Gravity, Controller vs Dominator?

[ceto555]

Hello all, 

 

I heard in game that Grav on Controllers is much better than Grav on Dom's. When I asked them to elaborate I got no answer. Is it true? If so, how is it better on Controllers compared to Doms?

 

Thanks

[oedipus_tex]

Basically in most cases, most of the time, this is true.

 

Gravity is a set that trades away some of its control capability for extra damage in powers like Lift and Propel. On a Controller, which is normally a low damage archetype, this is a bonus. Not only does it mean your damage is better than it would be with another set, but because Controllers get x2 damage from Containment, you deal much more damage than most other types of Controllers, not just a small amount. In fact, you deal more than most Defenders in single target. And with Propel and Lift specifically, with Containment, you actually deal more damage than a Dominator, even before taking into account additional damage from -Resist or +Damage a Controller can get their hands on.

 

This isn't such a hot tradeoff for the Dominator though. They get an Assault set that does damage, trading away the benefits of a Buff/Debuff set. This isn't to say Gravity Dominators are unplayable. They're just losing out on huge benefits of multiplication effects of the Buff/Debuff set for relatively minute gains. Sets that mimic aspects of an Assault set often work best, particularly /Storm, because with /Storm you can even match Dominators at their ability to mezz bosses with an AoE stun. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Hjarki]

9 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Not only does it mean your damage is better than it would be with another set, but because Controllers get x2 damage from Containment, you deal much more damage than most other types of Controllers, not just a small amount. In fact, you deal more than most Defenders in single target.

Remember that Defenders also receive attacks better than basic attacks, while Controllers don't. So that 66 damage Ring of Fire is better than a 36 damage Flares, but it doesn't keep pace with a 98 damage Blaze. Coupled with the fact that Controllers often have to work to establish/maintain Containment, the non-pet damage advantage is most illusionary.

 

In terms of Gravity, I'd say it has a few features to recommend it:

• Singularity. While no Dominator pets are going to live forever if you ramp up the difficulty high enough, Singularity will last longer than virtually any other pets. Its inherent durability coupled with its control-centric nature makes it a better choice than other pets whose damage is mostly theoretical because they're dead on the ground long before they can deal it. The ranged nature of the pet also means it stays close to home and doesn't chase enemies to its inevitable doom.
• Wormhole. While everyone can get a version of this power with the Teleportation pool these days, this is still by far the superior. It also works better with Dominators due to the double mag Disorient. For a melee-centric Dominator, this is often all the protection you need against large spawns (dangerous single target enemies are another story, but no Dominator is particularly good there).
• Lift/Propel. There are a variety of Dominator sets that just don't have enough (decent) single target damage and these can help.

While the slotting options can be limited with Gravity, I'd argue it's a strong choice for a melee-centric Dominator.

[oedipus_tex]

13 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

While the slotting options can be limited with Gravity, I'd argue it's a strong choice for a melee-centric Dominator.

Hear me out. Lift does close to or more damage than many Dominator melee attacks, has 100% chance to knock up, and can be used at range. It's also available from level 1. Because of Containment it also does more damage on a Controller than a Dominator. There is a theoretical Dominator with excellent AoE damage that might best the Controller in that department, but most Dominators don't have excellent AoE damage. The one Dominator I can think of that might pull even with a Controller would be Grav/Psi with perma Drain Psyche if you don't care about team buffs.

It's still playable, because you can still kill stuff with it. In fact you might even find some situations where you do slightly more damage than the equivalent Controller. But you've left on the table the huge advantages of a Buff set like Cold, Storm, Kinetics, Radiation, Dark, or Trick Arrow for mediocre (at best) gains. I'll never tell anyone not to play something if they are set on it, but in this case the Dominator so clearly underperforms the equivalent Controller that I just can't see myself rolling a Gravity Dominator again.

Edited February 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

Controllers also have access to better position-based secondaries, so throwing down mobs into a kill zone with Wormhole is a lot better than just clumping them up like a Dominator would. Double Trip Mines, Poison Gas Trap, Caltrops, Seeker Drones, and Acid Mortar make for a much hotter landing for the mobs than just a set of AoE attacks from a Dominator secondary. Storm also benefits greatly from bunching mobs up for Tornado/Lightning Storm.

[oedipus_tex]

13 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Controllers also have access to better position-based secondaries, so throwing down mobs into a kill zone with Wormhole is a lot better than just clumping them up like a Dominator would. Double Trip Mines, Poison Gas Trap, Caltrops, Seeker Drones, and Acid Mortar make for a much hotter landing for the mobs than just a set of AoE attacks from a Dominator secondary. Storm also benefits greatly from bunching mobs up for Tornado/Lightning Storm.

