Poison Guide

[Hjarki]

24 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Using Venomous Gas rewards you with a -25% res debuff that doesn't cost you animation time. *shrug* I don't know, it seems pretty clear cut to me. -res is -res no matter if it's applied to a melee power, ranged attack or PBAoE. The damage increase is the same. The reward is the same.

I think sticking to "melee powerset goes best with melee powerset" severely restricts your choices for no reason and even keeps you away from some top performing combos. OK, Controllers can get Hot Feet and Seismic Smash. With these options, can they match the sheer damage i.e. Poison/Fire puts out? That's the question worth asking, in my opinion.

 

Pretty easily, I imagine. Remember, Controllers have almost double the Damage Scale of Defenders once you take into account Containment. Something like Fire/Poison/Earth would also be able to field Hecatomb, Will of the Controller, Overpowering Presence, Apocalypse and Unbreakable Constraint procs - which is a lot of extra damage.

[nihilii]

I don't understand how Overpowering Presence fits into this. I wasn't sure if I was confusing it with the Dominator Fiery Orb, so I went ahead and tried the Superior version.

The PPM is pretty bad according to macskull's sheet (2 PPM), which coupled with the +recharge part of the IO, makes chances to proc in even an unenhanced Char pretty low (~26%?).

The Energy Font itself does a tiny tick of AoE damage when it appears, then 5 more similar ticks until it dies (provided it's in range of the enemy). Total damage was 60 against a level 51 minion with no resistances. Basically, roughly even with a damage proc in ST but with worse PPM.

 

Of course, it can also do AoE damage if enemies are close and stick together, so perhaps that's your angle.

Personally, I'm not concerned about AoE damage. Or more accurately, I need all the ST damage I can get. The white whale here is Frosticus' own Poison/Fire dealing 400+ ST DPS against a Pylon. For a controller to "easily" top that, I'd expect to go at least to 600+ if we tried hard. But to be honest, I'm not sure I will even get to 400 with my own Fire/Poison/Psi (admittedly not Earth, but...).

 

[Frosticus]

Is the assertion that controllers can survive in melee range better?

Or is the assertion that controllers have more potent melee range abilities to leverage?

 

If the former, that is a given. They have an entire suite of controls that enable you to mitigate entire spawns.

If the latter I'd say that is debatable.

 

Perma soul drain and pbaoe nukes are a pretty good incentive to get comfortable hanging around in melee range. Sure you can hope to just pop in to use them, but if you aren't strong enough, or comfortable enough playing in melee range, you will probably die often. 

[Uun]

I have a lvl 48 Illusion/Poison/Stone. It's pretty darn survivable in melee range. With 5 procs in Poison Trap, everything but the bosses dies almost immediately. 

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

The PPM is pretty bad according to macskull's sheet (2 PPM), which coupled with the +recharge part of the IO, makes chances to proc in even an unenhanced Char pretty low (~26%?).

The Energy Font itself does a tiny tick of AoE damage when it appears, then 5 more similar ticks until it dies (provided it's in range of the enemy). Total damage was 60 against a level 51 minion with no resistances. Basically, roughly even with a damage proc in ST but with worse PPM.

 

Of course, it can also do AoE damage if enemies are close and stick together, so perhaps that's your angle.

Personally, I'm not concerned about AoE damage. Or more accurately, I need all the ST damage I can get. The white whale here is Frosticus' own Poison/Fire dealing 400+ ST DPS against a Pylon. For a controller to "easily" top that, I'd expect to go at least to 600+ if we tried hard. But to be honest, I'm not sure I will even get to 400 with my own Fire/Poison/Psi (admittedly not Earth, but...).

You normally wouldn't slot Overpowering Presence (or Will of the Controller) into the single target Hold because they contain recharge and reduce the proc chances of all the other procs you place in it. You place procs like that into long recharge powers like Poison Trap where they have essentially capped proc chances but you can still benefit from the recharge.

