Ice/Fire Tank need Help w. build

[grussen69]

Hey all.

 

Have a 50 Ice/Fire/Pyre Tank that I really like but not sure how to maximize defense.

This is my first toon to build with Mids, I have a general idea how it works, but don´t know all the in´s and out´s.

 

If anyone see´s any flaws in my build feel free to suggest.

I´m also not 100% on going Pyre Epic nor missing out on Build up.

I like to keep Super-Jump if at all possible (Ninja Run is ok but this toon I want to make my main).

 

The attack enchantments is where I´m really at a loss, I just fill in with whatever seems to yield lots of def and/or resist.

I know I won´t be able to afford some of the more expensive enchantments for a long while, but that´s ok; then I have a goal to work towards.

 

Tried to export my build but I cannot seem to find any buttons that support it so I used the save below.

 

(needs reslotting) Clexus - Tanker (Ice Fire Fire).mxd

Edited June 1, 2020 by grussen69

[Hjarki]

Notes:

• Soul vs. Pyre Mastery. This is really more of a 'Soul Mastery' build since you've got a weak attack in your chain and you can circumvent recharge difficulties by including Gloom. Soul Mastery is also a strong choice for most Tanking builds due to Darkest Night and the -hit it provides.
• Slotting. You've over-slotted pool powers and under-slotted your main defense toggles. Hitting 40% E/N defense on an Ice Tanker is... pathetic. It's not unreasonable to hit Incarnate levels (59%+) on S/L/E/N plus regular soft-cap on F/C (45%) with Winter sets and Aegis.
• Superior Might of the Tanker. This normally goes in the damage aura so you can just leave it on and forget about it.
• Hoarfrost. I normally split a power like this half resist/half healing. This allows you to better optimize the power itself.
• Taunt. This is normally a one slot wonder unless you've got a very good reason for the taunt set, which doesn't appear to be the case here.
• Tough. This is way underslotted. You want to push this to the limit because you've got so few resist options.
• Permafrost. The power itself is unnecessary. If you want to take it as a mule, you should mule something much more useful.
• Energy Absorption/Hibernate. I usually wouldn't take these. Energy Absorption tends to be unnecessary (with a long recharge). Hibernate just doesn't work all that well on a Tanker since it prevents attacking (and makes holding aggro difficult).
• Super Jump. Slow Resist (from the Winter set) makes more sense than additional KB protection here.
• Health/Stamina. I tend to almost universally three-slot each of these for healing set uniques and Power Transfer EndMod/+heal alongside Performance Shifter +end.
• Non-Rare sets. A good rule of thumb is that you want as many powers slotted with ATOs, Winter sets and Purple sets as possible. For example, you've got 3 melee attacks. Ideally, you'd have the Winter set in one, Hecatomb in another and an ATO in another. You've got 2 PBAoE, which would likely mean Armageddon and the other ATO (the Winter set for PBAoE doesn't match your defensive needs well), etc. This is incredibly expensive, but it's how you pile up the largest bonuses.
• Build Up. This is a great power for burst dps builds. But you have no abilities worth Building Up. It's just all standard rotational damage, so Build Up will normally be worse than just taking Assault.

[grussen69]

This is some really good info right there.

I´ll take it to heart and rebuild from scratch, see if I can get those #´s up.

 

Also not convinced about a Tank using Hibernate so I might drop that one first.

Energy Absorption has been a life savior during my leveling process, once I start farming Incarnate Resources maybe I can drop it too.

Edited June 1, 2020 by grussen69

[Hyperstrike]

Quick stab...

Goes against some of what Hjarki says (and I agree with some of it).  Just, was a last slot and nothing else really appealing in there.