 

Agreed. This is partly why a Grav/Psi Dom might be competitive. You can yank things to you and vampire health and endurance from them. Psi Assault has attrocious ranged blast damage and stands to gain from Lift/Propel.

I had briefly toyed with a theoretical Grav/Martial Dom on the theory that Grav could benefit from Envenomed Blades buffing Lift/Propel. Then realized that's no different from Fulcrum Shift or Freezing Rain buffing debuffing its damage and abandoned the idea. The Grav/Martial Dom actually will have better AoE damage because of Caltrops and Trick Shot, and having a snipe is always a plus, but when I consider that means losing all the benefits a Buff set brings the tradeoff is just too high to justify to me. 

Controllers also automatically get Containment damage against incarnate bosses (some of them? all of them? haven't explored this). Not sure how many enemies this actually applies to, but since Lift/Propel with Containment do more damage for the Controller than a Dominator gets needless to say the Controller is by many millions of light years the better suited for that type of encounter.

Edited February 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Agreed. This is partly why a Grav/Psi Dom might be competitive. You can yank things to you and vampire health and endurance from them.

 

Just to note with running a Fire/Psy (End hungry due to running Hot Feet)... the only reason to bunch up mobs is for the Regeneration bonus. Hitting 2 is enough to conver Endurance for basically anything, and hitting just 1 target pretty much solves Endurance issues (pushes it to over 4 EPS without any accolades and with only 1 slot in Stamina... if I add 1-2 slots and got some Accolades, it may break 5 EPPs, and that's also with Drain Psyche slotted with a full Heal set). Regeneration helps, but honestly, as a Dom you're in charge and not taking much damage, or you aggroed another spawn without having an AoE mez ready, got him with defense debuffs, and died too fast for Regeneration to help. The argument about "Psy ranged ST damage sucks" is a good one, though, cause it does.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Hear me out. Lift does close to or more damage than many Dominator melee attacks, has 100% chance to knock up, and can be used at range. It's also available from level 1. Because of Containment it also does more damage on a Controller than a Dominator. There is a theoretical Dominator with excellent AoE damage that might best the Controller in that department, but most Dominators don't have excellent AoE damage. The one Dominator I can think of that might pull even with a Controller would be Grav/Psi with perma Drain Psyche if you don't care about team buffs.

If you're playing a Grav/* Controller, Lift under Containment is your highest single target dpa. If you're playing a Grav/Psi Dominator, Lift is your lowest single target dpa - it's the attack you use when your 'real' attacks are on cooldown. So the fact that your Controller does about 15% more dpa with this attack while using Containment isn't particularly relevant to the overall dps of the attack chain.

 

Likewise, complaining about bad Dominator AE is odd given that Controller AE is even worse.

 

More importantly, you're not really arguing that Gravity is bad for a Dominator so much as you're arguing that Dominators are bad. The only Control set that works better on a Dominator than a Controller is probably Mind - and that's only because it's marginally less useless for an AT that mainly uses the primary to mule set bonuses. Gravity certainly isn't the worst Control set for Dominators (looking at you Electric) and you can actually use the powers in a meaningful way on certain builds.

 

[oedipus_tex]

33 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

If you're playing a Grav/* Controller, Lift under Containment is your highest single target dpa. If you're playing a Grav/Psi Dominator, Lift is your lowest single target dpa - it's the attack you use when your 'real' attacks are on cooldown. 

 

 

If you're playing a Gravity Dominator, in most cases you should probably take Lift and skip Propel. You come out slightly ahead of the comparable Controller... who then fills the gap in his attack chain with Propel, grabs an entire secondary powerset devoted to Buff/Debuff, and still ends up with single target damage very close to if not better than the Dominator when the chips are down. The mediocre AoE the Dominator brings doesn't cover the gap in performance. There are some edge cases where the Dominator does a'ight. Gravity on Dominators falls into that "at least it's playable" category where Force Field and the old Energy Melee reside, ok if you never compare it to anything. The best I can say for it is at least it is better than it was before it was revisited toward the end of life of the old game.

 

 

[Hjarki]

26 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

If you're playing a Gravity Dominator, in most cases you should probably take Lift and skip Propel. You come out slightly ahead of the comparable Controller... who then fills the gap in his attack chain with Propel, grabs an entire secondary powerset devoted to Buff/Debuff, and still ends up with single target damage very close to if not better than the Dominator when the chips are down. The mediocre AoE the Dominator brings doesn't cover the gap in performance. There are some edge cases where the Dominator does a'ight. Gravity on Dominators falls into that "at least it's playable" category where Force Field and the old Energy Melee reside, ok if you never compare it to anything. The best I can say for it is at least it is better than it was before it was revisited toward the end of life of the old game.