 

In terms of single target damage, a Controller would have a setup (w/+100% damage) similar to:

• Char: 67 * 2 + 72 + 72 + 38 + 38 = 354 / 1.188 = 298
• Cross Punch: 109 * 2  + 60 = 278 / 1.848 = 150
• Seismic Smash: 160 * 2 + 107 + 72 = 499 / 1.716 = 291
• +10% or so from Fury of the Gladiator procs
• Higher recharge due to Cross Punch and more accessible purple sets
• Minor additional dps from Bonfire/Hot Feet
• Potential for extremely high dpa from Fire Imps
• Damage for above is for minimal slotting (w/5-set purple bonuses); full proc slotting is much higher dpa

The Defender Fire variant would have:

• Blaze: 99 * 2 + 88 + 46 = 332 / 1.188 = 279
• Blazing Bolt (assuming full +hit): 112 * 2 + 67 + 67 = 358 / 1.33 = 270
• Flares: 37 * 2 + 13 = 87 / 1.188 = 73 
• Intermittently higher +damage due to Aim.
• Normally have gaps in the rotation

An Ice Blast variant:

• Bitter Ice Blast: 82 * 2 + 102 + 56 + 56 + 56 = 434 / 1.188 = 365
• Freeze Ray: 72 * 2 + 102 + 47 + 47 + 47 = 387 / 1.32 = 293
• Ice Bolt: 36 * 2 + 22 + 22 = 116 / 1.188 = 98 

[Frosticus]

Wouldn't a defender that is chasing st damage pick up dominate/char just as a troller picks up seismic?

Also, as much as I love seismic on my plant/poison/stone that I wrote a small guide for several months ago, it is pretty hard to fit a 28sec rech, 18.5 endurance, attack into any normal chain. 

 

your numbers are questionable at best. 

-Why does the troller have the same +dam as a defender when defenders have vigilance?

-You say fireblast has gaps in its chain and then proceed to cite a 8, 8, 28 sec powers for the troller

-You've listed proc damages, but do you fill the void in these attack chains with brawl? At least it would be contained for the troller...

 

That said, built it. I don't think anyone doubts that a fire/poison troller can do good damage. You'll likely discover the same thing my fire/storm troller discovered. You can't count on imps. 

I actually built my poison/fire def because I could see the potential enough to follow it through, tweak it, rebuild it, and ultimately end up with a character that can tackle just about anything you throw its way. I did it largely to demonstrate that poison is quite capable, which is something my previous plant/poison/stone was unable to demonstrate clearly as plant and /stone can obscure things.

 

Remember to see whose is bigger - your seismic smash, or crimson prototypes energy transfer :)

[Hjarki]

29 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Wouldn't a defender that is chasing st damage pick up dominate/char just as a troller picks up seismic?

Also, as much as I love seismic on my plant/poison/stone that I wrote a small guide for several months ago, it is pretty hard to fit a 28sec rech, 18.5 endurance, attack into any normal chain. 

 

your numbers are questionable at best. 

-Why does the troller have the same +dam as a defender when defenders have vigilance?

-You say fireblast has gaps in its chain and then proceed to cite a 8, 8, 28 sec powers for the troller

-You've listed proc damages, but do you fill the void in these attack chains with brawl? At least it would be contained for the troller...

 

That said, built it. I don't think anyone doubts that a fire/poison troller can do good damage. You'll likely discover the same thing my fire/storm troller discovered. You can't count on imps. 

I actually built my poison/fire def because I could see the potential enough to follow it through, tweak it, rebuild it, and ultimately end up with a character that can tackle just about anything you throw its way. I did it largely to demonstrate that poison is quite capable, which is something my previous plant/poison/stone was unable to demonstrate clearly as plant and /stone can obscure things.

 

Remember to see whose is bigger - your seismic smash, or crimson prototypes energy transfer 🙂

I used the same damage for the sake of simplicity. It's a bit hard to break down the precise values without full builds.

 

The Controller has more recharge due to the inclusion of Cross Punch as well as longer activation times, so their chain is tighter.

Char is a possibility, but it's not as effective as the Controller's single target Hold (much lower inherent damage, slightly longer activation).

Energy Transfer's DPA isn't appreciably different from a basic attack. Seismic Smash is actually an extremely effective attack in its own right.

 

However, the key issue is the question: why use Poison?

 

From the standpoint of -resist debuffing a single target, Poison isn't all that great. It forces you into melee range, but doesn't really hit the values that the stacking debuff fields do. The protective value of the -hit is minimized against single hard targets compared to the +defense you might get from other sets. On the other hand, from the standpoint of -resist debuffing a large spawn, Poison really pays off because you can run the debuff field constantly and the -hit debuff does matter.

