Copyrighted Generics Issues

[Jaegernault]

Good day,

Recently Copyright Generic has become a flare up on the game again, and to be fair if you copy a superheroes name or a close variant, you deserve to become GenericHero3987.

The issue here is that everything in our world is copyright if you want to get picky. City Of Heroes is a Super Hero MMO, you make heroes and play them. You pick a power set, a Name and a costume. Now the name I totally understand with copyright, you need to be creative, but you also need to respect the English language and the limitations of words available, but that leaves a lot of scope.

The power set is a bit of an issue, they made the power sets, but whats to stop someone claiming a Super Strength/Invulnerability Brute is a copyright of the Hulk. Same powers, if they also made a bare Huge body and made it green, that is 2 strikes of copyright, with 0 effort and no name involved.

Bringing on the final point, costumes. The game boasts one of the largest and most intricate and ever evolving costume creators available to any online game. Its intended to allow you to be imaginative. Unfortunately, if you assume copyright to every comic, movie, and designer out there, that huge costume choice becomes rather sparse.

Comic books have been around longer then most of us have been alive. They have had a long time to try out every costume over the years in revamps, so if you archive every single look of every single hero who ever was, what are we left with?

NCSoft had a copyright issue in that was resolved in 2005, the servers went down in 2012, the 2 are unrelated as it doesn't take 7 years to kill a server.

If I saw for example a hero in Atlas looking like Iron man I wouldn't be like... "Copyright!" id more likely be "I fancy watching the entire series of IronMan!" does that leave you available to advertising and possible royalties? of course not. You didn't make the film, you don't know the creators, but your advertising it for free and getting no benefit other then enjoyment. A fair deal id say.

In conclusion, I feel that the Generic situation needs to have strict guidelines before broad stroke wipes. There also needs to be a detail of whats wrong as if so many costume combo's are off limits, maybe they should be removed.

I propose that if a Violation is found, the offending party is contacted via their contact email that they HAVE to have given to access the server. This report details the issues with the character and gives them 48 hours to correct it from the next time the account logs in. This would also allow appeals as currently there is no oversight that we can see as to what constitutes it.

I am fortunate enough to have not been hit with a generic since back in 2006, but I know a lot of people put hours into characters and have no idea they are breaking the rules in some cases, there are of course some exceptions where people push their luck but a line needs to be drawn.

[altaholic]

I agree with this post. Where is the criteria for what is and isn't deserving to be generic? If a character has a name that bears no resemblance to the character created, should both name and costumes be given generic treatment? Furthermore, under the current criteria, should not all the costume pieces and colors be wiped from the creator as they  can be used for said violable creations. It just seems to me there is no proper oversight mainly opinion on what is and what isn't a violation. There are no original costumes. Everyone is using a costume that has been already done before.

[krj12]

Unfortunately, it probably boils down to who you encounter in-game.  There is a small percentage of the population which greatly enjoys registering complaints on other players,

and if you run into one of them with a character that even remotely resembles an existing comic character, you're probably toast.  I have few tribute heroes, as well as patriotic themed heroes

that could be considered "Captain America'ish" -  and I've had one genericed so far.

 

I've never understood fully why this is the ONLY mmo that has this issue - every other mmo I've played has copyrighted characters out the wazoo, and the issue has

never been brought up.  Copyright is being grossly abused the last few decades, and is going well past the point of just protecting people from losing profit on their creations.

Creating a character in an MMO hurts no one's profit.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by krj12

[Grouchybeast]

You really need to take this up with the people who wrote copyright and trademark legislation around the world, rather than the HC mods.

 

It's always going to be impossible to create a hard and fast set of rules that will cover all cases, and trying to do so will just lead to people endless rules-lawyering about how their costume and/or name didn't quite break the rules.  The GMs need to be able to use their best judgement.  If there's to be any chance of HC becoming legit in the future, then this isn't optional.

[Jaegernault]

But copyright is filed from the one affected by it. Best judgment is not enough for a game based on creativity. If certain combinations are considered breach, they should be made mutually exclusive to prevent future occurrences. Copyright isnt an instant fine, your warned to remove it. You cant preemptively remove content because it "might" be flagged in the future, thats like getting a cut on your leg and amputating it as it "might" become infected and develop into something serious.