 

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Sorcery
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Def:50(A), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(3), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(3), Rct-ResDam%:50(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(7), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(9)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(11), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(13), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(15)
Level 4: Combustion -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(23)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def:50(A), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(23)
Level 8: Wet Ice -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(25)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Permafrost -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(27), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(29), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(29)
Level 14: Icicles -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(33)
Level 16: Breath of Fire -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(34), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc:50(36)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LucoftheG-Def:50(A), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(36)
Level 20: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(36)
Level 22: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Ags-ResDam:50(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(37), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37), Ags-Psi/Status:50(37)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(39), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(39), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(39)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech:50(40), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End:50(40), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech:50(40), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech:50(42)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def:50(A), LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(42)
Level 32: Super Speed -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 35: Incinerate -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(45)
Level 38: Char -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(45), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(45), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(46), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(46), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc:50(46)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(50), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(50)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 47: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 49: Hibernate -- Prv-Absorb%:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(15), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(17)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
------------

 

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[grussen69]

Those #´s are really impressive.

I like that build.

 

Might I ask why you leave out Chilling Embrace? It seems like such a staple in the Ice Armor set for Tanks (and personally a big reason I picked Ice).

I suspect you leave Greater Fire Sword since it only hits one mob or perhaps the only animation in the build that uses a sword?

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by grussen69

[grussen69]

Using Hyperstrike´s build as a blueprint and taking onboard Hjarki´s tips as well as keeping a couple Powers I fancy; "Superjump" + "Chilling Embrace" and ditching "Build up", "Mystic Flight" and "SuperSpeed", I tweaked those numbers while still going Ice/Fire/Pyre. Not that any of the powers I swapped are necessary for this build, nor the Pyre Epic, they just fit my play style better.

S&M at 59,1%, E/N at 58.5%, F/C at 52.6% and AoE at 40%.

 

I guess I can press those numbers slightly higher by only 1-slotting "Haste" and moving it into "Maneuvers", which I managed to squeeze in, but I´m pretty happy with the result. Only thing I feel I lack now is "Tactics" and maybe I will swap out "Hibernate" for it.

If anyone sees any major flaws in build still feel free to suggest.

 

Thx for all the help.

 

Clexus - Tanker (Ice Fire Fire).mxd

Edited June 2, 2020 by grussen69

[Frostweaver]

I play a very different game from Hjarki and the others. I am ALWAYS at 3500 HP, and have quite a bit more devoted to moving. This is my signature character, my main, and I eke every bit of performance out of her possible. Hoarfrost is perma, and sometimes doubled, and I do not have hasten so Hoarfrost is my 'perma'

Chilling embrace is a fantastic tool both for maintaining aggro AND for protecting my team...usually when I am on a team, EVERYTHING is slowed (often way above the aggro cap) and I pop from spawn to spawn while my people are fighting to keep that nasty -14% damage amd -32% recharge debuff on EVERYTHING, even if they are over my aggro cap.
Then again, This is my trademark character. People know that when _I_ am tanking, all your aggro are belong to us.

I have energy absorption both to keep me full, as well as to provide a nice, hefty heal from the power transfer proc... and that's all the healing I need.... also, it gives me the edge I need when fighting against stuff like Earth thorn casters, who critically debuff your defense. I have hibernate for exactly the same reason. Also, because I use the debuff protection from ageless instead of recovery, NOTHING can slow down or stop me from hopping around in a fight keeping EVERYTHING glued to me.

Her defenses can handle even the worst sorts of debuffs with energy absorption, and she is, by default, innately softcapped against most attacks, and hugely defended even from Incarnates. She is not the most DESTRUCTIVE tanker out there, but that is not her job... she can hold aggro on ANYTHING and keep her team safe and productive tearing them to pieces. And moving from spawn to spawn is an absolute Breeze with spring attack, as well as setting up a recharge boost until the next spawn.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Frostweaver: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Force of Will