[Frosticus]

17 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I used the same damage for the sake of simplicity. It's a bit hard to break down the precise values without full builds.

 

The Controller has more recharge due to the inclusion of Cross Punch as well as longer activation times, so their chain is tighter.

Char is a possibility, but it's not as effective as the Controller's single target Hold (much lower inherent damage, slightly longer activation).

Energy Transfer's DPA isn't appreciably different from a basic attack. Seismic Smash is actually an extremely effective attack in its own right.

 

However, the key issue is the question: why use Poison?

 

From the standpoint of -resist debuffing a single target, Poison isn't all that great. It forces you into melee range, but doesn't really hit the values that the stacking debuff fields do. The protective value of the -hit is minimized against single hard targets compared to the +defense you might get from other sets. On the other hand, from the standpoint of -resist debuffing a large spawn, Poison really pays off because you can run the debuff field constantly and the -hit debuff does matter.

my poison def hits a boss with 65% res debuff in 1.5 seconds. No reliance on procs.

 

Most fights are over before the sets that can stack -res powers are in a position to stack them. 

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

my poison def hits a boss with 65% res debuff in 1.5 seconds. No reliance on procs.

 

Most fights are over before the sets that can stack -res powers are in a position to stack them. 

If the fight is over before stacking -resist debuffs, it's probably not worth tossing Envenom in the first place. Indeed, I specifically made a distinction between the types of quick trash fights you're talking about and more difficult fights where you want significant debuffing.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

If the fight is over before stacking -resist debuffs, it's probably not worth tossing Envenom in the first place. Indeed, I specifically made a distinction between the types of quick trash fights you're talking about and more difficult fights where you want significant debuffing.

of course it is worth it. 1.5 seconds for -40% res is worth it for anything that you cant 1 shot without it.

 

it's about 15+ ,seconds  before storm/cold can recast their rain.

 

that's a big headstart. what kind of fights are you talking about? Solo I can blow thru a +3 boss before a storm would get a second rain down.

 

AVs? storm is actually junky vs AVs. You can make a storm combo that is good, but storm is objectively bad on it's own vs AVs.

 

Cold is great, imo the best AV killer. Way slower than poison for everything else.

 

Traps? nope 

TA? - no but double disruption+ acid is undoubtedly great 

 

Dark? nope

 

what's left?

 

[Hjarki]

Just now, Frosticus said:

of course it is worth it. 1.5 seconds for -40% res is worth it for anything that you cant 1 shot without it.

 

it's about 15+ ,seconds  before storm/cold can recast their rain.

 

that's a big headstart. what kind of fights are you talking about? Solo I can blow thru a +3 boss before a storm would get a second rain down.

 

AVs? storm is actually junky vs AVs. You can make a storm combo that is good, but storm is objectively bad on it's own vs AVs.

 

Cold is great, imo the best AV killer. Way slower than poison for everything else.

 

Traps? nope 

TA? - no but double disruption+ acid is undoubtedly great 

 

Dark? nope

 

what's left?

 

Normally you can two-shot bosses, so that -40% resist is only worthwhile if your secondary attack is significantly smaller than your primary one.

 

Storm is fantastic against AV/GM. Tornado and Lightning Storm are amongst the highest dpa attacks in the game. Every top pylon build using a support set uses Storm Summoning for a reason.

 

Cold tends to be a weaker variant on Storm. While it has -regen and an additional -resist debuff, they require a hit roll and are on relatively long recharges. In any case, they don't counterbalance the damage put out by the Tornado/Lightning Storm.

 

Overall, I think you're fanboying over Poison a bit too much here. The core value in Poison is that Venomous Gas will debuff -resist and -hit without having to waste time activating a power. This permits it to be used in a 'farm spec' very efficiently against large spawns with minimal status resistance.

 

But you can't depend on Venomous Gas for defense against AV/GM (who will resist the -hit component heavily). Nor does Poison as a set provide any of the sort of supplemental bonuses that make slotting easier - +recharge, +resist/defense, etc.

 

That makes Poison fundamentally different than sets like Storm and Time. Storm and Time can be randomly tacked onto anything and do pretty well - and, if you look at the builds people post, you'll see that's precisely what happens. In contrast, Poison really requires a specific type of build - one that is optimized for Venomous Gas - to thrive.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Normally you can two-shot bosses, so that -40% resist is only worthwhile if your secondary attack is significantly smaller than your primary one.

