for reference) ... +2 slots added

Dwarf Strike: +1 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

Dwarf Smite: +1 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

Dwarf Flare: +1 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

Dwarf Sublimation: +1 "free" slot ... +4 slots added

Dwarf Antagonize: +1 "free" slot ... +0 slots added

Dwarf Step: +1 "free" slot ... + 0 slots added

= +15 slots added

= 28 total slots available (average 4 per power)

 

Dwarf Form: 6 Slot (using this proposal for reference) ... +5 slots added

Dwarf Strike: +2 "free" slot ... +2 slots added

Dwarf Smite: +2 "free" slot ... +2 slots added

Dwarf Flare: +2 "free" slot ... +2 slots added

Dwarf Sublimation: +2 "free" slot ... +3 slots added

Dwarf Antagonize: +2 "free" slot ... +0 slots added

Dwarf Step: +2 "free" slot ... + 0 slots added

= +14 slots added

= 33 total slots available (average 4.71 per power)

 

So in terms of investment expenditure ... and return on investment ... my own personal build for a Tri-form Peacebringer would net gain +3 to +4 additional slots to invest outside of Dwarf Form, whether I put 3 slots or 6 slots into Dwarf Form itself, relative to the baseline current formulation of not granting ANY additional slots to form powers for investment into the power for that form itself ... which is starting to sound a bit more useful for relieving the slot crunch faced by Tri-Form builds.

 

Take the proposed changes for Nova and Dwarf forms and you wind up with as much as a potential +5 additional slots that can be spent anywhere on the build (which would definitely be helpful!) ... which is basically enough to 6-slot one more power that under current game circumstances would need to remain a One Slot Wonder™ power due to lack of available slots for investment.  So a marginal improvement on slot crunch pressure, rather than an overwhelming improvement (that then needs to be nerfed into oblivion because it's just TOO GOOD).

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[Redlynne]

34 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I keep seeing "make Dwarf taunt autohit" come up as a suggestion. It already is.

 

ALL Taunts are autohit versus $Targets that are not AVs and GMs.  The only time you need accuracy on a Taunt power, regardless of Archetype, is when you're trying to use it on an Archvillain/Hero or Giant Monster (for what ought to be obvious reasons).

[Chris24601]

In terms of slots, the only reasonable solutions I can devise that are fair to the other ATs are,

 

A) instead of adding new powers in the forms, it modifies your existing powers... basically take the same process that let’s nova keep glinting eye and dwarf to keep the gleaming bolt and apply it across the board. The upside is fewer things to slot. The downside is if you don’t take one of the attacks the form uses, your form won’t have that attack either.

 

B) The form attacks can’t be directly slotted, but pull their enhancement values from the slots in the main form. The downside there is dwarf needs many more categories of enhancements than Nova would (Nova six-slotted with a damage set would cover basically everything it does; dwarf needs damage, resistance and taunt at the minimum).

 

C) The values for the form attacks scale automatically as if slotted with a generic attuned IO set (i.e. enhancement bonuses, but not set bonuses) while the forms themselves are modified by the usual to-hit buff, fly, resist and end mods enhancement slotting. To make up for the lack of control, some of the secondary effects that are rarely slotted for (ex. Defense debuffs from PB attacks) might also be enhanced.

 

B+C) The attacks scale based on the enhancements sloted in the form power (as with B), but the other effects (ex. damage resist, taunt and teleport for dwarf, fly speed and to-hit buffs for nova) scale with character level as if slotted (as in C).

 

The ideal for me needs a Standard Code Rant warning... the attacks are buffs per option C, but the bonus is conditional with the number of slots in the form (i.e. four slots in nova means their attacks are enhanced as if they had four slots in each).

[Call Me Awesome]

13 hours ago, MrSnottyPants said:

How did you make this work?  I've tried to make a bind that turns off Nova, and turns on Combat Flight, but it requires 2 clicks.  And I have to wait a bit or the second click doesn't take.  Which means I drop 5 to 10 feet.

 

This stuff, more than anything else, frustrates me to where I stop playing the PB for a bit.  That and Incandescent Strike taking so long to activate...

I'll have to look it up to make sure but I think it's like this:

Human - "powexectoggleoff bright nova$$powexectoggleoff white dwarf$$powexectoggleon combat jumping$$powexectoggleon shining shield$$powexecname inner light$$goto tray1"

Nova - "powexectoggleon bright nova$$goto tray4"

Dwarf - "powexectoggleon white dwarf$$goto tray5"

 

The first press of the human key drops me to Human, changes the bottom tray to my human form power tray and turns on CJ, the second press turns on Shining Shield and the third press fires off Inner Light.  Yes, sometimes it doesn't register a button press, if that happens just push it again... since they're all toggle on commands it will eventually activate them all.  The Nova button shifts me to Nova and changes the bottom tray to my Nova powers while the Dwarf turns me to Dwarf and swaps to the Dwarf power tray.  You can use whatever tray you wish, I just use tray 1 for my Human attacks and whatnot, tray 2 & 3 are extra powers, tray 4 is just the Nova powers and tray 5 is just the Dwarf powers.

