Tanker/Controller archetype?

[Leogunner]

11 hours ago, TheLeprechaun89 said:

Also I think people are forgetting the negatives from certain powersets.   The energy drain of toggles mixed with control powers that can sometimes be a huge end drain per activation.  Certain defensive sets don't have much MEZ defense and can easily get held and detoggled.  Or confused and suddenly the buffs and debuffs are switched making the team vulnerable.

There's also certain enemies that drain your end on their own that can detoggle you and turn off buffs or debuffs and put you and your team in vulnerable situations too.

It seem pretty fair and playable to me... 

Good luck trying to get any concrete discussion going since it will likely get bogged down with assumptions and opinionated "facts" rather than ever getting further to the more minute details like what the inherent would do and how its actual power layout looks like.

[TheLeprechaun89]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

If it has a Control Primary and an Armor Secondary there is no way it could be made "Fun". Effective, yes. Very survivable. But not "Fun".

 

Same for Defense/Support.

 

Don't care what values you tie to their defenses, controls, or support abilities, it would still suck a whole bag of rocks to try and play that character for any length of time.

 

Early on you wouldn't be able to do much of anything. Then in the late-mid range (35-45) you'd get -kind- of useful. And then in the Endgame you'd go back to being largely useless.

 

And I "Assume" they'd follow the current archetype paradigm because there's no reason to assume they'd completely discard all their current balancing setups -just- for this one archetype. Full on discard all the end cost, effectiveness, ,damage, and recharge time mechanics, Archetype Scalar Priorities based on Primary/Secondary Sets, and other levers.

 

Because there's no reason to assume they WOULD be willing to completely start over from scratch on balancing just to make this one incredibly slow and plodding archetype to function.

 

Why in the world do you assume they'd do all that just to try and wedge this archetype that can barely do anything but "Not Die" in the general direction of the NPCs into the game? And can you imagine how hilariously unfortunate it would be to try and take this behemoth into PvP?

 

Woof.

 

That's what I'm gonna call this AT 'til you come up with a different name. The Behemoth.

They have done that before with other AT's, it's literally just reducing certain values to balance out the AT,  The same thing that had to be done for ALL AT's multiple times from live to now. lol 
 

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, TheLeprechaun89 said:

They have done that before with other AT's, it's literally just reducing certain values to balance out the AT,  The same thing that had to be done for ALL AT's multiple times from live to now. lol 
 

 

Reducing values to balance the AT... okay...

 

If it's Control/Defense most of your attacks would be doing like 3-15 points of damage early on, with damage auras putting out somewhere in the 2-3 range per tick. (Assuming you -have- damage auras). Baseline, I mean. Assuming Controller damage scalars because it would be using Control Sets. Or do you want to give them Blaster's 1.125 damage scalar and bump that up to a whopping 5-23 damage and 3-4 damage per tick?

 

And hey, don't forget about the Design Formulas Leandro posted two years ago to show off the guidelines.

 

You'll still be doing incredibly low damage, or have outrageous recharge times and end costs to balance it out, which just back-loads your wait time while trying to defeat a group. Sure, they could "Reduce it" by making your control effects last a shorter period of time or your defense values lower, but unless the damage values are in the 1.85 range (A higher damage scalar than any AT in the game) you're still going to do -way- less damage than a Defender flings out because the baseline damage of the powers involved is so -incredibly- low.

 

And Defense/Support... uh... and the Damage comes from... where?

 

Enemies just -decide- to take a bunch of damage? 'Cause the /Support sets basically do 0 damage.

 

 

 

Now if you wanna suggest an entire new concept of attack/support set and defense/control set that's... Okay. Weird? But I'd be absolutely down to see a type of powerset that uses both active absolute and passive relative damage reduction. Don't care much about the attack/support, myself.

 

But if -that's- what you want, that is what you need to suggest. And design up a quickie example so that people know what you're talking about.

[MTeague]

"Fun" varies from person to person. I'm willing to accept this is a role the original poster belives would be fun in a team. 

 

But this really strikes me as something leftover from the early years of other MMO's.  The MainTank who holds threat like a champ but struggles with defeating anything on his own. Not because he's easily damaged, but just because his own damage output is so bad that what's a 2 minute win-or-die fight for a DPS class becomes a 12 minute epic battle for him solo. Each hit against him merely plinks against his armor, but because it takes him so long to kill they get like 2000 plinks in. And if a second group adds in, he'll be nibbled to death that much faster.

 

For the playerbase writ large, I think the Defense/Support version would be viewed less charitably than petless masterminds.  And the Control/Defense version.... even less than that. For good or ill, whether it's how you think the game should be or not, much of the playerbase holds fast to the idea that "Damage Is King". Support characters are often viewed through the lens of "Do you help us kill faster?"