Maybe on -1 settings. My stalker can't even consistently 2 shot +3 bosses. Come on, please stop making things up.

 

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Storm is fantastic against AV/GM. Tornado and Lightning Storm are amongst the highest dpa attacks in the game. Every top pylon build using a support set uses Storm Summoning for a reason.

Pylons aren't AV/gms are they? Storm on its own is actually terrible vs AV's because it causes them to flee across the map. Hurricane is almost useless and they have no other protection. You CAN make a storm that is good, like a said (twice now), but storm on its own is not a good AV/GM set. Have you played it? 

 

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Cold tends to be a weaker variant on Storm. While it has -regen and an additional -resist debuff, they require a hit roll and are on relatively long recharges. In any case, they don't counterbalance the damage put out by the Tornado/Lightning Storm.

You clearly haven't played storm or cold. Cold will rip through a GM way faster than storm and safer too. Storm can kill some AV's faster, if you can plant them in place. But some others not faster. Do you understand why that is? Have you played these sets?

 

Quote

But you can't depend on Venomous Gas for defense against AV/GM (who will resist the -hit component heavily). Nor does Poison as a set provide any of the sort of supplemental bonuses that make slotting easier - +recharge, +resist/defense, etc.

You can never rely on -tohit vs AV/GM. That is not unique to poison. The set also doesn't try to rely on -tohit vs AV/GM's. so That works out pretty well.

No it does't provide any extras. Did someone say it does? do you need it to? 

Slotting on poison is pretty easy because you don't need a lot of slots for it to do what it does pretty well. I personally think that is an advantage, albeit not as on the nose as a set offering token def/res/rech like you are talking about.

 

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Overall, I think you're fanboying over Poison a bit too much here. The core value in Poison is that Venomous Gas will debuff -resist and -hit without having to waste time activating a power. This permits it to be used in a 'farm spec' very efficiently against large spawns with minimal status resistance.

 

That makes Poison fundamentally different than sets like Storm and Time. Storm and Time can be randomly tacked onto anything and do pretty well - and, if you look at the builds people post, you'll see that's precisely what happens. In contrast, Poison really requires a specific type of build - one that is optimized for Venomous Gas - to thrive.

I wrote an entire guide on poison detailing everything you are talking about. 

Venomous gas debuffs resistance, tohit, defense and damage. They are all very important if you understand how poison functions in game as opposed to in mids. 

 

Have you tried farming with poison? I have. My plant/poison/stone is a passable s/l farmer, but not even in the same realm as actual farmers.

 

Storm doesn't need a specific type of build to thrive? you sure about that?

Storm is grossly overrated in terms of performance. Massively high ceiling that is very rarely realized in actual gameplay. But it is one of the most enjoyable sets. The peaks and valleys are something I personally welcome.

 

You are right, time can be paired with anything. No one denies that farsight is a solid crutch that can carry just about any build. Time sure can't debuff a boss as well as poison though, isn't that what you were talking about most recently? Or has the goal post been moved again?

 

You can think I'm fanboying poison if you want. I mean this is a thread linking to a guide I wrote on poison and the virtues of the set. I've also played and excelled with most of the other debuff sets. I think I gave a pretty honest critique of poison in the guide. Do you not feel it is accurate? I welcome feedback as I'm always striving to expand my game knowledge. 

 

If I say something, it is because it is objectively true from both play experience and mathematically. I don't make a lot of definitive comments on things until I've play tested them pretty extensively because mids and knowledge found in the forums only tells a bit of the story. I avoid napkin math like you posted earlier in the thread because as you admitted it is pretty useless in all aspects. 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Frosticus

[Hjarki]

58 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Maybe on -1 settings. My stalker can't even consistently 2 shot +3 bosses. Come on, please stop making things up.

 

Pylons aren't AV/gms are they? Storm on its own is actually terrible vs AV's because it causes them to flee across the map. Hurricane is almost useless and they have no other protection. You CAN make a storm that is good, like a said (twice now), but storm on its own is not a good AV/GM set. Have you played it? 

 

You clearly haven't played storm or cold. Cold will rip through a GM way faster than storm and safer too. Storm can kill some AV's faster, if you can plant them in place. But some others not faster. Do you understand why that is? Have you played these sets?

