Game Balance & The Endgame

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I feel like this may be true of a couple of assault sets, but IMO is not true of the archetype overall. Earth, Electric, Dark, Psi, and Radioactive Assault don't even have a Tier 3 damage scale ranged blast to work with. They fare very poorly in AV fights, except perhaps for Psi being able to debuff regen.

 

Hm. I've soloed AVs with all kinds of ATs, and I think that there is a fundamental disagreement here. You see... WHY do Doms need an all-ranged attack cycle to solo an AV? Because they should do it the same way as Blasters or Defenders, who DO have a full ranged attack set, and far better passive defenses? I assure you, it can be done... I beat the Kronos Titan with a Plant/Savage at range, but it's still a case of using the wrong tactics just because it's the standard tactics for squishies. However, in many cases, Doms just have other options:
Mind and Dark can perma-Confuse an AV, and use melee attacks. I just used Mind/Nrg against an AV this weekend, actually... the AV never shot at me. And /Nrg needs Total Focus in the attack cycle. But you know what? While it was slower than a Blaster with capped Ranged Defense and a Sustain, that Blaster will get hit occasionally. And hopes that it doesn't get RNG'd to get hit twice in quick succession, because a lot of AVs will 2-shot you. The Mind/Nrg never had to worry.

Ele/Earth will be in melee with Seismic Smash, because adding its Hold Mag will allow perma-Holding AVs.

Fire/Psy is in melee, because it can perma-Hold AVs.
Dark/Savg will perma-Confuse so it can add in a melee attack.

Held/Confused AVs won't kill pets, so at this point, adding in the DPS from pets helps make up for lower damage and losing DPS by using a Hold or Confuse a lot.

 

In the end, a LOT of Dom builds can solo AVs, but not necessarily the same way as almost all Blasters, who depend on Ranged Defenses plus Sustain. (note that the Plant/Savage kind of did that, with Spirit Tree being a kind of Sustain power). Doms do have some damage issues largely related to the fact that they mix melee and ranged into just nine powers, but I don't think that it's a scalar problem for them. And, to be honest, Homecoming did that Assault set balance pass last year that really went most of the way towards solving their issues, with a lot of attack animations sped up, and after that I don't really see a set that I feel is severely underperforming.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

So do you feel a ranged Dominator attack chain that incorporates a snipe is hitting with the same strength as Stalker, Blaster, Brute, etc attacks? I would expect, on balance, that a Blaster would hit harder than the Dominator. 

 

With a set like Dark Assault you've got a snipe and then what essentially consists of a T1 blast and 2 T2s. The developers did normalize the damage to animation time. But despite a decent damage modifier, there are no crits, no containment, no rage, no defiance, few debuffs (except Sleet, see my note above about particular builds), mostly no Build Up. The snipe does have a nice crack to it and it helps quite a bit. But it is also true that your best DPS is in your melee attacks which you are mostly pushed out of using for safety reasons. The issue for Dominators, more than their damage scales, has always been the circumstances where they are able to unleash them. It's a hefty albatross. 

I think sometimes people paint too rosy a picture of Dominator survivability. Two hits from an AV can drop them and they have more to lose than most classes, because dropped Domination is very punishing.

You have to include their pet damage too when comparing total dps to other classes. Their survivability is intentionally variable. In AV fights, yes, they rely more on teammate buffs and tanking. That is by design.

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

What is the explanation of so many people having this fatalistic lack of faith in the HC devs, who have repeatedly demonstrated their competence, wisdom, and love of the game?
 

I don't think it has anything to do with the HC team per se.  I think in general it is not uncommon that people fear the worst.  Given that so little has been said, that leaves a lot to the imagination to a group of people that indulge in imagination, so it is quite the recipe.  

 

People have longer memories for the things that go bad like Energy Melee nerfs, and many were let down with hopes of fixing Rage towards the end of last year, but still nada.  It all seems like standard fare. 

[Coyote]

4 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

So do you feel a ranged Dominator attack chain that incorporates a snipe is hitting with the same strength as Stalker, Blaster, Brute, etc attacks? I would expect, on balance, that a Blaster would hit harder than the Dominator. 

 

Blasters hit significantly harder than Dominators (as an average) in all situations: burst single-target, sustained single-target, burst AoE, sustained AoE. I don't really have a problem with this, Damage is the reason for Blasters. I really don't see a reason to compare Dominator damage versus the AT that should be tops in damage, and find Dominators lacking because they don't match up. Should any AT match up to Blasters?