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Hoarfrost -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(3), Prv-Heal/Rchg(3), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(5), Prv-Heal(7)
Level 1: Scorch -- MckBrt-Rchg(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(7), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(9), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(9), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(11), MckBrt-Taunt(11)
Level 2: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(13), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(13)
Level 4: Combustion -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Arm-Acc/Rchg(19), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(21)
Level 6: Chilling Embrace -- ImpSwf-Dam%(A), ImpSwf-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(21), ImpSwf-Rng/Slow(23), ImpSwf-Acc/Slow(23)
Level 8: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Icicles -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(29)
Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), GldArm-3defTpProc(31), UnbGrd-ResDam(31), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31)
Level 16: Super Jump -- WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng(A)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(33), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(33), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(33), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(34)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(34), Ksm-ToHit+(36)
Level 24: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--ToHit(37)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(39), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(50)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(40), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(40)
Level 30: Permafrost -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 32: Weaken Resolve -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 35: Incinerate -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(42), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Fire Sword -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Hct-Acc/Rchg(43), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 41: Taunt -- MckBrt-Rchg(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(45), MckBrt-Taunt(46)
Level 44: Greater Fire Sword -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(46), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 47: Spring Attack -- Obl-%Dam(A), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(50), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Spr-EndRdx/Jump(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany
------------

 

 

[Parabola]

18 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Energy Absorption tends to be unnecessary (with a long recharge).

You leave out energy absorption?! It fixes end problems (which are a real thing on ice tanks) and provides extra defences to provide a buffer for debuffs or shoot for incarnate caps. Sure you can do almost anything with IO's and incarnates and can likely build so much defence and recovery in that you might not need it eventually, but levelling and exemped down it's got to be easier to have it surely?

 

18 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Hibernate just doesn't work all that well on a Tanker since it prevents attacking (and makes holding aggro difficult).

This is true but I still took it on my ice tank. In an ideal world the tank would never be in danger of going down and so the power would be completely redundant but accidents do happen. At that point you can pop hibernate and run the risk of losing aggro and not attack while you get some health back, or die and definitely lose all aggro and not be able to attack. If you die and get rezzed then you have to toggle up, which is a bit of a process on an ice tank, but hibernate avoids that too. And it works perfectly well with just the base slot. I certainly don't consider it a must take but I always would.

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, parabola said:

You leave out energy absorption?! It fixes end problems (which are a real thing on ice tanks) and provides extra defences to provide a buffer for debuffs or shoot for incarnate caps. Sure you can do almost anything with IO's and incarnates and can likely build so much defence and recovery in that you might not need it eventually, but levelling and exemped down it's got to be easier to have it surely?

Getting defense from an AE 'drain'-style ability is very unreliable. Given that Ice can get Incarnate-level S/L/E/N defenses without it, the value for the purpose of defense has never been high on my list. In terms of the end return, that really depends on your overall endurance structure. But, again, the AE drain methodology is problematic - normally your biggest end problems come during protracted single target fights rather than intermittent AE fights.

 

[Hyperstrike]

16 hours ago, grussen69 said:

Those #´s are really impressive.

I like that build.

 

Might I ask why you leave out Chilling Embrace? It seems like such a staple in the Ice Armor set for Tanks (and personally a big reason I picked Ice).

I suspect you leave Greater Fire Sword since it only hits one mob or perhaps the only animation in the build that uses a sword?

 

Honestly, I know that CE slows down incoming attacks.
However, at those Defense levels, I'm not terribly worried.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, grussen69 said:

Using Hyperstrike´s build as a blueprint and taking onboard Hjarki´s tips as well as keeping a couple Powers I fancy; "Superjump" + "Chilling Embrace" and ditching "Build up", "Mystic Flight" and "SuperSpeed", I tweaked those numbers while still going Ice/Fire/Pyre. Not that any of the powers I swapped are necessary for this build, nor the Pyre Epic, they just fit my play style better.

S&M at 59,1%, E/N at 58.5%, F/C at 52.6% and AoE at 40%.

