Best damaging combo for MMs

[Kommon]

5 hours ago, Maxzero said:

 

 

Pets

Power Boost + Shields means pets are Softcapped to all positionals plus S/L/E/NE

~80%+ S/L resistance

Capped Fire and Cold resistance

~70% Energy/Toxic resistance

~55% resistance to everything else

 

Combined with a 50% damage debuff on hard targets means my pets are super tanking and crazy tier resistance stacking (-200%+).

 

Good party buffs too (End recovery +40% to all Pos Def and -res/def debuffs) and thematically consistant.

Keep in mind, any power that is coded to not accept strength enhancement from external buffs, like most if not every power with an enhanceable resistance component, cannot be power boosted.  This includes /Cold shields.

 

Speaking as someone who has an IO'ed out Demons/Cold, you are right on the money with everything else.  I can totally see my Demon/Cold doing something similar from that video if I wanted to, although I don't have burnout.  My build kills AVs so fast already that burnout will be more of a gimmick than anything.  I may drop one of my 'whatever' powers like Frostwork or Weaken Resolve and pick it up, if I ever do another respec.

[Tiklandian]

15 hours ago, Force Redux said:

To OP:

Go Thugs/Time for max dps and survival. Mine is 50+3 fully incarnated and it's easily the most powerful MM I have. I run at +4/x8 on Brigg's S/L farm without breaking a sweat. 

 

If you want big game hunting (AVs or GMs) go Bots with either Time or Traps because Big Bot's - Regen is worth about 60-75 dps all by itself.

 

These are all part of the meta. 

 

You didn't mention demons or dark, but they are also meta.

 

Just my quick 2 cents. MMs have been my main AT since CoV launched.

 

Best thing to do is try them for yourself. You can always go to test server 🙂

Just a quick question because you make it seem like MM is great. I wanted to try MM but I've heard people say it sucks at the highest difficulty due to pet levels not scaling. Those people said say that they aren't good in groups of the same content. Mostly because Pets die in Incarnate TFs.

 

So are they wrong?

Edited May 16, 2020 by Tiklandian

[Force Redux]

@Tiklandian

Those are good questions. They are both right and wrong. What do I mean by that? I mean, everyone enjoys different things, and has a different tolerance for the peculiarities of various ATs and power sets.

 

For example, I know that Titan Weapons/Bio Armor brutes are supposedly broken/OP. Yet, I cannot for the life of me get one past level 40. I just can't. The pace and rhythm is just off for me.

 

Same for Masterminds. Either you enjoy the playstyle or not. For me, MMs play a lot like my favorite class from Dark Age of Camelot, the SpiritMaster, who commanded a bunch of skeletal pets. You command and support, while directing. I enjoy that. Just because I do, doesn't mean you will (or won't). 

 

Let's cover your questions.

 

Pets suck at higher levels due to pet scaling:

This is true for a period of time, but not end game. Especially as you level up. But once you get your incarnate +1 Alpha Incarnate level shift, this helps offset quite a bit. As well, in Incarnate Trials, pets are the same level as your hero (so, 51 to 53).  So, what this means? You will mostly notice pets lagging a bit (especially the T3) if you do level 54 radio teams or whatever where you are noticeably deep into mobs. At level 50+3 any of my MMs (Bots/FF, Thugs/Time, Necro/Dark, Beast/Time, Demons/Dark) are all quite capable. I was regularly farm on my Thugs/Time and Bots/FF (depends on how lazy or sleepy I am for which one I farm on) on +4/x8 on a Smashling/Lethal indoor map. I just pulled 3 purple recipes and several million Info for 45 mins work.

 

TLDR: I don't have any issues with the pet scaling once I'm kitted out. 

 

Pets aren't good in (high level) groups:

Not true. Unless you are underleveled (level 26 in a 54 PI radio or MSR). There is a bit of a 'dip' when you get your T1 pet and before you get your Alpha slot level shift, but that's  about it. It fixes itself. All my MMs are able to run solo through Dark Astoria with no issues. It can be a bit rougher than usual pre-Alpha slot, but that's true of many ATs. I routinely take my MMs into all content and enjoy doing so. I don't typically resummon pets on most runs unless something unusual happens or we're getting barraged (such as in the Underground Trial) - see below.

 

TLDR: Pets are awesome in groups. MMs even without pets have something to offer a team with their support powers, too. 

