"Meta" Tweaks

[ShardWarrior]

It is not difficult to understand where anyone is coming from on either side of the perceived issue.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

It is a side note tho that you can use them in non-incarnate content which inflates their perceived power. Anyone running stuff at lvl 45 and above can see Incarnate abilities used, which combined with how easy it is to get them as Monos mentioned can be a sort of double whammy.

 

@Yomo Kimyata, "Meta" in this sense is referring to the Game within the Game. CoH at it's basic level is a bout making your own character and going to town beating up on villains from mission to mission. The game within that game is then the best way to go about beating up villains mission to mission. For example, the mission to mission part has a "meta" in terms of the best means of travel where sometimes even the fastest (Super Speed) is not optimal due to vertically challenging zones. Likewise skipping any sort of travel is anti-meta as you have made it harder to get mission to mission. It's still possible to get everywhere you need to go, and it is definitely your choice to be a "sprint only guy", but it is not optimal.

 

Same applies with missions. Even at +0/x0 difficulty, most encounters are with more than one enemy at a time. You could use ST attacks to take them out one by one, or use an AoE to hit them all at once. You have CC abilities, you could just fire it off at random at the first guy you see, or pick a select target to lock down first for better safety. So on and so forth.

 

Team content by default has you face off against hordes of enemies, which by nature makes AoE powers higher value until you run into particularly difficult single targets. If we're looking at the game "as a whole", those single targets are much more rare than your normal group of baddies. If we focus on just certain trials/etc, then they become much more relevant. Just like the Super Speed example vs Vertical Maps, Flight or Super Jump get better the more verticality there is but with less SS pulls ahead. "Meta" refers to the natural optimization of play based on the challenges you have to overcome. 

 

 

I do think that overall, even with the specific trials/etc considered, the game does heavily favor AoE Damage over other traits for a variety of reasons already discussed. My OP gives a snapshot of what is probably observable in any given team vs any given mob of random enemies is capable of with an "average" AoE volley. Could they perform worse? Yes. Can they perform much better by adding nukes / etc? Also yes. But, despite this being a snapshot it does paint a picture that your "average team" just tossing out powers into a group of baddies is very powerful and at the very least makes Crowd Control powers overshadowed if most incoming damage can be eliminated by attacks. If a controller using their secondary to boost the damage of a team mate is more "effective" than using their primary to lock down the enemies, that seems a bit dubious as you'd think their primary function would be their highlight.

 

 

The call for more incarnate content could tie into this all though. Identifying what the current meta favors and throwing challenges that require different strategies than the norm + some altered stats could be perfect for breathing new life into certain sets, playstyles, or even AT's. Just food for thought, but imagine if more things acted like Hami Mitos where you needed to CC them first in some manner to begin damaging them in a new Incarnate setting...

 

 

 

[Apparition]

Yep.  And I would like to see some new Incarnate content where you have to be in melee range in order to deal any damage.  Turn the tables a bit.

[ShardWarrior]

41 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It is a side note tho that you can use them in non-incarnate content which inflates their perceived power. Anyone running stuff at lvl 45 and above can see Incarnate abilities used, which combined with how easy it is to get them as Monos mentioned can be a sort of double whammy.

No doubt.  However, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming "no incarnate powers" teams and running any content they like.  The perceived problem already has a very simple solution.  It just seems some folk do not want to be bothered to do a minimal amount of effort to organize these.

[Galaxy Brain]

37 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No doubt.  However, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming "no incarnate powers" teams and running any content they like.  The perceived problem already has a very simple solution.  It just seems some folk do not want to be bothered to do a minimal amount of effort to organize these.

Yes, you can do this but it's kind of obtuse unless you reach out and organize a specialized group of people to join along and for the people who do enjoy incarnate powers it is exclusionary. I think the healthier option would be to make optional content that leans on how Incarnates are much more common as well as leans into the sort of "anti meta" for some different/thrilling content.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[ShardWarrior]

35 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yes, you can do this but it's kind of obtuse unless you reach out and organize a specialized group of people to join along and for the people who do enjoy incarnate powers it is exclusionary. I think the healthier option would be to make optional content that leans on how Incarnates are much more common as well as leans into the sort of "anti meta" for some different/thrilling content.

I can only speak for myself here, but if people want to create their own exclusive groups to run all the content they like without using incarnate powers, more power to them.  I would not feel excluded at all.  There are people advertising for non-speed TFs all the time and people are joining them.  Why is it somehow more difficult to advertise no incarnate power teams? 

