Is A More Responsive Feel Possible?

[UberGuy]

CoH's designers very much based it on turn based games. Literally D&D and Champions (the pen and paper version, not CO).

 

Stuff like attacks hitting you after you ran around a corner is because all attack rolls are resolved immediately. The fireball flying to its target is just a visual representation of something that's already been resolved, back before you got to cover. (Which may have been only moments before, given the speed of travel powers.)

 

It seems unlikely that this game will ever be able to move away from that core behavior. Its assumptions run too deep into the engine design. But making it more responsive in the sense of cutting down on time spent rooted is certainly possible, as long as there aren't balance or, in some cases, animation concerns involved.

[Peacemoon]

On 5/5/2021 at 3:13 AM, Herotu said:

Do you think it might be feasible to make the game feel a bit more responsive?

 

I understand that the game was made in a time of dial-up, where lag was enormous and the weird rubber-band feel of some powers didn't really matter. 

 

It's now the far future, 2021, post apocalypse and also pre at least another one or two. Lots of us don't even know what dial-up was! With that in mind, do you think that a more responsive game might be feasible by reducing come cast times, or is the rubbery feel of the game part of the way the client and server communicate on a fundamental level?

 

Is the rubbery feel desirable? Maybe it is? Has the snappy, responsive alternative already been tried and rejected?

Hmm, I think some confusion with your post is you begin by talking about latency and lag, and end up by talking about power activation times.

The two are very different and you sound confused. 
 

Latency/Lag/Dial Up = the time between you pushing a button and your character responding

 

Activation time = the time your character takes to use a power, which is varied by power and balanced accordingly. 
 

There are sets with fast activation times if you want something ‘more responsive’ in that regard. And HC devs have made efforts to reduce activation times that were needlessly long. There are still some powers that could use some help in that regard (radiation infection toggle!) but otherwise it HAS been improved.

Nothing wrong with a cast time/build up for powerful spells 🙂

[Peacemoon]

14 hours ago, UberGuy said:

CoH's designers very much based it on turn based games. Literally D&D and Champions (the pen and paper version, not CO).

 

Stuff like attacks hitting you after you ran around a corner is because all attack rolls are resolved immediately. The fireball flying to its target is just a visual representation of something that's already been resolved, back before you got to cover. (Which may have been only moments before, given the speed of travel powers.)

 

It seems unlikely that this game will ever be able to move away from that core behavior. Its assumptions run too deep into the engine design. But making it more responsive in the sense of cutting down on time spent rooted is certainly possible, as long as there aren't balance or, in some cases, animation concerns involved.

Also this is a factor in many online games and other MMOs.

 

If you successfully ‘cast a spell’, you can’t usually block it while moving out of LoS while the projectile is in the air. Whether you’re playing CoH or WoW.

[Herotu]

6 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Hmm, I think some confusion with your post is you begin by talking about latency and lag, and end up by talking about power activation times.

The two are very different and you sound confused. 
 

Latency/Lag/Dial Up = the time between you pushing a button and your character responding

 

Activation time = the time your character takes to use a power, which is varied by power and balanced accordingly. 
 

There are sets with fast activation times if you want something ‘more responsive’ in that regard. And HC devs have made efforts to reduce activation times that were needlessly long. There are still some powers that could use some help in that regard (radiation infection toggle!) but otherwise it HAS been improved.

Nothing wrong with a cast time/build up for powerful spells 🙂

It's hard to understand where cast times end and lag begins (or vice versa).

[gamingglen]

My computer is 10 years old. It's the same one I was using when COH was live. It works fine for my purposes.  I cannot run full graphics, and must set particle count to minimum when I join teams or leagues. I do lag a little so end up corpse blasting when on teams.  But I solo 99.9% of the time anyway.

 

I still had a landline phone and no cell phone until 3 years ago when I switched the landline to cell. The phone cost me $40. I thought I might upgrade after a year, but since it still works, why.  The only issue with it is sound quality. I've noticed that sound quality doesn't seem to be a defined thing or selling point on cell phones (or didn't last time I checked some time ago).

 

My component stereo system I got in 1985. The 200-count CD player is a bit newer, though (maybe gotten in late '90s).

 

I also drive a Corvette from 1996 (a Grand Sport convertible, now a collector's item), and my "beater" Corvette is from 2003. I do plan on selling both any time now to get a newer used Corvette (2017-2019), someday. (man, those things have gone up in price, about 10K since last spring when I first started looking)

 

I finally got my first flat screen TV (70") about five years ago, right before the "smart" models came out (dang it).