 

Pets die in Incarnate Trials:

They can. The worst is Lambda, where running around on the indoor map can sometimes send pets into spaz-land. But on the BAF, I find I manage quite well with my pets, because the map isn't that challenging. As always, the map dictates how well your pets manage. That layer-cake room in the cave maps? Even at low level it sucks. Running some maps, you have to expect to lose some pets, such as through the sewers on a TinPex. Its part of the warts of having minions. But the good news is, just resummon. Blue patches of death on the Battle Maiden fight? Once you get used to jousting with pets (using Go To and Follow), you can avoid pet death. I used my Beasts/Time MM against her with no pet deaths. 

 

TLDR: Pets can die on certain maps. Getting used to the map helps prevent that. Its not that bad. I run regular iTrials on my MMs. 

 

My recommendation? Roll up a mastermind. They are viable at all levels of play, low level, high level, incarnates, solo, teams, leagues. The biggest factor is not the pets, or the numbers or the scaling, its if you enjoy the play style. If you do, then you'll be persistent through the warts and bumps.

 

Also: The recent patch gave two HUGE quality of life bumps to the Mastermind: pets no longer have collision, so teammates won't get stuck behind them; and pet AI is vastly improved so that they do what you tell them to and use their powers better at range or melee. This, all my itself, has doubled my pleasure, double my fun with MMs.  Hope that helps. 😀

 

TLDR: Yes, they are wrong. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Force Redux

[Force Redux]

In case it wasn't clear, Masterminds are my favorite class across all MMOs from 1999 to today. I love the ability to do damage, provide team support, have a pet to help do silly pet things (such as pulling, or pet emotes/dancing), and the RP potential.

 

But I'm a pet class person. I've also enjoyed Necromancers (EQ, EQ2); Cabalists, Spiritmasters (Dark Age of Camelot), among others. Not everyone likes pet classes. 

[Tiklandian]

1 hour ago, Force Redux said:

In case it wasn't clear, Masterminds are my favorite class across all MMOs from 1999 to today. I love the ability to do damage, provide team support, have a pet to help do silly pet things (such as pulling, or pet emotes/dancing), and the RP potential.

 

But I'm a pet class person. I've also enjoyed Necromancers (EQ, EQ2); Cabalists, Spiritmasters (Dark Age of Camelot), among others. Not everyone likes pet classes. 

Thanks for all the great info!

 

I'm deciding between Thugs/Time and Demon/Time (or Demons/Dark, but I hear Dark has slow animations).  

 

I can make a cool character for both thematically, but want to focus on one as I'm new.  Which of those two are the better performance wise in the most difficult stuff? 

 

Or even Bots/Anything if its any substantially better than the above.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Tiklandian

[Force Redux]

Very welcome!

 

Dark animations are just fine. Dark has an awesome toolkit. While Time offer some safety with some Defense buffing, with Dark you will need to be a bit more active to debuff things for safety. Dark also offers another pet, Dark Servant, who also helps heal, adds a bit of damage, and most importantly, also debuffs huge amounts of -ToHit. In the.  end, they are both equal in power, but go about things differently. I recommend trying each as a secondary, they are both the top two support performers for MMs. I love them both, so I have them on multiple characters. 

 

Demons and Thugs are also both top sets. They both have a power which adds damage with also can mule the IO defensive procs (all six of them) without taking slots from the pets themselves (Robots, also a great set, falls behind just a tad because it cannot do this). Demons and Thugs also spread their damage around between their T2 and T3 pets, whereas Robots have damage mostly concentrated in the T1 Assault Bot. This is noticable while leveling, but not terrible. Just something to note.

 

Personally, both for power and also for looks and theme, I have and adore:

 

Luna Love: Thugs/Time - my former Verandi mob princess turned music icon with her army of gang members who wanted to 'get out' of the Family.

Demonomics: Demons/Dark - what happens when you mix an accountant with a Mu bloodline.

 

Have fun, try out a few sets, and let us know how it goes 🙂

Edited May 17, 2020 by Force Redux

[War_L0ck]

2 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Same for Masterminds. Either you enjoy the playstyle or not. For me, MMs play a lot like my favorite class from Dark Age of Camelot, the SpiritMaster, who commanded a bunch of skeletal pets. You command and support, while directing. I enjoy that. Just because I do, doesn't mean you will (or won't). 

You're thinking of Bonedancer, amigo (SM just has one spirit pet) :). DAOC was good times.