 

Hence why Force Fields is in such a bad place right now.  Before IO's, Force Fields still shone strong because of the math behind "How much DPS does a dead Blaster do?" (yes, slightly more than 0, Rise of the Phoenix, Vengeance, Fallout, etc)  With IO's, and Incarnate powers, the original perceptions of what is valueable on a team vs not, has changed. Now there is still challenging content out there that will make players VERY glad for a few Controllers on their team. But you have to go hunting for it, and most players don't touch it, because the rewards for doing so are no better than doing the easy missions that they can overpower.  I consider this a damn shame.  I also have largely given up hope of this ever changing. 

 

I think this might have been an interesting pair of AT's back in 2004 / 2006.

I can't see how they survive in today's world.

 

But, the HC devs have surprised me several times. If these catch they're eye, and if they have an idea for how to make it work, who can say?

[Biff Pow]

Tankers were originally melee Controllers- they shared the 'elemental' themes and some mitigation powers. Controllers had pets, Tanker basically were the pet. They both did very little damage except for Fire, and have been improved a lot since those early days.

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

"Fun" varies from person to person. I'm willing to accept this is a role the original poster belives would be fun in a team. 

 

I think it's really going to depend on the inherent ability.

 

One thing cited as an issue was low damage and/or too much mitigation. You can alter that with a striking inherent ability. How that would work would depend on what the concept of the AT or the unique playstyle it's trying to accomplish. Like what if the target was a mid-range DPS DoT focused AT and utilize that Jekyll/Hyde concept where the inherent cut the control mag but quadrupled the DoTs by doubling the DoTs and doubling the duration.

 

It would still be low-damage but melt resilient foes rather efficiently for a time.

 

 

[HelBlaiz]

That's sort of the problem, lack of clarity in presentation. The OP mentions control powers, armor powers, and alludes to support powers as well. Later posts mention a hybrid style powerset. That I am curious to hear more about, and requested as such at the end of my second post.

 

In the name of constructive discourse, I'll try mulling over a support/control hybrid set.

 

A fire control/support set would start with the options of Ring of Fire at T1 and Char at T2, as every AT has to start with at least one attack power. T3 and T4 we can provide the option of a few support powers, Warmth and Fire Shield, I believe is the s/l Thermal power? After that Hot Feet seems good at T5, as armor sets would play well with pbaoe powers like that. T6 and T7 I'd make another couple support powers, Cauterize and Plasma Shield. Thaw and Forge could also work. T8 and T9 Im not sure about. Pet powers seem a bit much, but finding a satisfying capstone otherwise is hard. Flashfire and Cinders revalanced to be less terrible would give the set some hard AoE control, but may be too much. I mentioned in an earlier post that the set should focus on softer control so maybe Fire Cages and Bonfire? Capstones they are not.

Edited April 18, 2021 by HelBlaiz
autocorrect

[Alchemystic]

I believe an archetype that had both armor powers and buff/debuff powers was experimented with some time ago, hoping to merge the two into a single powerset (much like how Manipulation and Assault powersets borrow from other powersets).

 

Ultimately it was set aside for a number of reasons, but I think the major one was endurance upkeep. Having several armor toggles on at the same time meant that cost heavy buff/debuff powers would drain you dry real quickly. Other flaws in the design were pointed out, like how support powersets were so vast and varied that it became a balancing nightmare trying to figure out the right approach to an archetype like this. Other than that, no matter what they did with the idea, it would always be a less effective version of Defenders or Tankers, and there wasn't much to help the archetype flourish, as it had no unique selling point that made it a viable pick.

 

I think, ultimately, you would have an even harder time with a pure armor/support archetype. Not only for the above reasons, but having no means of attack/containment will make it near impossible to defend yourself.

 

A good alternative to a pure Armor/Support setup would be to create a whole new powerset type. Perhaps fitting the 'cleric' theme would be an Armor set that was AoE based, so when toggling on your protection, nearby allies would benefit from it too. Obviously, it would need to be balanced in such a way that you cant just turn a team into a party of tanks, but you'd still be able to provide frontline support where Defenders and other support archetypes struggle to last in a melee engagement.

 

As for the inherent? perhaps a stacking endurance discount for each nearby ally (but not pets) would fit here, allowing your endurance heavy toggles to be run more efficiently, and encouraging the player to mingle with his allies and protect them. With that in mind, maybe Assault or Manipulation would serve as the other powerset in this archetype, allowing you to move between range and melee to keep ontop of your allies.  

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Leogunner]

35 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

As for the inherent? perhaps a stacking endurance discount for each nearby ally (but not pets) would fit here, allowing your endurance heavy toggles to be run more efficiently, and encouraging the player to mingle with his allies and protect them. With that in mind, maybe Assault or Manipulation would serve as the other powerset in this archetype, allowing you to move between range and melee to keep ontop of your allies.  

 

 

Looking at the inherents currently that have garnered great success (things like Assassination, Domination, the new Gauntlet, etc), I'd aim for inherents to be more interactive to make them more entertaining and gameable so it feels like the player is accessing the capabilities of the AT rather than the inherent just happening to their character.  While passive inherents aren't bad, they tend to lean on the AT having an extreme specialization like Scrappers having the highest melee mod or Defenders having the highest buff/debuff numbers.  If this new AT has weaker armor and weaker support, you can give them a means of bolstering that deficiency or giving them some other advantage for a limited time or under specific circumstances.