 

Copyright is dealt with an point of issue, and moderated by using guidelines to prevent the majority of offences. the Copyright guidelines on homecoming are a joke. They are so vague you can class anything as removable. I logged into Reunion and loaded up a lost of players, 50 came up obviously, I found 4 that had names easily recognized as movie clones. I didnt see any costumes but under guidelines those 4 should have been genericed. thats 8% breaking name copyright. Imagine the number if I took costumes into account.

 

Im clearly not reporting them as I see nothing wrong with the variations, but under homecomming copyright guides they are all removable. Its just silly abuse of power and people trying to bark off authority and make homecoming jump through hoops. If you join an MMO just to spew copyright at players it should be a ban-able offence as malicious play-style. Homecoming needs to say "no, thats fine" to some of these else why did they rebuild the game. Or at the very least file reports to back it up, even better if they record who reported them to see if there are patterns.

[Greycat]

Regardless of how you feel (and you're making some pretty weak arguments - there's a difference between "I made a super strength/inv tank" and "I made a Superman clone named S.U.P.E.R.M.A.N and it got genericed," and I'm pretty sure you know it,) there are two big facts you're choosing to ignore:

 

1. Early in the game, Cryptic (at the time) was already embroiled in a copyright suit filed by Marvel. Yes, Marvel pulled some shenanigans, but it's in the game's history - which is why they were generic'd on live,  and

2. *The devs are trying to negotiate with NCSoft to go legit.* People making copyrighted characters can cause issues with that. So yes, they have to act on copyright-infringing characters.

 

If the choice is between "I want to be Iron Man" and "The game is now legal," I'm *not* choosing you. And I don't think the devs or GMs would, either. I'd much rather have donations go to keeping the server running than having to get even more to fight another lawsuit.

 

I have had *hundreds* of characters on live (approaching a hundred here, actually.) Many of them probably had powerset combinations that matched comic characters - I don't know, I'm not a comic encyclopedia and there are hundreds of thousands of comic characters out there. Know how many of mine I've had a hard time trying to keep from being generic'd? Zero. It's fine to have ideas inspired by characters or franchises you like. But there's a big difference between "Female archaeologist and adventurer" and "I'm Lara Croft, down to name, backstory and look!"

 

Be more creative. Be unique. Don't put the efforts to bring this game legally back to life at risk for everyone.

 

And altaholic - "Everyone is using a costume that has been already done before." Really? In all the time I played live, from issue 3 to shutdown and now here, playing (there) on all servers, I ran across a similar costume to one of mine... once. I don't think I've ever had someone confuse one of my characters with a copyrighted one. So, no, "Everyone is using a costume that has been already done before" is not true in the least. The large number of costume parts make it *easier* not to look like someone else (part of the reason people play is to *make their own* look and character, after all,) not harder.

 

(Edit: I should say twice, but that was a deliberate choice with myself and another player, and that costume didn't look like anyone else *or* any copyrighted character.)

Edited April 22, 2020 by Greycat

[ZacKing]

20 minutes ago, Greycat said:

*The devs are trying to negotiate with NCSoft to go legit.* People making copyrighted characters can cause issues with that. So yes, they have to act on copyright-infringing characters.

I don't buy this.  Google any popular game out there and you'll find a literal shit ton of "copyrighted/trademarked" skins out there freely available.  some of them have been around for decades.  YouTube is polluted with videos of people playing games using custom skins.  Where's the cease and desists from Disney?  Nowhere.  They go after people trying to profit off selling stuff. 

 

22 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Be more creative. Be unique. Don't put the efforts to bring this game legally back to life at risk for everyone.

And who exactly are you to define what is or isn't "creative"?  Go to a comic con sometime and take a look and the amount of time, effort, money and blood sweat tears that some of the people put into making cosplay costumes of their favorite characters.  They're doing it because they love these characters, not to rip someone off.  Marvel, Disney and WB aren't at the door handing anyone C&D orders and telling them to get changed.  How is that any different? 

 

This rule was put in place here to appease the few who lost their shit over other people making homages for "not being creative enough".  however, it's their servers so it's up to them what to do, so we have to live with their decision since we don't have the skin in the game they do.  chances are greater they do something to piss off NCSoft and that gets the game shut down than someone making a Superman homage.

[Ruin Mage]

The solution is simple:

Get some creativity and make something unique (or as unique as you can)
You can do a homage without being a clear rip off.
Use them as inspiration not as your entire basis for a character/costume.

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:

Get some creativity and make something unique (or as unique as you can)
You can do a homage without being a clear rip off.

Who gets to define what is "creative" enough?

[Ruin Mage]

The admins of Homecoming.