For any build, you need to start with "what do I want to play?". If your constraint is that you want to play Gravity Control, then you're probably better off with a Controller. If your constraint is that you want to play a Dominator, then Gravity Control is a strong choice in certain cases. But I wouldn't put Gravity Control amongst the list of 'top builds' in any iteration.

[Coyote]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

But I wouldn't put Gravity Control amongst the list of 'top builds' in any iteration.

 

I would, but only with /Storm or /Traps. The ability to turn small-radius AoEs from the secondary to reliably hitting all 5 targets that they can, or to turn 2xTrip Mine plus Poison Gas Trap into a 800+ damage nuke every spawn by combining them with Wormhole is a huge benefit.

In both cases, it's really Gravity leveraging the secondary, rather than Gravity Control itself being top, but sometimes that's how really good builds work. You still end up with good AoE, good ST, and team support... it's just not really burst damage. Well, other than 2 Trip Mines and Poison Gas Trap going off counting as "burst", but the setup time is so long that it's a different type of burst damage.

[VV]

My question is kind of the other way, are there any primaries that work out better with a Dominator than a Controller? And, let's keep this to soloing because the force-multiplying of buffs/debuffs makes Controllers clearly superior in all group situations. I have run quite a few of both and after much trying, have become quite unimpressed with Dominators at all. I do have a Dark/Savage Dom that is fun, but I definitely would not call it top-tier in power level.

 

For example, I changed my Plant/Rad Dom to a Plant/Dark Troll and holy cows. The troller grinds through stuff faster than the dom ever did and without anywhere near the danger. To me, one of the real issues with Doms is that they cannot decide if they are ranged or melee. Having a bit of both seems inefficient. I dunno, maybe it's something else. I really thought I would like to play control/attack because I am not really a healer/buffer type of player. "Lock 'em and clock 'em," you know. But for some reason, Doms always feel particularly weak to me. 

 

That being said, my three main Trollers are /storm, /dark, /traps, soooo... I'm kind of cheating here by only taking the best of the debuff/damage secondaries. Also, my feeling is that procs have been a great leveler here.

 

Anyway, the question is, what primaries are better on Dominators than Controllers?

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, VV said:

My question is kind of the other way, are there any primaries that work out better with a Dominator than a Controller? And, let's keep this to soloing because the force-multiplying of buffs/debuffs makes Controllers clearly superior in all group situations. I have run quite a few of both and after much trying, have become quite unimpressed with Dominators at all. I do have a Dark/Savage Dom that is fun, but I definitely would not call it top-tier in power level.

 

For example, I changed my Plant/Rad Dom to a Plant/Dark Troll and holy cows. The troller grinds through stuff faster than the dom ever did and without anywhere near the danger. To me, one of the real issues with Doms is that they cannot decide if they are ranged or melee. Having a bit of both seems inefficient. I dunno, maybe it's something else. I really thought I would like to play control/attack because I am not really a healer/buffer type of player. "Lock 'em and clock 'em," you know. But for some reason, Doms always feel particularly weak to me. 

 

That being said, my three main Trollers are /storm, /dark, /traps, soooo... I'm kind of cheating here by only taking the best of the debuff/damage secondaries. Also, my feeling is that procs have been a great leveler here.

 

Anyway, the question is, what primaries are better on Dominators than Controllers?

 

 

 

 

Most primaries more or less break even when compared Dominator vs Controller. It depends on what you value: support vs a more direct approach. The Dominator is often the better soloist and usually has more independence. On a league, the Controller is usually a better choice than a Dominator. But it depends. 

Mind Control for example is clearly better on Dominators. I don't consider Mind Control the strongest Dominator primary, but it is way better than Mind Control on Controllers. 

Low damage elemental Control sets like Electric, Earth, and Ice also benefit a lot from having an Assault set to supply their missing damage. That's because even with the bonuses from the Support set they still usually can't kick up enough damage to compete. These aren't strictly better or worse than Dominators, altho in some cases the damage is so low some people may not even consider these control sets on a Controller

 

Dark Control is about as middle of the road as you can get. Not great damage on a Controller, still good on a Dominator.

 

Plant is Plant and deserves its own essay. It's a leader on both archetypes.

Fire Control is debatable. You can make a pretty mean Fire Dominator. The question I always have about Fire Dominators though is why bother when you can roll a Blaster and get a better version of the key power, Hot Feet and still get Bonfire? Controllers are mostly immune to this comparison. Fire Control on Dominators really did not make out well with the recent Blaster buffs IMO. That said, Mag 6 Flashfire and mezz protection in dom mode isn't nothing so the Dominator might work out for some people.