 

Long term I would agree more incarnate specific content is needed.  In the interim, people can form their own groups to run any content without incarnate powers with like minded players.

Edited June 30, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Powercreep]

On 6/27/2020 at 10:43 PM, Monos King said:

If it were added as is proposed with what I presume to be vector knockback, that would simply contribute to powercreep...on paper.

Draw me like like one of your French girls!

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yes, you can do this but it's kind of obtuse unless you reach out and organize a specialized group of people to join along and for the people who do enjoy incarnate powers it is exclusionary. I think the healthier option would be to make optional content that leans on how Incarnates are much more common as well as leans into the sort of "anti meta" for some different/thrilling content.

What's "obtuse" about typing "No incarnate powers TF team forming. PST for invite" into LFG or any of the TF forming channels? 

[Galaxy Brain]

19 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

What's "obtuse" about typing "No incarnate powers TF team forming. PST for invite" into LFG or any of the TF forming channels? 

You're asking people to un-slot a number of things in order to join your team which can be off-putting compared to just joining a PuG normally. Like if you replaced Incarnate with anything else (No Stalker TF forming, No Energy Blast Team Forming), I bet people would understandably be questionable of the team.

 

Yes, we as players have the ability to form specialized teams and make our own "rules", but look at the reaction to that whenever the same idea is suggested with Knockback 😜

 

 

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You're asking people to un-slot a number of things in order to join your team which can be off-putting compared to just joining a PuG normally. Like if you replaced Incarnate with anything else (No Stalker TF forming, No Energy Blast Team Forming), I bet people would understandably be questionable of the team.

 

Yes, we as players have the ability to form specialized teams and make our own "rules", but look at the reaction to that whenever the same idea is suggested with Knockback 😜

 

 

Knockback powers can't be easily unslotted. Incarnate powers can. And it's really not that much of a burden if you're serious about it.

 

What I think you'll find (I think you know based on what you just typed) is that most folks would not want to join a team of "no incarnate powers" because the majority of players like them.

 

Even if you had the difficulty options to remove them automatically, you'd still had to advertise to anyone who joins a level 45-50 tf that they were joining one where those powers were auto removed. That's not something you can just spring on folks. So you would STILL have to advertise this whether you had those difficulty options or not.

 

Just saying.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You're asking people to un-slot a number of things in order to join your team which can be off-putting compared to just joining a PuG normally. Like if you replaced Incarnate with anything else (No Stalker TF forming, No Energy Blast Team Forming), I bet people would understandably be questionable of the team.

I am not sure I buy this.  From what I am reading here in this thread and from others, there are quite a few people who would have no issue whatsoever unslotting incarnates to run a TF.  Are they not the target audience?  If people do not want to do that, then they do not have to and can find another team that suits their play style.

 

I do not see advertising for no incarnate power teams being obtuse at all.  It is no different than people forming all <insert AT here> TF runs.  Seems to me there are people here who would jump at the chance to do it.

[ZacKing]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You're asking people to un-slot a number of things in order to join your team which can be off-putting compared to just joining a PuG normally. Like if you replaced Incarnate with anything else (No Stalker TF forming, No Energy Blast Team Forming), I bet people would understandably be questionable of the team.

Yeah there's nothing obtuse about it man.  It's no different than asking people to speed a TF or looking for a specific AT to round out a team.  If you don't like how PUG teams are running, stop pugging.  That's not a game problem, that's a you problem.

 

Sounds to me like the preference of the people wanting no incarnates is to force everyone to play their specific way instead of letting everyone form groups and play how they like.  the option is already there to do just that.  people just don't want to do it.

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah there's nothing obtuse about it man.  It's no different than asking people to speed a TF or looking for a specific AT to round out a team.  If you don't like how PUG teams are running, stop pugging.  That's not a game problem, that's a you problem.

 

Sounds to me like the preference of the people wanting no incarnates is to force everyone to play their specific way instead of letting everyone form groups and play how they like.  the option is already there to do just that.  people just don't want to do it.

Honestly if I joined a lvl 45-50 tf/sf that had not advertised ahead of time that it was a "no incarnate powers" tf and suddenly found my incarnate powers turned off when the sf/tf started, I would tell the leader "you better reform, I'm out". Then drop.

 

I don't like things sprung on me in teaming at the last second. If I see it forming in LFG, I better have all the info BEFORE we start. Especially since tfs are a time commitment (especially some of the longer shadow shard ones).

 

I don't think I'm the only one.

Edited July 1, 2020 by golstat2003

[Troo]

On 6/30/2020 at 3:56 AM, ShardWarrior said:

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

I want to agree with this statement. It is accurate, it is also only half (or part of) the story.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

I want to agree with this statement. It is accurate, it is also only half (or part of) the story.