If you're getting the upsets at not being able to 1:1 recreate your favorite character from another medium, you really need to re-evaluate why you play this game - simple as that.

It is a lack of creativity to copy-paste Superman/Batman/etc into City of Heroes just because "muh favorite character."

Edited April 22, 2020 by Shadeknight

[AerialAssault]

I want to be honest OP, I don't know what your suggestion is.

 

Do you want Homecoming to have a comprehensive list of everything that is or is not allowed? That would take forever to compile, and people still would not read it. Unless, of course, you're volunteering to write this list up.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

I don't buy this.  Google any popular game out there and you'll find a literal shit ton of "copyrighted/trademarked" skins out there freely available.  some of them have been around for decades.  YouTube is polluted with videos of people playing games using custom skins.  Where's the cease and desists from Disney?  Nowhere.  They go after people trying to profit off selling stuff. 

 

And who exactly are you to define what is or isn't "creative"?  Go to a comic con sometime and take a look and the amount of time, effort, money and blood sweat tears that some of the people put into making cosplay costumes of their favorite characters.  They're doing it because they love these characters, not to rip someone off.  Marvel, Disney and WB aren't at the door handing anyone C&D orders and telling them to get changed.  How is that any different? 

 

This rule was put in place here to appease the few who lost their shit over other people making homages for "not being creative enough".  however, it's their servers so it's up to them what to do, so we have to live with their decision since we don't have the skin in the game they do.  chances are greater they do something to piss off NCSoft and that gets the game shut down than someone making a Superman homage.

That's that game's choice.

 

And no kidding, comic con has people doing cosplays. Which the comic industry, *part of the con,* is fine with. You'll notice that comic con is not a legally-grey server trying to become legitimate. You're comparing apples and ... not even oranges. Apples and truck tires. You're trying to argue that Blizzard would have a problem with BLizzard cosplayers at Blizzcon. No, really? They like fans at their own event?

 

*None of these are servers of a game that was already looked at for copyright infringement which is trying to go legit again, and which does not have the rights (that second half of "copyright") to other peoples' characters.*

 

Just now, ZacKing said:

Who gets to define what is "creative" enough?

... don't look like a copyrighted character, with a similar name and powers? How is this hard? There are hundreds of "power suit" wielding / wearing characters blasting energy, for instance, between live days and here. Somehow they managed to not all be Iron Man. The ones that went red and gold on with costume pieces that were very similar to the comic character, with some variant of "Iron man" in the name? Probably ended up as GenericHero####.

 

 

[altaholic]

I guess I was a bit too broad in my statement about "original costumes" already being done. Let me put it this way then, you cannot make an original costume because there is no way to create one. you are limited by what is there, so you aren't being original. Chances are you are using what others have already used.

[Greycat]

Just now, AerialAssault said:

I want to be honest OP, I don't know what your suggestion is.

 

Do you want Homecoming to have a comprehensive list of everything that is or is not allowed? That would take forever to compile, and people still would not read it. Unless, of course, you're volunteering to write this list up.

Oh, they'd read it, then try to rules-lawyer their way to finding some 0.01% to say "See, I shouldn't have been generic'd!" Which is generally, on top of the work to compile it in the first place, why these aren't listed.

[Jaegernault]

There are very few occasions where someone is daft enough to try and replicate a heroes name, costume and power set, despite it being easily doable. Our imagination is inspired by what we see, we take fragemnts of images we like and reconstruct them to make our own unique identity. Your mising my point about the line for genericing a character.

 

Are they reset based on just a name that comes up somewhere, on a particular look that appeared somewhere that the creator may not even be aware of, or a combination of the two.

 

If for example you make a empathy defender in a huge green musculature body and called it Gamma Hugs, is that copyright because its in a huge green body with the name of a radioactive particle like the Hulk, despite its power and role being totally contrary to the hulks back story.

---

Copyright applies to a recorded work, it cannot apply to something as intangible as an idea.

---

Copyright laws are actually very restrictive, and do not apply to items such as names and titles that may be duplicated coincidentally, or that may be legitimately used in unrelated instances.

---

 

ABove taken from the copyright services website, 10 common mistakes made about copyright.