 

I cut cable TV, but kept internet access so no dial-up for me. I don't stream anything, just view TV via OTA (over-the-air). I was expecting just the local network stations and a few indie's, but much to my surprise there's a movie channel, a sci-fi channel, a western channel, of course lots of home shopping channels now blocked, but no sports channel that are OTA. All those extra channels show reruns of course. I've learned to appreciate some of the older movies ('20s - '40s) from both TMC (when I had cable) and now the OTA movie channel (Movies!).  I've looked at streaming services and find I might like one or two of the new shows.  meh.  Cheaper to wait and buy the season's DVD, which I still don't do. I do have a blue-ray DVD player bought only a couple years ago. 

 

I run all these on potatoes. 

 

Does that make me a luddite?  

 

BTW, one of those statements above is a lie. 😄 

 

edit: added specifics on cell phone, and, I don't know why I rambled on after the first paragraph.  *shrug*

Edited May 9, 2021 by gamingglen

[KauaiJim]

6 hours ago, gamingglen said:

My component stereo system I got in 1985. The 200-count CD player

 

My stereo system is from around the same time period maybe 3~4 years newer than yours.  But what I had to respond to was to 200 count CD player - I have one of those too! (out in storage with the rest of the system, lol).  Kind of useless since I unburdened myself of CD's (and vhs and dvd and bluray).  But dang it was the thing to own back then lol!

 

6 hours ago, gamingglen said:

Does that make me a luddite?

 

Naw - Sounds like you are more just a person who likes what he has and is happy with it.  It's actually refreshing to hear (imo) in a time when everything feels disposable and we are locked into feeling like we need to keep 'upgrading' everything in our lives based on 'keeping up with the latest greatest' vs when things actually need replacing or upgrading.  In my lifetime I've done a little of both - being the guy always out in front / cutting edge / latest greatest AND being the guy who makes things last forever because I like them, I am satisfied and I do not feel the false urge to "keep up with the Jones's" depending on the period in my life and what each item is/does.

 

Plus "luddite" always reminds me of luggage for some reason.  (LUdite/LUggage,samsonITE/luddITE <- I think this is why my mind makes this association.  Weird huh?

 

16 hours ago, Herotu said:

It's hard to understand where cast times end and lag begins (or vice versa).

 

Yeah I can see how that could be hard to distinguish.  I think you can look up the cast times and if it seems like an ability is taking longer than that time there could be some lag coming into the equation.  Also, for me lag is often noticeable just because I do certain abilities so much (and certain either strict attack chains of looser ones where I start filling in holes or change up what I am doing) so I kind of just know how long it should take me to do something.  Additionally, constant lag and high ping are often accompanied by lag spikes where I can visually see the activity pausing occurring on screen.   

 

Regarding cast times...  They have always been part of mmo design as a way to make the greater damage/support/heal abilities have a trade off for using them.  It gives folks a reason to use the lesser abilities and not just automatically always use the greater and never the lesser.  And it is 'realistic' to the genre.  Whether you are a knight in shining armor or a wizard or a super hero, the big ones always have a wind-up or build-up period that increases the time it takes to actually USE the ability compared to the smaller ones which can literally be done quickly over and over.  This greater 'tax' for using these abilities also often applies to the amount of energy or power or endurance or whatever they call it, in addition to the time. 

 

It is designed to replicate real life too... you can pound a nail with a hammer with shorter faster strokes using less effort and time FOR EACH HIT (use of the ability) but it will take many many more strokes (uses of the ability) to pound the nail completely in VS You can swing the hammer back further each stroke which takes longer and put more strength into it which takes more energy FOR EACH HIT (use of the ability) and it will not take as many strokes (uses of the ability).  And of course the longer the delay in casting/activation of those big powers also allows for a better window of opportunity to do things like interrupts, etc.  In a real fight you don't spend a lot of energy/effort trying to block/dodge getting slapped but when you see them haul back their arm and wind up for a big one you sure do want to use that time to avoid the much more painful wallop that's coming.

 

Bottom line - longer cast/activation times are necessary to mmorpg's and THAT delayed feeling/slowness is intentional and by design.  Oh and then there's the turn by turn 'feel' that is baked in.  Are you seeing periods on screen during combat where it looks like in the middle of everyone swinging away all of a sudden not much seems to be happening for a second or two (nothing is firing from them or you) then BAM! everything suddenly 'catches up' and is in motion again?  That would be lag...

Edited May 9, 2021 by KauaiJim

[cranebump]

Isn’t a more responsiveness feel possible? Yes, but it may takes several dates...Marry them, if you have to.