Rad/rad vs rad/sonic

[sayrir]

Trying to pick which one of these I want to play.

 

I'm trying to figure out which two of these builds has more AoE in the end, and wether the - res from /sonic adds up to more damage compared to the the - def on /rad, in a solo situation. Guessing both should be fine in a group, since it's a defender after all?

[Psyonico]

Rad/Sonic was considered one of the best combos on Live. You absolutely will do more damage with Sonic's -res than with Rad's -def.

 

That being said, rad has 3 aoes where Sonic has essentially one.

 

Rad/Sonic for AV killing, rad/rad for trash killing.

[Frosticus]

/rad blast is in a pretty good spot these days. Reliable application of Achilles, tons of procs and a very hard hitting 1-2 snipe + cosmic.

 

/sonic hasn't really changed. Unreal single target debuffing and good aoe control. 

[Hedgefund]

Howl + Shockwave gives Sonic a legit aoe chain.  Just put a -kB proc in a Shockwave.  For added yucks include a chance to kd proc in Howl.

[Hjarki]

They're both a bit problematic.

 

Sonic was popular on Live, but isn't nearly as effective on Homecoming. The problem is that while Sonic's powers do debuff -resist, most of them don't do so very effectively. The metric I like to use for a rough comparison is (amount debuffed) * (duration debuffed) / (activation time). By this metric:

Envenom = 37.5 * 30 / 1.584 = 710

Corrosive Enzymes = 25 * 30 / 1.188 = 631

Weaken Resolve w/Achilles Heel = (17.3 * 15) + (20 * .9 * 10) / 2.244 = 340

Screech = 20 * 174 / 1.716 = 174

Infrigidate w/Achilles Heel = 20 * .9 * 10 / 1.188 = 152

Piercing Beam w/Annihilation = (20 + 20 * .32) * 10 / 2.508 = 105

Shriek = 20 * 5 / 1.188 = 84

Scream = 20 * 7 / 1.848 = 76

Shout = 20 * 10 / 2.904 = 69

Howl = 20 * 8 / 2.508 = 64

 

This isn't a comprehensive list, but it should showcase how weak most Sonic attacks are at debuffing -resist compared to the alternatives. One of those - Weaken Resolve - is available to any build and will by itself debuff about half of the entire Sonic rotation. Unlike the Sonic rotation, using Weaken Resolve still leaves you plenty of opportunities to do other things - such as those high value debuffs from support sets.

 

Moreover, when you debuff -resist it's important to have something to take advantage of that -resist debuffing. Which Sonic doesn't provide. Not only aren't there many slotting opportunities for procs in Sonic, but the base damage of those powers is lower than other sets.

 

Radiation is a more viable set. It has the best PBAoE non-ultimate, an acceptable (if second class) target AoE and a PBAoE ultimate roughly equivalent to most such powers. For single target, it has a mid-speed Sniper attack that can be heavily proc-slotted. However, the -defense component of Radiation is essentially worthless (beyond slotting opportunities) because even basic IO builds cap hit chance with trivial ease. I'd consider Radiation one of the stronger sets for AE - as long as you're willing to mix it up in melee range. However, Radiation isn't one of the stronger single target sets.

 

 

[sayrir]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

They're both a bit problematic.

 

Sonic was popular on Live, but isn't nearly as effective on Homecoming. The problem is that while Sonic's powers do debuff -resist, most of them don't do so very effectively. The metric I like to use for a rough comparison is (amount debuffed) * (duration debuffed) / (activation time). By this metric:

Envenom = 37.5 * 30 / 1.584 = 710

Corrosive Enzymes = 25 * 30 / 1.188 = 631

Weaken Resolve w/Achilles Heel = (17.3 * 15) + (20 * .9 * 10) / 2.244 = 340

Screech = 20 * 174 / 1.716 = 174

Infrigidate w/Achilles Heel = 20 * .9 * 10 / 1.188 = 152

Piercing Beam w/Annihilation = (20 + 20 * .32) * 10 / 2.508 = 105

Shriek = 20 * 5 / 1.188 = 84

Scream = 20 * 7 / 1.848 = 76

Shout = 20 * 10 / 2.904 = 69

Howl = 20 * 8 / 2.508 = 64

 

This isn't a comprehensive list, but it should showcase how weak most Sonic attacks are at debuffing -resist compared to the alternatives. One of those - Weaken Resolve - is available to any build and will by itself debuff about half of the entire Sonic rotation. Unlike the Sonic rotation, using Weaken Resolve still leaves you plenty of opportunities to do other things - such as those high value debuffs from support sets.

 

Moreover, when you debuff -resist it's important to have something to take advantage of that -resist debuffing. Which Sonic doesn't provide. Not only aren't there many slotting opportunities for procs in Sonic, but the base damage of those powers is lower than other sets.