 

I rolled up a Demons/Cold, because I feel like /Cold would be overkill for Thugs. With Demons, I can get really close to Def Cap and still have solid resists, too.

 

Question -- What attacks should I use for myself? I'm still only 27, and I'm mostly using P2W wand and the Demons AOE occasionally.

Edited May 17, 2020 by War_L0ck

[Coyote]

3 minutes ago, War_L0ck said:

Question -- What attacks should I use for myself? I'm still only 27, and I'm mostly using P2W wand and the Demons AOE occasionally.

 

The Demons have the best MM attacks, and I take and slot all 3. The AoE lash is the most important since it's AoE... and takes Force Feedback IO with an excellent chance to proc. Then comes the melee lash, for the same reason: good damage if you use procs, and the Force Feedback proc. Corruption is nice, but can be skipped if the build is tight. It's damage is okay but it won't get better than okay, but it does help stack -Resist on a target (you can double-stack Corruption and single-stack the whip for about 27% -Resist).

 

Endurance will be a problem, as with all MMs who are attacking heavily, but Cold is not an active defensive set so it can support it pretty well, and when you get Heat Loss the endurance issues disappear. It's one of the best secondaries to support a Demons MM who wants to use personal attacks a lot.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Coyote

[Force Redux]

Bone Dancer, yes!! It's been a while.. Since just after Shrouded Isles expansion...

[Maxzero]

On 5/17/2020 at 4:13 AM, Kommon said:

Keep in mind, any power that is coded to not accept strength enhancement from external buffs, like most if not every power with an enhanceable resistance component, cannot be power boosted.  This includes /Cold shields.

 

Speaking as someone who has an IO'ed out Demons/Cold, you are right on the money with everything else.  I can totally see my Demon/Cold doing something similar from that video if I wanted to, although I don't have burnout.  My build kills AVs so fast already that burnout will be more of a gimmick than anything.  I may drop one of my 'whatever' powers like Frostwork or Weaken Resolve and pick it up, if I ever do another respec.

 

Wow how unfortunate.

 

Luckily even if you can't Powerboost /Cold Shields the Demons still have 43.4% minimum positional defence (depending on how long Barrier has been up for) so they are still pretty safe.

 

Just free's up Powerboost for something else.

 

Okay old habit's die hard. Always like having some decent attacks on the MM (otherwise you have nothing to do) and it would be a shame to leave the Heat Loss end regen to waste. So:

 

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You rotate the two AoEs with pretty good chances to proc FF +recharge. The extra recharge from the procs should be more then enough to make Benumb and Heat Loss perma. Throw in damage procs in AoEs because why not? Having a AoE (even with a small range) that has -res innate, -res proc, 2 x damage proc and a +recharge is pretty solid.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Maxzero

[Dixa]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:05 PM, Force Redux said:

To OP:

Go Thugs/Time for max dps and survival. Mine is 50+3 fully incarnated and it's easily the most powerful MM I have. I run at +4/x8 on Brigg's S/L farm without breaking a sweat. 

 

If you want big game hunting (AVs or GMs) go Bots with either Time or Traps because Big Bot's - Regen is worth about 60-75 dps all by itself.

 

These are all part of the meta. 

 

You didn't mention demons or dark, but they are also meta.

 

Just my quick 2 cents. MMs have been my main AT since CoV launched.

 

Best thing to do is try them for yourself. You can always go to test server 🙂

with Degen incarnate, you no longer need to suffer with inferior single target damage by taking bots. 

 

plus, daggers. 

[War_L0ck]

47 minutes ago, Dixa said:

with Degen incarnate, you no longer need to suffer with inferior single target damage by taking bots. 

 

plus, daggers. 

If allowing incarnates and p2w for -regen is OK, why are lore pets not OK in comparisons?

[Dixa]

2 hours ago, War_L0ck said:

If allowing incarnates and p2w for -regen is OK, why are lore pets not OK in comparisons?

because with lore pets you are mostly a spectator. 

[War_L0ck]

7 hours ago, Dixa said:

because with lore pets you are mostly a spectator. 

Kind of a funny comment given we're talking about MMs. To me it's inconsistent to say lore pets are a cheat and this is not. 