I completely agree.  At least to me, if we had much more content available for incarnates, it would make removing their use from the normal 45-50 content much less painful.

[Troo]

Yep.

 

I think I posted this previously: Alpha should be available in more content (like a purple enhancement), beyond Alpha should be limited to level 50 and above content.

[golstat2003]

18 minutes ago, Troo said:

Yep.

 

I think I posted this previously: Alpha should be available in more content (like a purple enhancement), beyond Alpha should be limited to level 50 and above content.

I think you meant "should have been". It's waaaay too late at this point to make such a change.

[Galaxy Brain]

Fair points, I suppose the difference is in the language though. Advertising "Hey, X AT run!" vs "Hey, NO X!" has different connotations IMO. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

I think you meant "should have been". It's waaaay too late at this point to make such a change.

No I didn't, and No it's not.

 

The dev effort for pushing the demarcation line from 45 to 50 is a non-issue.

 

As a counter balance, allowing Alpha to be the exception, is the effort involved.

 

Result:

No change for level 50 teams or level 50 +4/8. Incarnates would benefit from alpha when malefactoring or exemplaring. Powers like judgement wouldn't show up in level 49 and below content.

 

Should it apply to level 50 +0/8 and below? Maybe. That might be a preferred point of demarcation.

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Troo

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

No I didn't and no it's not.

 

The dev effort for pushing the demarcation line from 45 to 50 is a non-issue.

 

As a counter balance, allowing Alpha to be the exception, is the effort involved.

 

Result:

No change for level 50 teams or level 50 +4/8. Incarnates would benefit from alpha when malefactoring or exemplaring. Powers like judgement wouldn't show up in level 49 and below content.

 

Nerf Regen!.. it's Wednesday.. wait I'm a regen.

Then I would advocate against this change. I prefer to be able to use all incarnate powers from 45 to 50 period. I'd advocate against such a change.

 

Any change to how incarnate powers works now of this level should be in OPTIONAL difficulty options like we've been saying all thread.

[Troo]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 options like we've been saying all thread.

You seem to be content putting words in other people's mouths (my mouth included). Just fyi, that's not cool, and I won't just let it slide.

 

"some" could be accurate, or specifically listing who "we" is could be another way to go.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Troo

[ShardWarrior]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Fair points, I suppose the difference is in the language though. Advertising "Hey, X AT run!" vs "Hey, NO X!" has different connotations IMO. 

Both statements are exclusionary.  I do not see why looking for others to run non incarnate power teams is somehow nefarious or negative.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

You seem to be content putting words in other people's mouths. Just fyi, that's no cool, and I won't just let it slide.

I'm not putting words in people's mouths. The main point has always been that changes being discussed in this thread would be in optional difficulty options.

It seemed like you were saying the incarnate change shouldn't be optional. If I"m misreading what you said, apologies.

 

But to be clear removing incarnate power use (besides Alpha) from levels below 50 should only be in new difficulty options. Shouldn't be made to the overall base game.

 

EDIT: The OP can come in and correct if I'm wrong in reading what folks have been saying that these suggestions should be in optional difficulty options.

Edited July 1, 2020 by golstat2003

[Galaxy Brain]

So, to steer back on topic. 

 

We have a few points here:

 

1) In general, AoE damage is king simply due to how the game works

2) Because of AoE damage prowess, and personal defenses, certain types of play are devalued or out-competed

3) Incarnate powers can emphasize these traits 

 

I think all 3 could be addressed via altered content. For example, a "Master Mode" for TF's and Story Arcs that triggers Elite Boss spawns, spawns with incredible defenses unless they get CC'd, spawns that require specific positional attacks to hit since they have great def vs other positions, etc. Something that encourages players to use more of their toolkits than just the best damaging abilities. 

[golstat2003]

24 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, to steer back on topic. 

 

We have a few points here:

 

1) In general, AoE damage is king simply due to how the game works

2) Because of AoE damage prowess, and personal defenses, certain types of play are devalued or out-competed

3) Incarnate powers can emphasize these traits 

 

I think all 3 could be addressed via altered content. For example, a "Master Mode" for TF's and Story Arcs that triggers Elite Boss spawns, spawns with incredible defenses unless they get CC'd, spawns that require specific positional attacks to hit since they have great def vs other positions, etc. Something sthat encourages players to use more of their toolkits than just the best damaging abilities. 

So as I read, an additional difficulty option. Thanks for clarifying.