I think they look fine compared to Defenders and Corruptors, or to Controllers in single-target (obviously, Controllers generally are the worst at AoE), or most VEATs or EATs (except Crabberminds, but those also have problems in AT fights or against high-AoE Bosses). Looking at that, I don't necessarily claim that they are perfectly balanced, but IMO any buffs to their damage really belong only to the melee attacks (to give them a worthy reward for the risk).

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

You have to include their pet damage too when comparing total dps to other classes. Their survivability is intentionally variable. In AV fights, yes, they rely more on teammate buffs and tanking. That is by design.

 

Hmm. I definitely do not consider the pet damage to be substantial. A couple of the pets are pretty durable. Gremlins, Jack, Fire Imps though are going to get smoked by the first one or two AoEs. You're fighting an enemy you can't control and you don't have any way to protect the pet.

I run an Elec/Psi Dom with 70% S/L resist, 38% Defense to Slash/Leth/Melee/Ranged with Barrier Tier 4 and Drain Psyche to boost my regen. I mostly don't melee with most +level AVs other than to run and drain psyche and then leap back. Two or three hits can drop me (though it depends on the AV). 

[Leogunner]

7 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I didn't lose grip on context. 

I believe you did because...

 

7 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

What you fail to understand is what IOs offer.  IOs open up so many more build opportunities and variety.  IOs open up more varied choices from picking sets knowing that you can cover annoying holes or effects like egregious KB. 

Nobody said IOs didn't do that, in fact people can still praise IOs for the good that they do while pointing to the imbalance they create...like with KB IOs and how it makes Acrobatics need buffing because of the ease of replacing it.  Maybe if the IO had reduced KB protection, were unique or had some kind of drawback like reducing KB resistance in turn, but as is, it actually reduces some variety of build diversity in regards to power picks for reducing KB since an IO is just the better alternative overall...

 

7 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Crying that IOs messed things up is silly.  And you can play with out IOs with others that don't have IOs and you can have your vaunted team balance back, so your CC is more valuable, or your heals, or whatever.

And to the context of the previous quotes you're being obtuse about, sitting here boldface telling people it's silly to talk about something you don't agree with while hypocritically defending the reverse with passive-aggressive jabs just shows you have no principles and really just means the best course is to just do what you do and throw jabs right back over and over.  Of course, I don't really have that kind of boredom but maybe things on my end will dry up and I won't have anything better to do so who knows.

 

8 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

yeah my Doms do great for Doms and I'd bet better than yours as well, but they still are a bottom tier AT, in that they aren't a force multiplier, virtually no debuffs or buffs, quasi useless pets, less survivability that every other AT really (more or less on par with Blasters), etc. etc.  If you actually read some of the earlier posts (like this one) you could have been more familiar with the context and the basis for minor buffs, but you must have been too busy shot gunning a response to do that I suppose.  Classic, accuse others of what you do yourself. 

Well buckle up, buttercup.  Someone has to be "not the best" and until Corruptors are completely outpacing Dom, then they are where they need to be.  Until the game's difficulty actually warrants a reprisal of roles (due to changes in balance and/or setting options), there isn't much need for anyone to get a boost outside of specific powers/sets (and maybe Sent if they ever get their inherent changed).  Not having the best damage while having extremely comprehensive aggro control and mez protection is the price paid.  

 

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

I could be wrong, but I doubt it will be removed. I expect the duration of momentum will be increased to make it more usable at low level when you don't have many attacks or much recharge and the damage dropped a bit to compensate.

If I were re-evaluating the momentum mechanic, I'd probably extend momentum's duration and just have 2 of the attacks "expend" momentum.  Just give the player more control over when they are going to go on that slow-mode but at a cost.  

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Blasters hit significantly harder than Dominators (as an average) in all situations: burst single-target, sustained single-target, burst AoE, sustained AoE. I don't really have a problem with this, Damage is the reason for Blasters. I really don't see a reason to compare Dominator damage versus the AT that should be tops in damage, and find Dominators lacking because they don't match up. Should any AT match up to Blasters?

I think they look fine compared to Defenders and Corruptors, or to Controllers in single-target (obviously, Controllers generally are the worst at AoE), or most VEATs or EATs (except Crabberminds, but those also have problems in AT fights or against high-AoE Bosses). Looking at that, I don't necessarily claim that they are perfectly balanced, but IMO any buffs to their damage really belong only to the melee attacks (to give them a worthy reward for the risk).