 

You can never rely on -tohit vs AV/GM. That is not unique to poison. The set also doesn't try to rely on -tohit vs AV/GM's. so That works out pretty well.

No it does't provide any extras. Did someone say it does? do you need it to? 

Slotting on poison is pretty easy because you don't need a lot of slots for it to do what it does pretty well. I personally think that is an advantage, albeit not as on the nose as a set offering token def/res/rech like you are talking about.

 

I wrote an entire guide on poison detailing everything you are talking about. 

Venomous gas debuffs resistance, tohit, defense and damage. They are all very important if you understand how poison functions in game as opposed to in mids. 

 

Have you tried farming with poison? I have. My plant/poison/stone is a passable s/l farmer, but not even in the same realm as actual farmers.

 

Storm doesn't need a specific type of build to thrive? you sure about that?

Storm is grossly overrated in terms of performance. Massively high ceiling that is very rarely realized in actual gameplay. But it is one of the most enjoyable sets. The peaks and valleys are something I personally welcome.

 

You are right, time can be paired with anything. No one denies that farsight is a solid crutch that can carry just about any build. Time sure can't debuff a boss as well as poison though, isn't that what you were talking about most recently? Or has the goal post been moved again?

 

You can think I'm fanboying poison if you want. I mean this is a thread linking to a guide I wrote on poison and the virtues of the set. I've also played and excelled with most of the other debuff sets. I think I gave a pretty honest critique of poison in the guide. Do you not feel it is accurate? I welcome feedback as I'm always striving to expand my game knowledge. 

 

If I say something, it is because it is objectively true from both play experience and mathematically. I don't make a lot of definitive comments on things until I've play tested them pretty extensively because mids and knowledge found in the forums only tells a bit of the story. I avoid napkin math like you posted earlier in the thread because as you admitted it is pretty useless in all aspects. 

 

• Against those AV that flee, you'd normally invest in an Immobilize. That's every Controller except Illusion or Mind and every Defender/Corruptor who deems it desirable.
• Defenders tend to use Hurricane more than Controllers do. With standard slotting (DWD), it's a -8.5% hit debuff after the 85% AV resistances. With the stacking -resist fields it's even more.
• The pylon tests disagree with you on Cold vs. Storm. Against a hard target, Storm will normally debuff -resist an equivalent amount and the -regen component is significantly less important than the Tornado/Lightning Storm damage.
• I have indeed tried farming with Poison - indeed, I posted a Fire/Poison farmer that does so very efficiently against 8x/+4 enemies. Admittedly, you wouldn't farm Carnival or Rularuu with it, but that's not exactly a reasonable criticism.
• I don't believe Storm is 'grossly over-rated' - it's generally considered the most powerful standalone support set for good reasons. However, it doesn't seem like you understand it very well.
• The reason we use the math is so we can identify what is objectively true, rather than just going on 'feels'. Even with relatively simple math we can identify efficiencies that you seem to believe aren't important - but become so once you start piling them on top of one another.

[Frosticus]

9 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

• Against those AV that flee, you'd normally invest in an Immobilize. That's every Controller except Illusion or Mind and every Defender/Corruptor who deems it desirable.
• Defenders tend to use Hurricane more than Controllers do. With standard slotting (DWD), it's a -8.5% hit debuff after the 85% AV resistances. With the stacking -resist fields it's even more.
• The pylon tests disagree with you on Cold vs. Storm. Against a hard target, Storm will normally debuff -resist an equivalent amount and the -regen component is significantly less important than the Tornado/Lightning Storm damage.
• I have indeed tried farming with Poison - indeed, I posted a Fire/Poison farmer that does so very efficiently against 8x/+4 enemies. Admittedly, you wouldn't farm Carnival or Rularuu with it, but that's not exactly a reasonable criticism.
• I don't believe Storm is 'grossly over-rated' - it's generally considered the most powerful standalone support set for good reasons. However, it doesn't seem like you understand it very well.
• The reason we use the math is so we can identify what is objectively true, rather than just going on 'feels'. Even with relatively simple math we can identify efficiencies that you seem to believe aren't important - but become so once you start piling them on top of one another.

