Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, Blastit said:

You're not a developer, so obviously not. I've even specifically said that players are not at fault. If I am unhappy with anything here it's less the game and more this attitude. I want an honest assessment of the state of the game and what can actually be done in the future. I'm not asking rhetorical questions here, they're all genuine. All you've got is lazy dismissal.

Same as the OP, you are essentially doing the same by dismissing opinions that differ from yours.  Being unhappy swings both ways.  The opinions of those who feel that the game is fine as is or there are other priorities are just as valid. 

[DSorrow]

On 4/9/2020 at 10:00 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

SEVENTY PERCENT universal reduction in recharge time for every single power

I might just be pedantic about the wording, but this is not at all what Hasten actually does. It gives you an additive seventy percent increase to your recharge rate, which is a completely different thing and far less powerful.

 

As for the argument itself, I do agree that Hasten is extremely powerful in its current state and probably far too powerful for a pool power, but I don't think it would be a good call to nerf it for two reasons. One, it's available to all builds so it doesn't create a power gap between specific power sets within an AT or even a gap between two ATs. Two, it's only "needed" for ridiculous top of the line builds that comprise maybe 1% maximum of all characters. For anyone who wants the "classic perma Hasten", you can pretty easily get 70% global Rech from set bonuses and call it a day.

 

The way I see it, nerfing Hasten would positively impact basically no one, unless you can somehow argue that making someone else's build perform worse is positive for you. It would neutrally impact the people who don't really use Hasten or just pick whatever is thematic for the character (I'd guess this is the majority of the player population), but it would negatively impact some of the most invested and vocal players.

 

If we had a time machine, then changing Hasten back in I1 would be a great call, but at this point I think it would to do more harm than good.

 

Right now, instead of looking at Hasten, I'd look at making some less used pool powers better. The reason people go for Speed/Fighting/Leadership/Travel a lot of the time isn't because all of those pools are extremely good like Hasten, but because pools like Concealment and Presence offer pretty much nothing besides being thematic for some character concepts. If we look at power pools in general, besides Hasten they mostly offer you weak attacks, some weak utility powers and weak defensive powers. Unlike the weak defensive powers, weak attacks and utility effects don't stack with your more powerful primary/secondary picks, they just replace them and overall make you weaker.

[ScarySai]

Instead of nerfing hasten, why not make other pools a bit more enticing? How about instead of nerfing weaken resolve, which was already pathetic, give people a reason to take that and not take the "standard" high end setup of leader/fighting/speed/jumping.

 

CoH's balance is too far gone to try and "save", and certainly if we take the OP's approach and remove anything that crosses some made-up inconsequential line in PVE.

 

Does hasten make the game unfun? Does hasten oppress other players in any way? Does hasten make a good build bad or a bad build good? Does hasten automatically enable you to solo +4x8?

 

It's powerful, sure. There's zero reason to change it, and changing it is going to just cause dozens of worse problems. 

 

Don't know why people are suggesting these awful ideas lately. First domination, now this.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai
Correcting autocorrect.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Don't know why people are suggesting these awful ideas lately. First domination, now this.

If you want the cynical answer, it's because its 2020 and we're not only all going nuts in quarantine, but many newer games have been made with other balance examples and fresh takes on similar mechanics

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If you want the cynical answer, it's because its 2020 and we're not only all going nuts in quarantine, but many newer games have been made with other balance examples and fresh takes on similar mechanics

Then people crying about Hasten should go play those games.

[ScarySai]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

If you want the cynical answer, it's because its 2020 and we're not only all going nuts in quarantine, but many newer games have been made with other balance examples and fresh takes on similar mechanics

I get that, but there's a difference between balancing a new game, and changing something in an established game that's been balanced around and iterated on for the better part of a decade.

 

I appreciate the desire to improve things, but these posts strike me as shortsighted.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, ZacKing said:

Then people crying about Hasten should go play those games.

Nah fam

 

CoH is home, but you can always do home projects. Coming back after so many years has people noticing that despite the amazing overall interior you have some things that could have some alterations. 

 

Not on either side of the hasten argument aside from saying that it is incredibly powerful as a pool power, which is mainly due to other pool powers also being incredibly bad.