 

I guess I can press those numbers slightly higher by only 1-slotting "Haste" and moving it into "Maneuvers", which I managed to squeeze in, but I´m pretty happy with the result. Only thing I feel I lack now is "Tactics" and maybe I will swap out "Hibernate" for it.

If anyone sees any major flaws in build still feel free to suggest.

 

Thx for all the help.

 

Clexus - Tanker (Ice Fire Fire).mxd 5.21 kB · 1 download

If you are a Defense-oriented tank and you're taking Maneuvers, you've failed.

End of story.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Honestly, I know that CE slows down incoming attacks.
However, at those Defense levels, I'm not terribly worried.

It's not so much the mitigation (it debuffs damage as well as slowing) but the aggro it generates that makes it a must have. Nothing is stickier than an ice tank running icicles and chilling embrace.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you are a Defense-oriented tank and you're taking Maneuvers, you've failed.

End of story.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Tanks get good modifiers in the leadership pool and getting defence from maneuvers might free things up elsewhere in a build. Also your teammates get to benefit. The end cost is a major consideration on a toggle heavy AT though.

[Hjarki]

21 minutes ago, parabola said:

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Tanks get good modifiers in the leadership pool and getting defence from maneuvers might free things up elsewhere in a build. Also your teammates get to benefit. The end cost is a major consideration on a toggle heavy AT though.

I wrote a long diatribe about this elsewhere, but the end cost of toggles isn't why you run out of endurance.

 

Maneuvers costs 0.39 end/sec. That's obviously quite a lot when you consider that purple sets with their 4% Recovery are restoring 0.07% End/sec.

 

Let's say we have a rotation of Incinerate -> Scorch -> Greater Fire Sword -> Scorch (not sure if this is an optimal rotation, but it's just an example). That entire rotation would cost 6.86 + 12.69 + 4.37 * 2 = 28.29 endurance. It would cycle in 1.848 + 2.508 + 1.188 * 2 = 6.73 secs. So your endurance consumption from this single target rotation would be 28.29 / 6.73 = 4.20 end/sec. That's an order of magnitude more endurance than you're spending on Maneuvers.

 

Indeed, running all of your Ice Armor toggles is only 1.56 end/sec (about a third of that is Icicles).

 

If we slot a single level 50 endurance reduction IO into Greater Fire Sword, the cost of our single target rotation will drop by 0.56 end/sec - more than enough to 'pay for' Maneuvers.

 

While slots aren't perfectly fungible, Maneuvers itself is likely to save you that endurance reduction slot because you can use it to mule Shield Wall/Reactive Defenses where you might otherwise have to spend a slot in another defensive power. You can realistically consume up to 7 different defensive powers just on 5xLotG and the 2 global uniques.

[Parabola]

45 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I wrote a long diatribe about this elsewhere, but the end cost of toggles isn't why you run out of endurance.

 

Maneuvers costs 0.39 end/sec. That's obviously quite a lot when you consider that purple sets with their 4% Recovery are restoring 0.07% End/sec.

 

Let's say we have a rotation of Incinerate -> Scorch -> Greater Fire Sword -> Scorch (not sure if this is an optimal rotation, but it's just an example). That entire rotation would cost 6.86 + 12.69 + 4.37 * 2 = 28.29 endurance. It would cycle in 1.848 + 2.508 + 1.188 * 2 = 6.73 secs. So your endurance consumption from this single target rotation would be 28.29 / 6.73 = 4.20 end/sec. That's an order of magnitude more endurance than you're spending on Maneuvers.

 

Indeed, running all of your Ice Armor toggles is only 1.56 end/sec (about a third of that is Icicles).

 

If we slot a single level 50 endurance reduction IO into Greater Fire Sword, the cost of our single target rotation will drop by 0.56 end/sec - more than enough to 'pay for' Maneuvers.