 

I'm not even necessarily convinced the issue is damage per se. The issue to me is that you have this DPS class that can't DPS against the main targets where you really need the DPS. I don't think Dominators need to be able to control AVs easily, but its kinda like putting Scrappers in a situation where everytime they fought an AV their armor turned off.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Hm. I've soloed AVs with all kinds of ATs, and I think that there is a fundamental disagreement here. You see... WHY do Doms need an all-ranged attack cycle to solo an AV? Because they should do it the same way as Blasters or Defenders, who DO have a full ranged attack set, and far better passive defenses? I assure you, it can be done... I beat the Kronos Titan with a Plant/Savage at range, but it's still a case of using the wrong tactics just because it's the standard tactics for squishies. However, in many cases, Doms just have other options:
Mind and Dark can perma-Confuse an AV, and use melee attacks. I just used Mind/Nrg against an AV this weekend, actually... the AV never shot at me. And /Nrg needs Total Focus in the attack cycle. But you know what? While it was slower than a Blaster with capped Ranged Defense and a Sustain, that Blaster will get hit occasionally. And hopes that it doesn't get RNG'd to get hit twice in quick succession, because a lot of AVs will 2-shot you. The Mind/Nrg never had to worry.

Ele/Earth will be in melee with Seismic Smash, because adding its Hold Mag will allow perma-Holding AVs.

Fire/Psy is in melee, because it can perma-Hold AVs.
Dark/Savg will perma-Confuse so it can add in a melee attack.

Held/Confused AVs won't kill pets, so at this point, adding in the DPS from pets helps make up for lower damage and losing DPS by using a Hold or Confuse a lot.

 

In the end, a LOT of Dom builds can solo AVs, but not necessarily the same way as almost all Blasters, who depend on Ranged Defenses plus Sustain. (note that the Plant/Savage kind of did that, with Spirit Tree being a kind of Sustain power). Doms do have some damage issues largely related to the fact that they mix melee and ranged into just nine powers, but I don't think that it's a scalar problem for them. And, to be honest, Homecoming did that Assault set balance pass last year that really went most of the way towards solving their issues, with a lot of attack animations sped up, and after that I don't really see a set that I feel is severely underperforming.

It's not that it can't be done (that is not in question), a Smart car can get you from point A to point B but not in a similar fashion as a Tesla model S P100D.  

 

And also, what are you playing at +0/1?  

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Hmm. I definitely do not consider the pet damage to be substantial. A couple of the pets are pretty durable. Gremlins, Jack, Fire Imps though are going to get smoked by the first one or two AoEs. You're fighting an enemy you can't control and you don't have any way to protect the pet.

I run an Elec/Psi Dom with 70% S/L resist, 38% Defense to Slash/Leth/Melee/Ranged with Barrier Tier 4 and Drain Psyche to boost my regen. I mostly don't melee with most +level AVs other than to run and drain psyche and then leap back. Two or three hits can drop me (though it depends on the AV). 

The game is not, never has been, and should not be balanced around the ability to solo AVs. On teams your pets benefit from teammate buffs and heals and do quite a good amount of damage (obviously it varies by set, that's a different issue).

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

The game is not, never has been, and should not be balanced around the ability to solo AVs. On teams your pets benefit from teammate buffs and heals and do quite a good amount of damage (obviously it varies by set, that's a different issue).

 

I'm not talking about just soloing. Solo, in a team, on an iTrial. AVs are not worth approaching. There are a couple I can handle, but these things are built to punch through Brute and Tanker armor. No amount of IOs will make it survivable over the long haul. There's a handful of AVs I can handle if they the tank keeps aggro, but if they have any kind of PBAoE attack it can turn into lights out.  

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

You have to include their pet damage too when comparing total dps to other classes. Their survivability is intentionally variable. In AV fights, yes, they rely more on teammate buffs and tanking. That is by design.

pet damage is highly unreliable.  Except for Poo and the Hound they die too easily.  They also get distracted on minor targets.  And as the difficulty increases their effectiveness greatly diminishes.  On the teams that I run on pets are pointless because the pets can't keep up, and if they do they die.  Add to that they are hard to keep track, idk know what their health is, how many are alive if any, etc.

[oedipus_tex]

It's funny to see FUBAR and I agree in this thread because we have some very divergent opinions about other issues with Doms. 🙂However I'd mostly agree with him about pet damage.

 

Mind doesn't have a pet.

 

Electric and Fire have pets that usually won't survive a fight versus a 16 pack of enemies. They are as likely to contribute damage to the fight as to run off and aggro the other side of the map. I don't actually have Gremlins anymore in my Electric build because they don't contribute a whole lot. Versus a lone AV they'll normally survive a couple of AoEs if it's a team setting.