- that immobilize means giving up something else for corrs/defs. You ever use an epic immobilize to try to contain a 53/54 AV? How'd that go for you? Did you have to give up a lot of damage to attain that goal?

-vs a lvl 50 AV yes. How bout a lvl 53 or 54? -resists do not affect tohit debuffs. What do you mean?

- Plyons are NOT AV's or GM's. pylons represent exactly nothing in terms of how actual fights go against AV's and GM's found it task forces and such. 

-your fire/poison likely isn't in the same real at farming as a farming build, but like my plant/poison it is probably adequate at it. Otherwise go post it up in the farm fresh builds thread. They will be interested.

-ya I'm pretty unfamiliar with storm I guess... 50 fire/storm troller, 50 storm/son def, 50 demon/storm MM

(4th post down)

Spoiler

 

-You are kidding right?

[Hjarki]

15 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

-You are kidding right?

This is getting rather tedious, since it's apparent you're just interested in arguing in bad faith at this point. You acknowledge with your own build that Storm is preferable to Cold or Poison for this sort of general tack-onto-random-set approach. Everything you're saying is just trying to snipe at the edges of what I'm saying rather than address the central point that Venomous Gas imposes a PBAoE limitation on the set. Do you have anything constructive to add?

[Zherphi]

It's simple, we buff poison and everyone rushes to make a plague doctor hero while we all enjoy the corona epidemic.

[nihilii]

8 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Overall, I think you're fanboying over Poison a bit too much here.

I don't know if Frosticus is fanboying over Poison. But I'm definitely fanboying over Frosticus' writeups on Poison. 😉

Many claims are thrown around on the forums. Very few hold up to pressure if you investigate them. Heck, I just got painted an overemotional villain over in S&I because I asked (perhaps too forcefully (ok, I may have been a raging asshole in the process)) for posters claiming Defenders outdamage Sentinels on average to help me out posting their builds so I could replicate their results.

 

I love defenders, corruptors, controllers, but moved on from them a bit because I find it a struggle to reach >200-250 ST DPS in Pylon times yet alone practical situations. I like ST damage. It's an addiction.

Frosticus claims 400+ DPS on his Poison/Fire in "defensive" mode. From my own limited testing borne out of following his advice these numbers definitely hold up. I made my own build blind and am in the 350 DPS range. Fantastic stuff by my standards. I know I'm not getting the full potential out of Poison too, as Frosticus put his finger on the issue in unrelated posts: newbie Poison players can overuse the debuffs, as we're conditioned to click such powers whenever they recharge. It requires extra discipline to remember the debuff lasts 30s and not go overboard.

So there is a Defender combo that does provably 400+ DPS, and there is an extensive writeup basically leading you every step of the way to the process of getting there. Complete with a build you could copypaste.

 

Very, very few posters support their claims with this level of data. None (that I know of) have posted Defenders, Corruptors or Controllers with similar damage output.

 

Yes, Poison requires to be in melee range with no survivability, and yes, it can be pretty tough. At the same time, what are our options for maximum damage?

- Storm kicks ass in Pylon charts but struggles to convert that DPS to practical uses, as Tornado and LS don't deal focused damage output when [enemy count > 1]

- Time is awesome for building a survivable toon, but ultimately only comes with -22.5%/-30% native res tied to a lengthy animation and long recharge; the latter meaning once you blew your -res on a group and nuked them in 10 seconds, you spend the next 15 seconds on base damage alone

- Rad has to an extent similar flexibility as Poison in applying -res, and can stay at range doing so, but caps out at -22.5%/-30% native

- Cold actually performs decently in that in many practical situations it's basically "Storm + Heat Loss + Benumb". Not bad, but still, no comparable -res debuffing to Poison in a nutshell

There's definitely other benefits to these powersets (and that's a good thing for balance). But when it comes to damage, it just seems like little can match Poison. You hop in melee and enemies passively suffer almost the same resistance debuff other primaries have to work for. You throw 1.5s Envenom and you're ahead of everyone. You add Poison Trap and Fury of the Gladiator starts proccing. It's just insanely good. High risk, high reward.

Edited April 18, 2020 by nihilii

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, nihilii said:

Very, very few posters support their claims with this level of data. None (that I know of) have posted Defenders, Corruptors or Controllers with similar damage output.