 

While slots aren't perfectly fungible, Maneuvers itself is likely to save you that endurance reduction slot because you can use it to mule Shield Wall/Reactive Defenses where you might otherwise have to spend a slot in another defensive power. You can realistically consume up to 7 different defensive powers just on 5xLotG and the 2 global uniques.

All of this is entirely true but isn't the whole of the story. We don't attack constantly so we alternate between periods of high endurance use and recovery. Running toggles doesn't massively increase our endurance use as such but it does cut down on our endurance recovery. Slotting attacks for end reduction is vitally important but if you are running so many toggles that your net recovery is minimal then you are going to burn yourself out either way. The answer is of course to keep an eye on the whole picture, slot attacks for end reduction and try to keep a decent net recovery so you can keep downtimes to a minimum.

 

As I said, I think it's perfectly fine to take maneuvers on a defence tank. I just put the endurance use comment in as a bit of balance as I couldn't see any other reason why it would be considered such a bad idea that it represented 'a failure'.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, parabola said:

That's a bit of a sweeping statement.

But 100% true.
 

4 hours ago, parabola said:

Tanks get good modifiers in the leadership pool and getting defence from maneuvers might free things up elsewhere in a build. Also your teammates get to benefit. The end cost is a major consideration on a toggle heavy AT though.

For a Resist-Centric Tank.  Maybe. 

But that's NOT what we're talking about here.

For a Defense-based tank, not really.  Hover and CJ deliver the same Defense at a fraction of the cost.
Stealth, antithetical as it is to Tanking, delivers superior concealed Defense and identical unconcealed Defense at a lower cost.

And yes, it helps teammates in a team environment.
My primary concern is building the toughest possible tank, either solo OR teamed.


 

 

4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I wrote a long diatribe about this elsewhere, but the end cost of toggles isn't why you run out of endurance.

Read it.  And yes, for high levels, it's mostly true.

For deep exemping, not always the case.

[Frostweaver]

16 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Honestly, I know that CE slows down incoming attacks.
However, at those Defense levels, I'm not terribly worried.

 

16 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you are a Defense-oriented tank and you're taking Maneuvers, you've failed.

End of story.

You have never played an ice tanker, or if you have, you have never done it in a team without a pocket emp or buffer. You have no idea how to hold aggro or protect a team. Please let me know who your 'tankers' are and what server you play on so that I can make sure that I NEVER make the mistake of inviting one of them to a team and expect them to actually tank.

This is the worst and most ill-informed set of opinions I have seen on these forums in a LONG time.

End of story.

[Hyperstrike]

 

Brownian Cessation
Ice/Ice/Ice (Baby!)

He DOES have CE.  And it really doesn't do much for him.  Mainly because he's built speed TFs.

And don't worry, I don't have a need to team with you.  So go ahead and block my Global.

It'll save me the condescension.

[Parabola]

I'm finding myself wondering why the tanker community has such a tendency towards absolutism. You don't see the volume of 'my opinion is fact' or 'if you don't take x, y, or z then you are doing it wrong' in other AT forums. The biggest sin any player can commit is nothing to do with their build or even their skill at playing, it's being a rude or objectionable teammate/member of the community. In my opinion of course :).

[KC4800]

Everyone knows Ice Armor pairs best with Stone Melee. That's a fact, Jack. 

Spoiler

Just my opinion.

 

[Hyperstrike]

10 hours ago, parabola said:

I'm finding myself wondering why the tanker community has such a tendency towards absolutism. You don't see the volume of 'my opinion is fact' or 'if you don't take x, y, or z then you are doing it wrong' in other AT forums. The biggest sin any player can commit is nothing to do with their build or even their skill at playing, it's being a rude or objectionable teammate/member of the community. In my opinion of course :).

Maybe because only Sith deal in absolutes.

And when you're an Immovable Object, you're about as absolute as it gets.