 

As for END issues, doesn't Defender and Controller have access to armor toggles in their epic and pool powers?  Most armor toggles are actually pretty cheap compared to specialty toggles like Snow Storm, Arctic Air, Disruption Field, etc.  And now that players have access to inherent Fitness AND SOs starting as early as the first few levels, I find this a hard point to make.  If push came to shove, you could alter the click support to have reduced effect (either in the effect or in the number of affected targets) in exchange for cheaper END costs OR just give the AT more END (that was toyed with with the Tanker changes).  There are so many knobs to toy with, I'm concerned only the obvious ones were even considered.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

 

 

As for the inherent? perhaps a stacking endurance discount for each nearby ally (but not pets) would fit here, allowing your endurance heavy toggles to be run more efficiently, and encouraging the player to mingle with his allies and protect them. With that in mind, maybe Assault or Manipulation would serve as the other powerset in this archetype, allowing you to move between range and melee to keep ontop of your allies.  

 

 

 

I would not like an inherent that required team mates to be around.  If I'm having end problems playing the game on my own, say "go get some teammates" isn't very appealing to me. A "team most of the time" AT just doesn't sound interesting if it has inherent problems soloing.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Looking at the inherents currently that have garnered great success (things like Assassination, Domination, the new Gauntlet, etc), I'd aim for inherents to be more interactive to make them more entertaining and gameable so it feels like the player is accessing the capabilities of the AT rather than the inherent just happening to their character.  While passive inherents aren't bad, they tend to lean on the AT having an extreme specialization like Scrappers having the highest melee mod or Defenders having the highest buff/debuff numbers.  If this new AT has weaker armor and weaker support, you can give them a means of bolstering that deficiency or giving them some other advantage for a limited time or under specific circumstances.

 

As for END issues, doesn't Defender and Controller have access to armor toggles in their epic and pool powers?  Most armor toggles are actually pretty cheap compared to specialty toggles like Snow Storm, Arctic Air, Disruption Field, etc.  And now that players have access to inherent Fitness AND SOs starting as early as the first few levels, I find this a hard point to make.  If push came to shove, you could alter the click support to have reduced effect (either in the effect or in the number of affected targets) in exchange for cheaper END costs OR just give the AT more END (that was toyed with with the Tanker changes).  There are so many knobs to toy with, I'm concerned only the obvious ones were even considered.

 

The two bolded statements above are where they should take any inherent for such an AT.

[Alchemystic]

13 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I would not like an inherent that required team mates to be around.  If I'm having end problems playing the game on my own, say "go get some teammates" isn't very appealing to me. A "team most of the time" AT just doesn't sound interesting if it has inherent problems soloing.

 

True, but this is already the case for Defender, Peacebringer, and Warshade inherents.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

True, but this is already the case for Defender, Peacebringer, and Warshade inherents.

 

Which is why I don't even notice them as doing anything. I'd rather we not have yet another inherent based on teaming.

[TheLeprechaun89]

On 4/18/2021 at 6:02 PM, HelBlaiz said:

That's sort of the problem, lack of clarity in presentation. The OP mentions control powers, armor powers, and alludes to support powers as well. Later posts mention a hybrid style powerset. That I am curious to hear more about, and requested as such at the end of my second post.

 

In the name of constructive discourse, I'll try mulling over a support/control hybrid set.

 

A fire control/support set would start with the options of Ring of Fire at T1 and Char at T2, as every AT has to start with at least one attack power. T3 and T4 we can provide the option of a few support powers, Warmth and Fire Shield, I believe is the s/l Thermal power? After that Hot Feet seems good at T5, as armor sets would play well with pbaoe powers like that. T6 and T7 I'd make another couple support powers, Cauterize and Plasma Shield. Thaw and Forge could also work. T8 and T9 Im not sure about. Pet powers seem a bit much, but finding a satisfying capstone otherwise is hard. Flashfire and Cinders revalanced to be less terrible would give the set some hard AoE control, but may be too much. I mentioned in an earlier post that the set should focus on softer control so maybe Fire Cages and Bonfire? Capstones they are not.

The idea is to discuss the idea here, and thank you for actually trying to provide constructive criticism and ideas instead of just a "It no do big damage, me like big damage so me no like" kind of responses.

I was under the impression these forums were to bring up ideas and discuss them with the community to see how it would be done, rather than trying to sh*t on the posters idea because you personally wouldn't use it. lol

Of course this would need a lot of work but merging the different AT's I feel in general would add more variety to the game. It seems that since live nobody wants to play anything but a Blaster (Often a blapper build), Brute, Defender, or Tanker...  You'll get the odd troller or dom but they just don't hold up to the other AT's anymore it seems. The control playstyle needs some new spice to it I feel. 

Healers are all but useless now. lol  Most healers on a team rarely need to use their heal I find. lol