[ZacKing]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Not on either side of the hasten argument aside from saying that it is incredibly powerful as a pool power, which is mainly due to other pool powers also being incredibly bad.

I think that's the problem.  Hasten isn't too powerful, it's that other pools suck.  Does anyone even take the presence pool?

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Does anyone even take the presence pool?

I think only tankerminds and human shades take it. The latter just being due to how easily killed the essences are.

 

Last time we had a grand sweeping attempt to balance the game, Jack almost killed it and regen's still in a coma from the aftermath of that. Going back to that isn't something I ever want to see.

 

Make bad things more worth taking, leave the good things alone.

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Blastit said:

So again I ask: why is it more sensible for the designers to jump through hoops to accomodate overpowered characters than it is to retune the IO system? Why is it more sensible to create and maintain two different difficulty modes?

Well if you read through my responses I answered this, and even agree with your difficulty mode suggestion - minus any strategic nerfs on IOs or hasten or skeletal features of the game Like those.

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Don't know why people are suggesting these awful ideas lately. First domination, now this.

I don't see it as an "awful" idea in theory. It's just that there'd be a lot more work involved than the suggestion is willing to take into account. It's a different mindset. Somewhat like top-down design vs. bottom up design. Definitely not awful, just idealistic.

 

But if hasten has to be a sacred cow until all the other "higher priority" problems are addressed then it's a simple move of the goalposts to get it to never be looked at. There's always something that could be looked at by the Devs. The importance of each item beyond basic game stability is pretty subjective.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[ScarySai]

Just now, Nanolathe said:

I don't see it as an "awful" idea in theory. It's just that there'd be a lot more work involved than the suggestion is willing to take into account. It's a different mindset. Somewhat like top-down design vs. bottom up design. Definitely not awful, just idealistic.

I'm a harsh critic when I spot something shortsighted, especially when the person pushing the idea is acting a bit unlikable. 

 

In theory it's something to think about, like "What if this worked that way? what would happen? How would we address the problems that would arise from doing that?" but would never actually support changing a super important power based on the reasoning given.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Does hasten make the game unfun? Does hasten oppress other players in any way? Does hasten make a good build bad or a bad build good? Does hasten automatically enable you to solo +4x8?

Negative to all the above, it's just a power that avail, that's good, that's better than the other choices.  

 

So why not take it?

 

Medicine and Presence are hot garbage.

 

There is no reason to take either outside of theme.

 

Every build I have is almost identical in the pool power choices.  Not because I have to, but because of theme, and function.

 

1.combat jumping - on every toon I have - more utility than hasten IMO I always budget it in.

 

2. Fly - I like to fly. Have to have it.

 

3. Hover - use it on squishes as hovering death zappers - on tanks/melee rarely use it and only pick it to get to afterburner.

 

4. Tough and weave - 100 percent pick on all my melee ATs - I think 1 squishy because it has native stealth.

 

5. Stealth.  Have it on majority of squishes, except my storm because it has steamy mist.

 

6. Maneuvers, assault, tactics - only have this on my MM and Farmer.

 

7. Hasten, because what else is left?  lol. Why not get it?

 

It's not because hasten is good, I don need the extra recharge on 90% of the 30 lvl 50 decked out Incarnates i have - my ill rad I need it maybe my farmer and blaster too?  I dunno but there is really nothing else worth picking either way.

 

Why would I pick medicine when either I know I'm not goimg to die or I have better powers either way.

 

Same with presence, it will either slow me down, burn endurance a better power could use or a primary power already does it better.

 

Super speed, super jump, teleportation, sorcery?  Nah don't like those and it's more theme over utility anyway.

 

So in my shoes what else would you pick over hasten?

 

That's not hastens fault for being good, just for being all that's left.

[ScarySai]

I -think- we agree, y u laff? :<

[Nanolathe]

Just now, ScarySai said:

In theory it's something to think about, like "What if this worked that way? what would happen? How would we address the problems that would arise from doing that?" but would never actually support changing a super important power based on the reasoning given.

Super important is, again, a subjective point of view. The more times people say "this is too important to change" especially when it comes to a power that once, warped the entire game around it (not so much anymore due to set bonuses), I personally get an itch to start mucking about with it. 