 

[...]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Thoughts?

This is super complicated. 

 

Because of set bonuses, slots = power. But in a way that is hard for developers to directly control. Particularly if new sets are added or players find creative slotting options. 

 

Honestly, just increase the power of the AT overall. 

 

Another reasonable option might be:

31 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

C) The values for the form attacks scale automatically as if slotted with a generic attuned IO set (i.e. enhancement bonuses, but not set bonuses) while the forms themselves are modified by the usual to-hit buff, fly, resist and end mods enhancement slotting. To make up for the lack of control, some of the secondary effects that are rarely slotted for (ex. Defense debuffs from PB attacks) might also be enhanced.

Make the nova and dwarf attacks similar to jaunt or translocation. 

 

Gives developers direct control over them (ie easy fine tuning, so that the powers can be, you know, good) without allowing/forcing players to slot loads of set bonuses. 

 

All that said, I'm still not convinced that all 3 forms need to be powerful at once. A player who devotes a lot of slots to dwarf and nova, but neglects human, has made a choice. A different player who devotes all their slots to human has made a different choice. To me, this is the crux of the epic ATs. 

[Call Me Awesome]

3 minutes ago, Vooded said:

This is super complicated. 

 

Because of set bonuses, slots = power. But in a way that is hard for developers to directly control. Particularly if new sets are added or players find creative slotting options. 

 

Honestly, just increase the power of the AT overall. 

 

Another reasonable option might be:

Make the nova and dwarf attacks similar to jaunt or translocation. 

 

Gives developers direct control over them (ie easy fine tuning, so that the powers can be, you know, good) without allowing/forcing players to slot loads of set bonuses. 

 

All that said, I'm still not convinced that all 3 forms need to be powerful at once. A player who devotes a lot of slots to dwarf and nova, but neglects human, has made a choice. A different player who devotes all their slots to human has made a different choice. To me, this is the crux of the epic ATs. 

While that would simplify things it would also end up being a nerf to the current power levels because you would loose a LOT of set bonuses.  Assuming you're slotting like many Tri Form builds you'll have the Nova and Dwarf powers all 4-6 slotted.  That's quite a few IO bonuses you'd be loosing.  It's going to be tough to juggle overpowering the bonuses with nerfing them.

[...]

19 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

While that would simplify things it would also end up being a nerf to the current power levels because you would loose a LOT of set bonuses.  Assuming you're slotting like many Tri Form builds you'll have the Nova and Dwarf powers all 4-6 slotted.  That's quite a few IO bonuses you'd be loosing.  It's going to be tough to juggle overpowering the bonuses with nerfing them.

I'm not sure I follow. You'd still have 67 slots to distribute, you just wouldn't be able to put them in nova or dwarf specific powers (so those slots would go into human powers). Like every other AT. 

 

Overall, it would be a buff in the sense that all 3 forms would be powerful in a given build. 

 

It would drastically change builds though. So I'm not a huge fan. 

 

Again, I think it's simpler to just buff the AT overall. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Vooded
Clarity

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Vooded said:

All that said, I'm still not convinced that all 3 forms need to be powerful at once. A player who devotes a lot of slots to dwarf and nova, but neglects human, has made a choice. A different player who devotes all their slots to human has made a different choice. To me, this is the crux of the epic ATs. 

The problem is that if the choice is to be a sub-par tanker or sub-par blaster or sub-par sentinel; its a choice that shouldn't need to be made. Its anything BUT epic at the moment.

 

The fundamental problem with the AT is that the mechanics of the game don't reward "Jack of All Trades" it rewards specializing and leaves those jacks as basically "masters of none."

 

I have a scrapper right now who could deal out ranged damage as well as a nova (claws + ancillary fire) and tank probably as well a dwarf (willpower rise to the challenge + confront + spin/damage in general) while doing superior damage in melee and with mez protection... without even needing change forms to do it (i.e. if I have a runner while I'm in the middle of melee, I just throw a focus or a fire blast at it; I don't need to drop to human form and give up my resistance and mez protection just to get it).

 

If it doesn't have to make a choice between those options why should a PB?

 

ETA: If you want the slotting to determine the focus, then the options have to be good enough that if you choose dwarf you can tank like a tanker because you can't blast like a blaster or be a sentinel in human form as effectively... the lack of slots alone will keep it from being able to be all things at once.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Chris24601

[GM Miss]

This thread is now locked, check the suggestions thread for a recap later this weekend 😄