DP or Ice or Water

[FUBARczar]

I have 3 Sentinels (all /Bio) in their 30s, and I am going to choose one to finish.  Which should be the One?  Which set is worth it the most? Best DPS?

 

Dual Pistols

Ice Blast

Water Blast

[oldskool]

The one you enjoy the most should be the one.  

 

AoE = Water Blast >> Ice Blast = Dual Pistols...   Maybe not quite equals.  Depends on how well you leverage Ice Storm and if you took Frost Breath or not.  Otherwise Dual Pistols maybe better.  

 

ST = Ice Blast > Dual Pistols > Water Blast...  This is generally going to be true if you use procs or not.  The gap between Ice Blast and Dual Pistols is fairly small but the ability to use Aim should allow Ice to pull ahead.  

[Knottewe]

Fire is the best dps if that's all you're looking for.

 

But from those 3, water has great aoe but mediocre single target, ice has great single target but lower aoe, and dual pistols is a solid all arounder.

 

@oldskool has written extensively about dp/sr (well, everything sentinel related really) and he's far more eloquent than me so do a search, he'll sort you out.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Knottewe

[Knottewe]

Or he'll just show up while I'm typing

[FUBARczar]

yeah I am leaning DP or Ice the most to be honest, partly b/c I am favoring ST dmg a little over AOE dmg.   Just am wondering too about the lack of Aim...  

[Underfyre]

If we're being honest, ice isn't that great for AOE damage either. Ice Storm is a 94 damage base that takes 15 seconds to deliver it's entire damage versus DPs Bullet Rain that does 70 damage (with incendiary ammo) in 1 second on a recharge that can be brought down to 9 seconds with just 2 IOs, so not even considering all the global recharge you can amass. Comparing the T9s isn't really necessary since they're both on a 90 second recharge, but Blizzard does 180 damage and Hail of Bullets does 240 damage.

[Frostweaver]

1 hour ago, underfyre said:

If we're being honest, ice isn't that great for AOE damage either. Ice Storm is a 94 damage base that takes 15 seconds to deliver it's entire damage versus DPs Bullet Rain that does 70 damage (with incendiary ammo) in 1 second on a recharge that can be brought down to 9 seconds with just 2 IOs, so not even considering all the global recharge you can amass. Comparing the T9s isn't really necessary since they're both on a 90 second recharge, but Blizzard does 180 damage and Hail of Bullets does 240 damage.

Yep, Ice is one of the best aoe dps only on corrupter due to scourge ticks. Water and DP both overtake it on sentinels.

[SwitchFade]

Ice>>>>>>>>dp

 

11 days a week and 3 times on Sunday if you want ST

 

DP is just meh in sentinels.

 

[Hjarki]

6 hours ago, Knottewe said:

Fire is the best dps if that's all you're looking for.

 

But from those 3, water has great aoe but mediocre single target, ice has great single target but lower aoe, and dual pistols is a solid all arounder.

 

@oldskool has written extensively about dp/sr (well, everything sentinel related really) and he's far more eloquent than me so do a search, he'll sort you out.

Fire is certainly near the top for single target dps but its AE dps really isn't much to write home about. It also tends to lack the features that make slotting for extra damage possible. Electrical is actually a serious contender for single target, but it depends on build.

 

Ice isn't all that great on Sentinels. Pretty much everything is either the same or nerfed from the Blaster/Defender/Corruptor version. The fantastic Freezing Ray gets changed into a lower dpa Sleep. The awesome Blizzard gets nerfed down to being just a standard ultimate. The result is a set with terrible single target performance coupled with mediocre AE performance.

 

Dual Pistols is another set I don't like on Sentinels. While you can go proc-happy with the set, it just doesn't deliver all that much damage in either ST or AE. It has slow activations and the fact that your Hold is now a viable attack doesn't counterbalance the lack of Aim or any high dpa attacks.

 

Water is the best AE set of those mentioned - by a wide margin. It has two knockback AE for Force Feedback procs. Geyser and Whirlpool are both the best damage of their class (ultimate, location AE) for Sentinels. It's also better single target on Sentinels than on other AT because the balance of damage is shifted slightly towards Water Jet. Moreover, Water Jet is one of the most proc-friendly attacks around due to its special mechanic. However, Water doesn't have a 'killer the runner' big ST attack.

 

[oldskool]

18 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

yeah I am leaning DP or Ice the most to be honest, partly b/c I am favoring ST dmg a little over AOE dmg.   Just am wondering too about the lack of Aim...  

I miss Aim sometimes with Dual Pistols, but it is manageable.  

While there are plenty of great points here some if it is really just splitting hairs.  

[Hjarki]

13 hours ago, oldskool said:

I miss Aim sometimes with Dual Pistols, but it is manageable.   

On a Blaster/Defender/Corruptor, not having Aim is manageable. On a Sentinel, it's crippling because you use it before every ultimate. So that's Aim + Gaussian's + Ultimate for massive damage every spawn.