Gravity meanwhile is opposite of Mind Control, much better on the Controller than Dominator. This isn't to say some Dominators don't deal more damage than Controllers, just that for the modest amount of extra damage you trade away a huge amount of flexibility. Gravity Controllers do not struggle to solo like Mind, Electric, Earth, or Ice Controllers do so transitioning to a Dominator provides less lift.  

Edited February 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

I would say Ice is better on a Dominator. You can proc out the Sleep for some damage and run it at Mag6, so it shuts down the spawn including Bosses. You can then run in, wait a few ticks for Arctic Air to turn some to your side, and then begin the combat. And you get mez protection to keep AA active, and you get more damage to help with a low-damage primary.

 

Earth also works well, although having a secondary to buff Animate Stone so it can tank AVs is something to consider. But only for AV soloing. Otherwise, on a Dom you can Stun everyone, then run in and begin the damage. Works nicely with /Dark as you can stack Earthquake with other -ToHit debuffs once Stalagmites wears off, works nicely with Earth Assault as you can run Force Feedback in both Fissure and Tremor and get Stalagmites and Volcanic Gasses up faster. It's a good Controller set also, so I don't know if I'd put it as better.

 

I think Electric is clearly more damage than the above two due to a better AoE Confuse, so I think it's fine as Controller. But it's quite good for a Dominator, as it gives you back Endurance... and Doms are pretty Endurance hungry. It makes Earth Assault feel a bit less mean to the blue bar than it really is.

[VV]

21 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Most primaries more or less break even when compared Dominator vs Controller. It depends on what you value: support vs a more direct approach. The Dominator is often the better soloist and usually has more independence. On a league, the Controller is usually a better choice than a Dominator. But it depends. 

Mind Control for example is clearly better on Dominators. I don't consider Mind Control the strongest Dominator primary, but it is way better than Mind Control on Controllers. 

Low damage elemental Control sets like Electric, Earth, and Ice also benefit a lot from having an Assault set to supply their missing damage. That's because even with the bonuses from the Support set they still usually can't kick up enough damage to compete. These aren't strictly better or worse than Dominators, altho in some cases the damage is so low some people may not even consider these control sets on a Controller

 

Dark Control is about as middle of the road as you can get. Not great damage on a Controller, still good on a Dominator.

 

Plant is Plant and deserves its own essay. It's a leader on both archetypes.

Fire Control is debatable. You can make a pretty mean Fire Dominator. The question I always have about Fire Dominators though is why bother when you can roll a Blaster and get a better version of the key power, Hot Feet and still get Bonfire? Controllers are mostly immune to this comparison. Fire Control on Dominators really did not make out well with the recent Blaster buffs IMO. That said, Mag 6 Flashfire and mezz protection in dom mode isn't nothing so the Dominator might work out for some people.

Gravity meanwhile is opposite of Mind Control, much better on the Controller than Dominator. This isn't to say some Dominators don't deal more damage than Controllers, just that for the modest amount of extra damage you trade away a huge amount of flexibility. Gravity Controllers do not struggle to solo like Mind, Electric, Earth, or Ice Controllers do so transitioning to a Dominator provides less lift.  

Quoted for emphasis. This is one of the best analysis of this that I have seen.

[arcane]

I don’t care much about the Lift/Propel side of Gravity. Wormhole is the defining power, followed by Dimension Shift, and both synergize better with things like patch powers. That’s why I think they fit better with controllers - specifically those with a debuff oriented secondary.

[JnEricsonx]

On 2/7/2021 at 10:36 PM, oedipus_tex said:

 

Agreed. This is partly why a Grav/Psi Dom might be competitive. You can yank things to you and vampire health and endurance from them. Psi Assault has attrocious ranged blast damage and stands to gain from Lift/Propel.

I had briefly toyed with a theoretical Grav/Martial Dom on the theory that Grav could benefit from Envenomed Blades buffing Lift/Propel. Then realized that's no different from Fulcrum Shift or Freezing Rain buffing debuffing its damage and abandoned the idea. The Grav/Martial Dom actually will have better AoE damage because of Caltrops and Trick Shot, and having a snipe is always a plus, but when I consider that means losing all the benefits a Buff set brings the tradeoff is just too high to justify to me. 

Controllers also automatically get Containment damage against incarnate bosses (some of them? all of them? haven't explored this). Not sure how many enemies this actually applies to, but since Lift/Propel with Containment do more damage for the Controller than a Dominator gets needless to say the Controller is by many millions of light years the better suited for that type of encounter.

See also my Grav/Psi/Ice Dom.  I make them miserable.  Just depends on what order I want to start in.  Wormhole, then Sleet and Freezing Rain, or vice versa.