Plus, I like making statements like this.  Because, while the basic sentiment isn't "Wrong", I in no way say that it's always right either.
I could use words like "crutch" instead.  But I find talk about "failure" tends to grab people's attention better.
And the adversarial manner of doing so pushes people to always keep looking for options.
Doing so has allowed me to see some of the absolute SICKEST builds imaginable.

Plus, I'm a brightly burning troll at heart.
VIrtual looks of "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?" just warm the cockles of my heart.
Maybe below the cockles, maybe in the sub-cockle area.
Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon,
I just don't know.

Translation:
99.9% of the stuff that comes out of my mouth (or off my keyboard) is intended to be funny on one or more levels.
The remaining 0.1% is just straight BS.
The fun part is trying to figure out the actual admixture...

Edited June 3, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Frostweaver]

On 6/3/2020 at 12:05 AM, Hyperstrike said:

It'll save me the condescension.

Congratulations, you learned how to take screenshots and use the costume creator. Give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back.

22 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Plus, I'm a brightly burning troll at heart.

 

The problem is there are so many Secret Kings like you that are convinced they are clever and funny.  It's not even aggravating anymore, it's simply tiring.  Giving out bad or ridiculous advice and then pretending it was all a joke when someone notices, just like every.other.one.

Chilling Embrace is Ice Armor's best ability. -32% recharge and -14% damage is a good, solid, third of their mitigation. It is so good at grabbing aggro that not even a chain-blasting fire blaster or any brutes can peel the enemy off.  Sure, you can run a pure-melee-pool blaster. You can run fire armor and not bother with burn, or a PA-free illusion controller. Heck, I have a semi-petless MM that I used as a challenge build that double stacks Gang War and relies on traps to do MOTF's. The game is easy enough that weird and stupid ideas CAN be made semi-successful.

But that does not make them good, clever, or worthwhile ideas. It just makes stupid things possible as 'challenge builds'. Bragging rights? sure. Good ideas? No.

If your tanker needs an extra 3% defense to cap your defenses, or needs the extra slot to add an extra 10% recharge from one more LOTG proc, or wants an extra defense power after already slotting 5 LOTG's in order to get a special set bonus or free up a set defense power for 6 slotting red fortune or reactive defenses, Maneuvers is a fantastic idea. against +3 enemies going from 52% defense to 55% defense, or offsetting praetorian, cimeroran, or CoT earth thorn debuffs, maneuvers is a fantastic idea.

A good builder knows to look at many possible options to optimize his utility.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Frostweaver]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:17 AM, parabola said:

I'm finding myself wondering why the tanker community has such a tendency towards absolutism. You don't see the volume of 'my opinion is fact' or 'if you don't take x, y, or z then you are doing it wrong' in other AT forums. The biggest sin any player can commit is nothing to do with their build or even their skill at playing, it's being a rude or objectionable teammate/member of the community. In my opinion of course :).

Because Tankers are the ones still standing after a team wipe. When they feel no sense of responsibility for being a failure as a 'tanker', they tend to falsely perceive their incompetence as brilliance or 'skizzils' rather than the reality that the AT is simply built to survive ANYTHING. Even most 'bad builds' can survive crap that will floor pretty much every other AT.

 

Any Tanker can survive anything. A Competent tanker can survive anything and keep the teammates that stay near them alive at the same time. A GOOD tanker can keep themselves and their close teammates alive AND minimize their damage by positioning, optimize teams aoe's by staying near cap, and gathering strays or focussing efforts on especially troublesome enemies. a GREAT Tanker can do all that PLUS communicate and keep their team informed about the flow of the tasks and act in a leadership role, and a superb Tanker does all that and can recognize or compensate for massive weaknesses through tactics, or kicking that weakness off the team.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Hyperstrike]

Had a longer response here.
Thought better of it.
I see enough aggro out in the real world.
I refuse to put up with it in my passtime.
And you've done nothing to warrant further explanation.

You do you, I'll do me.

Bye.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Frostweaver]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Thank you for your definition of a good builder.

You are quite welcome.