 

Gravity, Earth pretty solid. Dark mostly too. These pets might actually survive long enough to contribute damage and their AI is less likely to go rogue.

 

Jack Frost and Fly Trap are kind of in the middle. 

[Coyote]

26 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

It's not that it can't be done (that is not in question), a Smart car can get you from point A to point B but not in a similar fashion as a Tesla model S P100D.  

 

And also, what are you playing at +0/1?  

 

Are you sure you have a point here, or are you just trying to prove Leo's point instead? Mighty generous of you, gotta admit.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's funny to see FUBAR and I agree in this thread because we have some very divergent opinions about other issues with Doms. 🙂However I'd mostly agree with him about pet damage.

 

Mind doesn't have a pet.

 

Electric and Fire have pets that usually won't survive a fight versus a 16 pack of enemies. They are as likely to contribute damage to the fight as to run off and aggro the other side of the map. I don't actually have Gremlins anymore in my Electric build because they don't contribute a whole lot. Versus a lone AV they'll normally survive a couple of AoEs if it's a team setting.

 

Gravity, Earth pretty solid. Dark mostly too. These pets might actually survive long enough to contribute damage and their AI is less likely to go rogue.

 

Jack Frost and Fly Trap are kind of in the middle. 

And yet the Electric, Fire, and Plant pets are some of the best in the game for all Non-AV content. There are of course Pet IOs that can improve their survivability, and of course there's  Destiny.

So what you're saying is that some pets are great in some situations and others great in other situations and not all sets are good at the same thing. That's another aspect of game balance.

Jack Frost could use a buff though, sure. XD

[oedipus_tex]

Just now, Wavicle said:

And yet the Electric, Fire, and Plant pets are some of the best in the game for all Non-AV content. There are of course Pet IOs that can improve their survivability, and of course there's  Destiny.

So what you're saying is that some pets are great in some situations and others great in other situations and not all sets are good at the same thing. That's another aspect of game balance.

Jack Frost could use a buff though, sure. XD

 

 

What I mean is that a Dominator bringing a pet along in no way makes up for their anemic overall performance. 

[Coyote]

10 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

However I'd mostly agree with him about pet damage.

 

Pets are generally fine soloing because you should be Controlling most of the mobs. If you're soloing as a lower team count, then you should be able to keep the pets safe a good amount of the time. If you're soloing as a large team count, you should be using a lot of AoEs, so generally you'll keep aggro and keep them safe, in addition to AoE controls.

 

On teams, it's a lot hard to keep them alive on your own, though it depends on the team. Some teams will run multiple Barriers, or enough AoE defense/resist buffing to keep them alive, and some won't. I would say they're situational on teams rather than automatically useless. Just because there are some teams where they get pasted within a spawn or two every time you summon them, doesn't mean that they can't be useful in other teams. For one power and some reasonable set bonus options, I think they're worth taking and generally using, but I agree that there are times when they're not useful.

[Wavicle]

Just now, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

What I mean is that a Dominator bringing a pet along in no way makes up for their anemic overall performance. 

Except that their OVERALL performance is that they are monsters. Not anemic.

[skoryy]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Wow 59 pages! I think that speaks highly to the enthusiasm of the community.

More the enthusiasm of a handful of posters to prove someone was wrong on the internet.

[Coyote]

Just now, skoryy said:

More the enthusiasm of a handful of posters to prove someone was wrong on the internet.

 

It's more of a public service, really. I mean, if I delayed my dinner today so I could show people the errors of their mistakes, it was for the good of society 😄

[FUBARczar]

 

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Nobody said IOs didn't do that, in fact people can still praise IOs for the good that they do while pointing to the imbalance they create

this started with a poster stating, "For many reasons, I would love it if IO sets were simply removed from the game. " not that they are good but presented new imbalances or whatever but you didn't bother to go back and read what was said before apparently.  

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

And to the context of the previous quotes you're being obtuse about, sitting here boldface telling people it's silly to talk about something you don't agree with while hypocritically defending the reverse with passive-aggressive jabs just shows you have no principles and really just means the best course is to just do what you do and throw jabs right back over and over.  Of course, I don't really have that kind of boredom but maybe things on my end will dry up and I won't have anything better to do so who knows.

It's not that their differing viewpoint was silly because I think differently.  Fretting over IOs which are not mandatory is silly.  It's silly because a player can opt out.  I have even seen people like T the Tank on Excel Vet lvl 100 with ZERO IO bonuses.  Play the game how ever you want. 