 

Radiation is a more viable set. It has the best PBAoE non-ultimate, an acceptable (if second class) target AoE and a PBAoE ultimate roughly equivalent to most such powers. For single target, it has a mid-speed Sniper attack that can be heavily proc-slotted. However, the -defense component of Radiation is essentially worthless (beyond slotting opportunities) because even basic IO builds cap hit chance with trivial ease. I'd consider Radiation one of the stronger sets for AE - as long as you're willing to mix it up in melee range. However, Radiation isn't one of the stronger single target sets.

 

 

So by this logic, since the - def on radiation blast doesn't really do anything later on, I could just go fire blast and have both the ST and AoE covered?  Too bad fire blast kinda messes with my characters theme... 

Edited April 5, 2020 by sayrir

[sayrir]

3 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

Howl + Shockwave gives Sonic a legit aoe chain.  Just put a -kB proc in a Shockwave.  For added yucks include a chance to kd proc in Howl.

The problem I found with these two powers was that they're cone and not AoE. Initially I figured I was ok with this, but then I got to around actually trying both, and it just feels wonky to try and AoE with them, but this is just my personal experience. 

[Hjarki]

11 minutes ago, sayrir said:

So by this logic, since the - def on radiation blast doesn't really do anything later on, I could just go fire blast and have both the ST and AoE covered?  Too bad fire blast kinda messes with my characters theme... 

Well, it does allow you to slot more procs. With Fire Blast, you get two procs in the Sniper Blast, one proc in the other single target and then one purple proc to put where you please. This is fine if you're playing a Blaster. For a Defender, it means losing a lot of potential damage.

 

[sayrir]

Think I'll go rad/rad(partly because I can't be assed to make a new costume), thank you all for the insights. 

[Frosticus]

Fire blast still outperforms other sets even with procs factored in due to the speed of the attacks and the added dot.

The fact that it isn't dependent on procs means you can get the attacks cycling way faster and lean even heavier upon blaze. Other sets can't do that without lowering their proc damage considerably. 

 

That said, cosmic burst+proton jammed with procs offers among the hardest hitting combo a defender can do. Cosmic is a bit slow though and you can't really improve the recharge much without reducing the potential. 

 

The duration of the -res found in sonic blast is largely irrelevant. it only needs to last long enough to defeat things. The set is governed by animation times more than any other factor, but has no issues keeping 3 stacks of -res going even on SO's. 4-5 stacks is common with the nuke and IO's factored in. It's not my first choice for solo (previously had a 50 storm/son and 50 rad/son), but it is pretty unreal with a friend or two. 

[Without_Pause]

16 hours ago, Hjarki said:

This isn't a comprehensive list, but it should showcase how weak most Sonic attacks are at debuffing -resist compared to the alternatives.

I feel like shouting from the mountain tops you can stack those other powers with Sonic. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

I feel like shouting from the mountain tops you can stack those other powers with Sonic. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, you can stack them. But you've only got so much activation time - and you need to use some of that activation time to actually deal damage or your debuffing is pointless. So once you've stacked on the high value -resist debuffs, you're left with Sonic attacks that are both low value debuffing and low value damage. You're better off just using high value debuffs and then using the remaining activation time for high value damage.

14 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Fire blast still outperforms other sets even with procs factored in due to the speed of the attacks and the added dot.

The fact that it isn't dependent on procs means you can get the attacks cycling way faster and lean even heavier upon blaze. Other sets can't do that without lowering their proc damage considerably. 

 

That said, cosmic burst+proton jammed with procs offers among the hardest hitting combo a defender can do. Cosmic is a bit slow though and you can't really improve the recharge much without reducing the potential. 

 

The duration of the -res found in sonic blast is largely irrelevant. it only needs to last long enough to defeat things. The set is governed by animation times more than any other factor, but has no issues keeping 3 stacks of -res going even on SO's. 4-5 stacks is common with the nuke and IO's factored in. It's not my first choice for solo (previously had a 50 storm/son and 50 rad/son), but it is pretty unreal with a friend or two. 

A few things have changed since the heyday of Fire.

 

First, the proc changes have made Fireball not a viable part of a single target rotation. While Fireball can slot quite a few procs, they have a very low proc chance (for a single target attack).

 

Second, the sniper changes have completed up-ended the various sets by giving a number of sets fairly fast massive damage attacks. As it turns out, Blazing Bolt is amongst the worst (slowest) of the sniper attacks - it's barely more effective than Blaze.

 

Third, any Defender can take Dominate/Char - attacks that, when slotted, perform about the same as Blaze.