 

Anyway, not everyone wants to be pigeon-holed into Thugs/Storm and Demons/Storm. As @Coyote pointed out, lore pets are going to benefit from non-Storm secondaries, so I would just remind folks that if you want to play a support type heal/debuff secondary AND/OR a non Thugs/Demon primary, they can and not feel gimped.

[Frosticus]

I dunno, if you are talking builds that use burnout, then you may as well include lore pets in ones damage calculations.

 

When I built my demon/storm I didn't do it including any temporary or low uptime powers. Everything in a dps build that I make is not situational and can be used in nearly every encounter.

 

you'll be hard pressed to out dps a demon/storm for single target. Whether you can realize that damage in enough situations is debatable as it is a "house of cards" type of build. The synergy is purely oriented around stacking -res to incredible levels. Surpassing just about everything in the game in that area (aside from demon/cold) while also having the raw damage to make use of that ludicrous -res (pets and storm powers). The dps drops dramatically if any of your hellfire (debuffer) pets drop, or you get overwhelmed to the point that you can't contribute with your own -res attacks.

 

But dramatically reducing dps doesn't mean the end of the world when you do so much to begin with. My petless demon/storm pulls over 300 dps vs a pylon sans gimmicks. 

 

If the question is raw damage output? demon/storm

if you want to tack on other qualifiers like ease of use, or survivability, the answer will probably change quickly. 

[Maxzero]

58 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I dunno, if you are talking builds that use burnout, then you may as well include lore pets in ones damage calculations.

 

When I built my demon/storm I didn't do it including any temporary or low uptime powers. Everything in a dps build that I make is not situational and can be used in nearly every encounter.

 

you'll be hard pressed to out dps a demon/storm for single target. Whether you can realize that damage in enough situations is debatable as it is a "house of cards" type of build. The synergy is purely oriented around stacking -res to incredible levels. Surpassing just about everything in the game in that area (aside from demon/cold) while also having the raw damage to make use of that ludicrous -res (pets and storm powers). The dps drops dramatically if any of your hellfire (debuffer) pets drop, or you get overwhelmed to the point that you can't contribute with your own -res attacks.

 

But dramatically reducing dps doesn't mean the end of the world when you do so much to begin with. My petless demon/storm pulls over 300 dps vs a pylon sans gimmicks. 

 

If the question is raw damage output? demon/storm

if you want to tack on other qualifiers like ease of use, or survivability, the answer will probably change quickly. 

 

Indeed. 

 

Hence why my Demon/Cold MM is running around with 75% resist to S/L/C/F with 66% res against Toxic while also being S/L/E def softcapped.

 

The Demons themslves have 80% S/L, 90% F/C, ~70% E/T res with decent res against the rest while having 43%+ def against positionals.

 

Thats with Burnout and 2 spammable proc filled AoEs.

 

Honestly it makes my Thugs/Storm look like a total joke. I love it.

 

[Dixa]

On 5/19/2020 at 2:16 PM, Maxzero said:

 

Indeed. 

 

Hence why my Demon/Cold MM is running around with 75% resist to S/L/C/F with 66% res against Toxic while also being S/L/E def softcapped.

 

The Demons themslves have 80% S/L, 90% F/C, ~70% E/T res with decent res against the rest while having 43%+ def against positionals.

 

Thats with Burnout and 2 spammable proc filled AoEs.

 

Honestly it makes my Thugs/Storm look like a total joke. I love it.

 

you should share this build. I know I personally poo-poo'd cold due to no personal cc protection, but since you can just straight buy that sh..tuff on the p2w vendor I would love to see what a well built cold looks like. 

[Maxzero]

6 hours ago, Dixa said:

you should share this build. I know I personally poo-poo'd cold due to no personal cc protection, but since you can just straight buy that sh..tuff on the p2w vendor I would love to see what a well built cold looks like. 

 

My Mids was actually bugged at the time I made that comment unfortunately (which when I made the build) it was only 64% S/L resist plus other resists are a little lower

 

I have linked it earlier and in the Demon/Storm discussion thread.

 

Although I had a bit of a idea last night that's been bubbling around a while which loses a bit of res and switches around the defences for something new.

 

So keep on mind that the builds you see might already be out of date.

 

*edit*

 

Yeah while its a good build its only my Mk2 now.

 

I have the Mk3 build ready but needs the new IO sets to be released on live. Should hopefully be in the next few patches. OMG! I didn't check they are out just not on Mids so I assumed they were not out yet.

 

Okay creating Mark 3.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Maxzero