 

I've seen over 400 damage from multiple Controllers in the Pylon threads. Usually with /Storm, though /Cold is also high up, and usually Illusion although I recall seeing Fire. And my calculations are that other sets would also do a surprising amount of DPS if slotted properly (Dark is going to be high up, but Earth/Ice/Electric all manage solid damage stats if done right, and Plant is also quite good).

Also, Storm/Sonic should break 400.

A note about Storm: I run Ill/Storm as my primary, and she has had no running issues with over 90% of the AVs I've met. There were a few who were track stars, and I think a lot of AV soloers would recognize the names... Nosferatu at the top, also Romulus and Director 11. But most AVs will stand and fight due to PA's aggro, and other powersets besides Mind will have an Immobilize available. Defenders would need to have an Immobilize to get good use from Storm, though. So, one of the two "bad" pairings for Storm on Controllers... really didn't end up having much running problem.

 

6 hours ago, nihilii said:

- Cold actually performs decently in that in many practical situations it's basically "Storm + Heat Loss + Benumb". Not bad, but still, no comparable -res debuffing to Poison in a nutshell

Poison really is very high -Res, but Cold is surprisingly high -Res also. You put Achilles Heel in Infrigidate, and your "base" -Res is about -48% (Sleet and Achilles Heel)... but you can often stack Sleet about 1.5x without problem (2x at the top end), and Heat Loss also has some -Res, so you're really averaging over -60% Resistance with Cold.

[nihilii]

Thanks for the corrections Coyote, my statement reflected my bias. I don't like pet DPS for the same reasons I don't like Storm DPS, too conditional on having only one enemy in range for my liking. But Poison DPS is also conditional on being able to be in melee 100% of the time (which is difficult to impossible in some circumstances). So I was definitely incorrect here. There are Controllers doing great DPS feats, and it's a question of picking the conditions we're personally willing to work around.

Edited April 18, 2020 by nihilii

[Frosticus]

Trollers have a unique relationship with storm. It is similar, but different to the unique relationship that trollers have with poison.

Namely these sets have some glaring holes that trollers can fairly easily patch up. 

Storm - really benefits from immobs (or taunts) in protracted encounters. Has limited survivability, so controls boost that as well as make hurricane easier to use.

 

My demon/storm ended up having to take taunt for two reasons. 

- to keep excessively dangerous foes away from my pets as storm is only so-so at keeping them standing

- to keep protracted encounters from fleeing

*I tried using web envelop but it is so slow and last such a short time against +lvl enemies. 

 

My storm/son/power causes everything and anything to flee. Many AV fights become slog-fests of chasing them all over the map meaning I have to clear the whole map, or be prepared to be swarmed when the AV runs through the mobs. Options include taunt, or epic immob. Elec fence is ok and the app  is decent enough, but you end up having to spam the heck out of fence (mag 3). Or I can refrain from whipping out LS/nado, but why even play storm at that point?

 

I can tell you my demon/storm puts out incredible damage in some situations. It is the epitome of internal synergy and self force multiplication. Like Nihilii said though, I don't like relying on pets for damage. The numbers it produces vs a pylon do not translate to how it does in the vast majority of encounters. It is still quite good though. Multi target scenarios do a number on dps because I have to switch to bodyguard mode, just as  troller pets spread their damage in multi target situations. This is even a little bit more emphasized for illusion as they experience additional heal-back when they are unable to focus fire. 

 

A good example would be arbiter sands. He frequently summons a pack of drones and if you don't clear the surrounding areas you end up with lots of add ons joining. My poison/fire breezed through the encounter because I can focus fire on him and nuke the adds. Pet generated dps may struggle in a similar scenario. 

 

fire/poison troller has been mentioned a lot of times in this thread. I can tell you what will happen if it goes up against a pylon. The aoe will render the imps useless/dead because you have to stand right by them. But that isn't representative of what the combo will experience in many game scenarios, but certainly gives you something to be aware of. 

 

 

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

Also, Storm/Sonic should break 400.

It should. Elec fence spam is going to hurt its dps in real encounters, but the potential is there.

Storm "should" be the damage king though. It takes full damage from enemies that resist its debuffs. Those enemies also happen to be the most dangerous (AVs). 

 

What people don't realize is that you can stand next to a pylon with just SO's (and knockback protection) on a poison for a long time. 

A storm gets 2 shot.