 

Fourth, we're not really modeling 'rotations' for Defenders since they're not reflective of how most Defenders work. On a Blaster, you can reasonably assume that you'll spend essentially all of your time Blasting. On a Defender, significant chunks of time are spent 'Defending'. This means that the low value parts of the rotation - such as the tier one blasts - are simply omitted and it's all about the high value parts of the rotation.

 

So if we're comparing Fire to Radiation, what we've got:

Radiation: Massive Attack (Proton Volley), Strong Attack (Dominate/Char)

Fire: Strong Attack (Blazing Bolt), Strong Attack (Blaze), Strong Attack (Dominate/Char)

 

Depending on how 'busy' your secondary is, if you push the balance of your attacks towards Proton Volley, you'll out-damage Fire. If you don't have much else to do besides blast, you'll push it towards the Fire 'rotation'. It's also worth mentioning that Weaken Resolve can almost entirely replace your low value first/second tier attacks due to the conjunction of its proc opportunities and -resist.

 

Now, I'd argue that Fire is a reasonable choice for Radiation since it isn't a very busy set. Going with Fire also allows you to gain more set bonuses than the multi-proc slotting method, so it can be easier to build and have some flexibility elsewhere. Fire also looks better on Corruptors and especially Blasters since they have a higher base damage but get the same value from procs. However, the ability to slot near-constant Achilles Heel can't be overlooked either - and probably puts Radiation Blast out in front for Defenders.

 

Also, if you're deciding on Fire Blast, you need to seriously consider playing the Corruptor version of your build - Fire gets stronger the better your base damage is.

 

In terms of the duration of the -res on Sonic, it does matter a great deal because it's the determining factor on how much you can stack. Also, if you're just fighting relatively weak targets, Sonic is awful because it has weak upfront damage and any -resist beyond the life of the target is wasted.

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Hjarki

[Frosticus]

That's an awful long post with a lot of incorrect conclusions.

 

Either that or we play very differently. That is ok too.

[Peacemoon]

-def is useful, but more at low levels when accuracy isn’t great, or when fighting really high level stuff. Otherwise most people solve their accuracy problems and it is overkill. The best thing about -def overkill (like in rad blast) is slotting the Achilles heel -res proc. 

Otherwise one that often gets overlooked but shouldn’t is the type of powers each blast has. If you are going to be up close to the enemies and amongst them you want to focus on PBAOE and AOE. Cones are useful, but it means you have to be a mid range, or prepare to hop out to attack. This alone will probably affect you more than the type of (debuff or not).

[Auroxis]

On 4/5/2020 at 7:23 AM, Hjarki said:

They're both a bit problematic.

 

Sonic was popular on Live, but isn't nearly as effective on Homecoming. The problem is that while Sonic's powers do debuff -resist, most of them don't do so very effectively. The metric I like to use for a rough comparison is (amount debuffed) * (duration debuffed) / (activation time). By this metric:

Envenom = 37.5 * 30 / 1.584 = 710

Corrosive Enzymes = 25 * 30 / 1.188 = 631

Weaken Resolve w/Achilles Heel = (17.3 * 15) + (20 * .9 * 10) / 2.244 = 340

Screech = 20 * 174 / 1.716 = 174

Infrigidate w/Achilles Heel = 20 * .9 * 10 / 1.188 = 152

Piercing Beam w/Annihilation = (20 + 20 * .32) * 10 / 2.508 = 105

Shriek = 20 * 5 / 1.188 = 84

Scream = 20 * 7 / 1.848 = 76

Shout = 20 * 10 / 2.904 = 69

Howl = 20 * 8 / 2.508 = 64

 

This isn't a comprehensive list, but it should showcase how weak most Sonic attacks are at debuffing -resist compared to the alternatives. One of those - Weaken Resolve - is available to any build and will by itself debuff about half of the entire Sonic rotation. Unlike the Sonic rotation, using Weaken Resolve still leaves you plenty of opportunities to do other things - such as those high value debuffs from support sets.

You're elevating the importance of achilles' heel and debuff duration to really high levels, and completely ignoring stackability. -res procs (which sonic can have, in dreadful wail) do not stack from multiple casters, while Sonic Attack debuffs can stack from the same caster.

 

In a team scenario against an AV, your Achilles' Heel procs are likely to do nothing due to how commonly they're slotted, while Sonic can stack up to about -100% res (before resists+level difference of course).

 

On 4/5/2020 at 7:23 AM, Hjarki said:

Moreover, when you debuff -resist it's important to have something to take advantage of that -resist debuffing. Which Sonic doesn't provide. Not only aren't there many slotting opportunities for procs in Sonic, but the base damage of those powers is lower than other sets.

Or you know, play with teammates on your team-oriented class.