[oldskool]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

On a Blaster/Defender/Corruptor, not having Aim is manageable. On a Sentinel, it's crippling because you use it before every ultimate. So that's Aim + Gaussian's + Ultimate for massive damage every spawn.

Manageable - "able to be managed, controlled, or accomplished without great difficulty"

 

Crippling - (definition 2, because we're not discussing a person/animal) - "causing a severe and almost insuperable problem"

 

Dual Pistols without Aim can still accomplish content in this game without great difficulty.  Yes, it can take longer to take down spawns without controllable Aim + Gaussian's, but it is neither severe nor is it an almost impossible problem to do so.  Inconvenient, yes.  Impossible to play?  Hardly. 

[Hjarki]

46 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Dual Pistols without Aim can still accomplish content in this game without great difficulty.  Yes, it can take longer to take down spawns without controllable Aim + Gaussian's, but it is neither severe nor is it an almost impossible problem to do so.  Inconvenient, yes.  Impossible to play?  Hardly. 

+100% damage on your ultimate every time it's up is about 50% more damage. Since the rapidly recharging ultimates are really the only advantage Sentinels have over other AT, I'd call this a pretty big deal. The Sentinel-with-Aim is going to be competitive (aside from target caps) vs. the Blaster for sustained AE dps. The Sentinel-without-Aim is not - and they're not going to be competitive with any other style of damage either.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

+100% damage on your ultimate every time it's up is about 50% more damage. Since the rapidly recharging ultimates are really the only advantage Sentinels have over other AT, I'd call this a pretty big deal. The Sentinel-with-Aim is going to be competitive (aside from target caps) vs. the Blaster for sustained AE dps. The Sentinel-without-Aim is not - and they're not going to be competitive with any other style of damage either.

This is stretching the truth in order to make a point.  

 

Aim grants +50% to-hit and damage for 10 seconds.  The Gaussian proc has to be slotted in order for it matter.  The effect of that proc is +80%, and whatever level of to-hit I don't need, for just over 5 seconds.  Yes, Gaussian's is 80% on Sentinels.  Please feel free to log in and check for yourself.  I know I did.  Mid's states this and it is correct.  

 

Hail of Bullets has an animation time that consumes the bulk of the Gaussian buff window.  You could queue another power before it was over and gain benefit into another attack.  If Aim existed it would have less than 6 seconds remaining time.   Another note, Mid's has the incorrect values on Sentinel attacks like Empty Clips and Bullet Rain.  The real values are higher than what the planner shows.  This is yet another example of where I can literally log into the game and see this information side-by-side.  

Hail of Bullets has a downtime.  If we're going to play this game of No True Scotsman, then No True Sentinel needs a few parameters.  No true Sentinel skips Aim.  No true Sentinel skips adding the Gaussian proc.  No True Sentinel skips building towards having a 30 second or less T9 availability.   We could be a bit more generous and pretend that all Sentinels work their T9 + Aim to 25 seconds or less. 

 

So 130% bonus damage to Hail of Bullets compromises 50% more damage?  What time frame are we talking about here?  Just how much damage do you think you really do within a 25 to 30 second window?  

 

I do enjoy playing my Dual Pistols characters.  I am not so much of a fanboy that I can't see some faults in the set.  Criticism of the kit can hold merit, but only when we're being honest with the discussion and not making some pretty wild claims.  

[Underfyre]

Well let's look at the math.  I'm just going to type this out as I go, so I have no idea what the results will be.

 

Other sets have Aim, DP has Ammo swap, so instead of a 50% damage boost, they have what is essentially a permanent damage increase from their incendiary ammo. This increases half of their damage by 75% on the low end, and 142% (T9) on the high end. Overall for the T9, this equates to a 71% damage when accounting for the total. For the purpose of using Aim right before activating your T9, yeah, a 71% boost is obviously better than a 50% boost. What Aim also has going for it is the availability of the Gaussian proc. You have to go to ridiculous lengths to make its proc chance anything but 90%, so it is essentially guaranteed to go off when you use Aim. So in this instance the T9 with Aim + Gaussian has a boost of 130%. So assuming you have Gaussian's in Aim, Aim wins. If not, DP wins.

 

Then you have to look at the average up-time of Aim, which will be its boost multiplied by its duration divided by its cooldown. I don't know about you all, but at the highest ends of slotting with permahasten, you'll most likely be looking at around a 27-29 second recharge. So that's (50% * 10 / 27) = 18.52%. So that's another (80% * 5.25 / 27 * 90%) = 14% with Gaussian for a total of 32.52% average up time. Remember these are only good for 10/5.25 seconds every 27 seconds. Incendiary Ammo is always active, increasing damage by between 23% and 35%, not including the T9 at 71%

 

So at the end of the day, it looks like not having Aim isn't really a hindrance to DP. All of the abilities have above a 100% base hit chance, and Incendiary Ammo is pretty similar to the effects of having Aim. aim isn't the only place to store Gaussian's either, although it is really the most convenient place with regards to triggering it exactly when you want to. So technically if you put Guassian's in Tactics or a secondary ability like Invincible DP would actually come out ahead.