 

I don't know... Sacred Cows bother me on a fundamental level I guess.

[ScarySai]

I usually don't agree either, but if we take rage as an example, nerfing a power like that without adequate compensation and not fixing it for an indefinite amount of time hasn't ended well when HC tried it before. Hasten would require even more time to fix rage.

 

Do I like the fact that hasten is so important to the point of basically being mandated to max out your character? Not really, but I don't like the idea of removing it, as it's more trouble than it's worth at the end of the day, in my humble opinion.

 

I am very much against actions that will make people's favorite characters they are attached to less effective by a very considerable margin. Nerfing/removing Hasten would do this for a LOT of people and their builds.

Edited April 17, 2020 by ScarySai

[Nanolathe]

I mean, removing the power and putting in its place, literally anything wouldn't change the game that much. The new "max" would change a bit... maybe, but I'm confident in this player base's ability to find some way around it as it's not even a mandatory power selection these days.

 

There would still be talk about powers that are "too important" to touch... or even discuss.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[ScarySai]

I think it would change a few things considerably, of course, things that require a lot of recharge to function at the highest level, but you're right that the community would likely adapt.

 

I however, don't see the reason to rock the boat here. Fix regen, fix energy melee, fix martial combat's scaling, there's plenty of powers that need a look far more, and aren't nearly as controversial.

[Nanolathe]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I think it would change a few things considerably, of course, things that require a lot of recharge to function at the highest level, but you're right that the community would likely adapt.

 

I however, don't see the reason to rock the boat here. Fix regen, fix energy melee, fix martial combat's scaling, there's plenty of powers that need a look far more, and aren't nearly as controversial.

Hasten's availability means that it directly affects more players than the few that play /Regen, EMelee or any specific powerset combination. Why not look at it, considering it, as a single power has far more impact on the game than entire powersets? 

[ScarySai]

Because - and this is where we are going to disagree - it doesn't need to be looked at.

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Why not look at it, considering it, as a single power has far more impact on the game than entire powersets?

Why not look at making other pool sets that are hardly used to make them more desirable?

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Why not look at making other pool sets that are hardly used to make them more desirable?

I think this is the best approach. 

 

Hasten is very thematic.  It's in the Super Speed pool and it lets you do things very very fast.  

It's also extremely handy as currently coded for Controllers and Dominators (whether they are permadom or not). 

Hasten really lets you rapidly stack the magnitude of holds or other controls against EB's or AV's.

A constant-but-weaker recharge boost isn't going to be NEARLY as useful, when you are, trying to get some lockdown on the Envoy of Shadow.  It's right up there with popping a bunch of reds or purples.  

 

That said, yes, I have exactly ONE character who is taking the Presence Tree and that's basically for the Self-Rez for theme.  Because he won't normally get a self-rez but character concept is that he's literally a "cannot die" type of character.  Jack Harkness, or planescape torment Nameless One style.  He always gets back up again even if not right away.  Except for that concept, I'd never consider taking Presence.

• I don't ever want a Taunt when I'm on a character who doesn't normally get a taunting power in their primary or secondary.
• The Placate doesn't last nearly long enough to be of any use. 
• The Fears have MUCH too short a duration and MUCH too long of a recharge to be useful, and the magnitude is only good for Lieutentants or Minions anyway.

Teleportation could use some love, too.  Long Range Teleport is ENTIRELY useless in the face of the base teleporter. 

I'd like to see Teleportation get a PBAE teleport attack like Marital Combat's "Burst of Speed".

[Nanolathe]

16 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Why not look at making other pool sets that are hardly used to make them more desirable?

Not saying that's not worth doing! I'm just not against Hasten being looked at. 

 

But everyone keeps saying that we don't need to look at it. "It's fine" they say. And that makes me wonder what we could do with it! or... what we could do without it...

😮

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Zeraphia]

Why don't we just nerf the floor? It's OP that we can just walk in the game!

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

But everyone keeps saying that we don't need to look at it. "It's fine" they say. And that makes me wonder what we could do with it! or... what we could do without it...

No need to wonder about anything.  Anyone who thinks Hasten is OP and wants to dick with it can.  COde is out there for anyone to download and use.  Fire up your own server and tinker with it all you like.  Have at it.