Even official copyright laws are so vague, probably why why are argued so much. Im not saying it should be given a free pass, but if you dont tell someone what they did wrong it wont change. Its not like we are inventing new technology and profiting off it, we are taking the best memories we have of our entire experience with comics ans superheroes and adapting them for recreation, unless of course youve got paypal set up so people who team with you and admire your character need to pay lol

[Ruin Mage]

To note - Live had this very same rule set.
You could get reported and generic'd for the same thing you get generic'd here for.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

It is a lack of creativity to copy-paste Superman/Batman/etc into City of Heroes just because "muh favorite character."

So when you were a little kid, you played as generic superhero guy?  Or did you pretend to be Superman?  When kids and adults collect comics, are they collecting generic hero no 2 or Batman?  People putting a shit ton of effort into making costumes for comic cons are not creative enough? 

 

As I said I get it this is their servers and they'll make whatever rules they want.  No issue with it.  Just don't go around telling people what isn't "creative enough". 

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And no kidding, comic con has people doing cosplays. Which the comic industry, *part of the con,* is fine with. You'll notice that comic con is not a legally-grey server trying to become legitimate. You're comparing apples and ... not even oranges. Apples and truck tires. You're trying to argue that Blizzard would have a problem with BLizzard cosplayers at Blizzcon. No, really? They like fans at their own event?

Virtual world is no different. 

[Greycat]

Just now, altaholic said:

I guess I was a bit too broad in my statement about "original costumes" already being done. Let me put it this way then, you cannot make an original costume because there is no way to create one. you are limited by what is there, so you aren't being original. Chances are you are using what others have already used.

Right. And artists aren't being original because they use the same paints that other people use (other than vantablack.)

 

Musicians all use the same instruments other musicians use, 99.9% of the time. They all use vibrations in the air to produce the same tones that have already existed. No music is original.

 

Are you *sure* you want that to be your argument? Because there's a huge difference between "You're using the same parts and so can't be original, so copyright infringement is fine" and "You don't need to copy others." One is a huge leap in "logic," the other is common sense.

[Ruin Mage]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

So when you were a little kid, you played as generic superhero guy?  Or did you pretend to be Superman?  When kids and adults collect comics, are they collecting generic hero no 2 or Batman?  People putting a shit ton of effort into making costumes for comic cons are not creative enough? 

 

As I said I get it this is their servers and they'll make whatever rules they want.  No issue with it.  Just don't go around telling people what isn't "creative enough". 

There's a difference between comic cons in real life...
...and a video game.

I mean, this isn't rocket science. You don't want to end up generic'd? Put some thought into your costume & character.
Easy. If roleplayers on Everlasting can do it so can you.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

Virtual world is no different. 

Server of a game that already went through a copyright lawsuit and is trying to become legit again is *very* different.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Greycat
Typo.

[AerialAssault]

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

So when you were a little kid, you played as generic superhero guy?  Or did you pretend to be Superman?  When kids and adults collect comics, are they collecting generic hero no 2 or Batman?  People putting a shit ton of effort into making costumes for comic cons are not creative enough? 

 

As I said I get it this is their servers and they'll make whatever rules they want.  No issue with it.  Just don't go around telling people what isn't "creative enough". 

Spending weeks, even months physically assembling a costume, perhaps even working out so that you can cosplay as your favourite character 

 

=/=

 

Spending 15 minutes in the character creator making "Batguy", the Natural MA/SR Scrapper

[altaholic]

Actually you made my argument for me. It takes time to make a good likeness just as much as your "originals", sometimes longer. The "art" is in the creation right? so where were we in this?

 

[Greycat]

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

So when you were a little kid, you played as generic superhero guy?  Or did you pretend to be Superman?  When kids and adults collect comics, are they collecting generic hero no 2 or Batman?  People putting a shit ton of effort into making costumes for comic cons are not creative enough? 

 

As I said I get it this is their servers and they'll make whatever rules they want.  No issue with it.  Just don't go around telling people what isn't "creative enough". 

Kids are not games trying to become legiitmate that already have a history of being looked at and sued by the comic industry.

Adults are ... buying the comics from the copyright holder. You're *really* stretching for arguments. You should probably stop while you're behind and think about what you're really arguing for.

 

Again. If my choice is the server having a better chance at becoming legit, but people playing blatant ripoff characters getting generic'd, and the negotiations being shut down or the server having to deal with a copyright lawsuit so you can play "yron.man?" Better get to love that black and white barcode, because I will support that generic every. single. time.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, altaholic said:

Actually you made my argument for me. It takes time to make a good likeness just as much as your "originals", sometimes longer. The "art" is in the creation right? so where were we in this?

 

Someone else owns the legal rights to the character you're copying and the homecoming team does not.