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Well buckle up, buttercup.  Someone has to be "not the best" and until Corruptors are completely outpacing Dom, then they are where they need to be.  Until the game's difficulty actually warrants a reprisal of roles (due to changes in balance and/or setting options), there isn't much need for anyone to get a boost outside of specific powers/sets (and maybe Sent if they ever get their inherent changed).  Not having the best damage while having extremely comprehensive aggro control and mez protection is the price paid.  

Corruptors do completely outpace Doms as I and many others have observed over and over again here.  Sentinels on the other hand...there's your bottom feeder.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Are you sure you have a point here, or are you just trying to prove Leo's point instead? Mighty generous of you, gotta admit.

yeah there is a point, just because they can do the same thing doesn't mean they are equal.  A dom can solo an AV sure, but it will take so much longer to do it.  

 

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Except that their OVERALL performance is that they are monsters. Not anemic.

You keep saying this... can you please share what we are getting wrong?  Do you have some data?  Some anecdotes at least?

[oedipus_tex]

I think it's worth bringing up that when Dominators were created, nukes were terrible, so not getting one as actually a plus, it meant you got a slot for a more useful power. Now however nukes are clearing mobs so fast that it makes some of the Dominator controls seem silly. Their AoE Hold has a 240 second recharge. Most nukes recharge in 145 seconds. If you're on a team with 2 Blasters, 1 Defender and 1 Corruptor there will be 4 nukes in rotation. Plus whatever Judgments are going off. No wonder it feels like controls are so much less relevant now. 🙂

[Coyote]

29 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

just because they can do the same thing doesn't mean they are equal.  A dom can solo an AV sure, but it will take so much longer to do it.  

 

Yes, but time is only one measurement. I would expect a Blaster to solo AVs faster than a Dominator, but if the Dom can perma-Hold or perma-Confuse the AV, then it does it more safely. It seems to me, that trading killing speed for safety IS a fair trade-off. Assuming, of course, a fair trade... 5% increased safety vs double the speed may not be fair, but surely there is some point where it would be. So the great safety of perma-mezzing is certainly worth some level of killing speed trade-off.

Also, ironically, the greatest difference in damage is caused by mixing in a low-damage Hold or Confuse even with a +Damage proc slotted into it. But that Hold/Confuse is needed for safety. So it's a deliberate trade-off. But Doms can solo many AVs where Blasters couldn't, while Blasters can solo some of the same AVs much faster. Is this really unbalanced?

[Coyote]

30 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think it's worth bringing up that when Dominators were created, nukes were terrible, so not getting one as actually a plus, it meant you got a slot for a more useful power. Now however nukes are clearing mobs so fast that it makes some of the Dominator controls seem silly. Their AoE Hold has a 240 second recharge. Most nukes recharge in 145 seconds. If you're on a team with 2 Blasters, 1 Defender and 1 Corruptor there will be 4 nukes in rotation. Plus whatever Judgments are going off. No wonder it feels like controls are so much less relevant now. 🙂

 

Absolutely. The proliferation of damage in the game, for multiple reasons, has made debuffing and control far less useful in the end game. I think this is what needs addressing, not saying "well, if damage is king, let's just balance ATs by giving everyone more damage".

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Yes, but time is only one measurement. I would expect a Blaster to solo AVs faster than a Dominator, but if the Dom can perma-Hold or perma-Confuse the AV, then it does it more safely. It seems to me, that trading killing speed for safety IS a fair trade-off. Assuming, of course, a fair trade... 5% increased safety vs double the speed may not be fair, but surely there is some point where it would be. So the great safety of perma-mezzing is certainly worth some level of killing speed trade-off.

Also, ironically, the greatest difference in damage is caused by mixing in a low-damage Hold or Confuse even with a +Damage proc slotted into it. But that Hold/Confuse is needed for safety. So it's a deliberate trade-off. But Doms can solo many AVs where Blasters couldn't, while Blasters can solo some of the same AVs much faster. Is this really unbalanced?

It's not just mixing in a low damage hold.  When I run shortman +4/8 MoITFs w/o inspirations I am playing like a blapper, looking for DPS for the best time.  And I have completed a 4-man +4/8 MoITF w/o inspirations with enemies buffed on my Fire/Psi  (46:36 Blaster @EV(BR/Dev) Controller @Raw(Dark/Rad) Defender @dayday(Time/Fire) Dominator @Mr.FUBAR(Fire/Psi)).  It's alsonot about perma holding, b/c even with 4 Doms on +4/8 the AVs don't stay held.  And there are lots of mobs around the AV.  Also the hold doesn't have to be low damage, because the Holds proc really well.  😜