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

Poison really is very high -Res, but Cold is surprisingly high -Res also. You put Achilles Heel in Infrigidate, and your "base" -Res is about -48% (Sleet and Achilles Heel)... but you can often stack Sleet about 1.5x without problem (2x at the top end), and Heat Loss also has some -Res, so you're really averaging over -60% Resistance with Cold.

 

Cold is the bees-knees. I tend to look passed proc -res because they are less meaningful in teams,, but infrigidate has certainly benefited tremendously from procs.

Cold and poison are probably my two favorite debuff sets. There isn't much that they can't shut down. Storm is my favorite damage set as I don't feel it does all that much "debuffing"

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Frosticus

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

What people don't realize is that you can stand next to a pylon with just SO's (and knockback protection) on a poison for a long time. 

A storm gets 2 shot.

Steamy Mist provides Energy Resistance.

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

What people don't realize is that you can stand next to a pylon with just SO's (and knockback protection) on a poison for a long time. 

A storm gets 2 shot.

 

Well, I don't think players are generally looking to solo AVs with a Storm build WITHOUT filling out the holes at least a bit. Using Illusion or Earth for aggro management, Dark for -ToHit, or Dark Blast/Water Blast for self heals. Maybe Electric (Control or Blast) to leverage the Heal Self proc, etc. And probably build for a high Ranged Def build with solid AoE Def, and use an APP with a resist shield to stack onto the defense. I'm liking Mu in general for /Storm, as it provides a pet that heals and a resist shield, as well as some other solid powers. As a Defender I'd probably use the Electricity APP or whatever its name is, as it has a single-target Immobilize with good duration.

 

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

Poison really is very high -Res, but Cold is surprisingly high -Res also. You put Achilles Heel in Infrigidate, and your "base" -Res is about -48% (Sleet and Achilles Heel)... but you can often stack Sleet about 1.5x without problem (2x at the top end), and Heat Loss also has some -Res, so you're really averaging over -60% Resistance with Cold.

So ... when I combine -30% Resistance from Slowed Response and add another -20% Resistance from an Achilles' Heel proc in Slowed Responsed (90% proc chance) and use Piercing Rounds for another -20% Resistance when using Standard Ammo in my Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender build to achieve a -70% Resistance total from a distance that's not too shabby?  Especially since I can keep that going (and I think the Piercing Rounds -Resistance debuff is allowed to stack with itself)?

 

Near as I can tell, Poison (according to the posted Guide) can do -40% Resistance to the main $Target (and another -20% Resistance "splash" to the AoE) from Envenom, and Venomous Gas adds another -25% Resistance to the PBAoE, for a theoretical maximum of 85% without Achilles' Heel procs (and 105% with Achilles' Heel procs) so long as there's more than one $Target so as to reap the benefits of the "splash" AoE from Envenom in order to "one and half up" on the Resistance debuffing from Envenom.

 

So the tradeoff then becomes (in a single target only scenario, removing the opportunity for "splash" debuffing from Envenom) a difference of -65% Resistance (-85% with Achilles' Heel proc) while needing to stay in what amounts to melee range with Poison ... versus a -50% Resistance (-70% with Achilles' Heel proc) in a Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender build strategy that can do ALL of its Resistance debuffing from a distance.  -65% vs -50% for a difference of melee vs ranged (setting aside the Achilles' Heel procs).

 

So Poison is still "better" in the Resistance debuffing department, but it's possible for other powerset combinations to get close to Poison without needing to resort to being in melee range for the privilege.  To be honest, I would have expected the differential to be higher than that ... although, to be fair, Poison would get an extra -20% Resistance from Envenom "splash" in a 2+ $Targets situation that Time/Dual Pistols/Soul basically won't be able to match, meaning that Poison is clearly superior (by a goodly bit more) in multi-target situations.

 

Interesting to game out the dependencies on context in this way for Poison.

[Coyote]

Well, I think we should compare single powersets unless there is some specific reason why Poison couldn't stack Piercing Rounds with its own debuffs. So leaving aside the Achilles Heel procs, a Poison/DP would be doing -85% Resistance. Yes, it does require melee range, but at 85% the melee risk looks a lot more palatable than at 65%.
Also, honestly, in a multi-target situation I'm not sure that I would consider Poison as the better -Resist debuffer, because that splash radius is a lot smaller than Slowed Response.