Two possible changes for Stalker...

[Haijinx]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

It was revamped with a new power and a new mechanic added.  It's a new set for all intents and purposes here.

 

 

Except for the intent and purpose that I was describing, the fact that the newer sets have full scrapper AOE powers, while the older ones do not.  

 

As you have pointed out,  EM was not given Whirling Hands, so it doesn't follow the pattern of the newer sets for Stalkers, like Street Justice, Staff, and Savage Melee do.

[FUBARczar]

On 6/10/2021 at 10:44 PM, Haijinx said:

I agree stalkers are roughly on par with scrappers as long as you don't pick underperforming powersets. 

 

Expecting stalkers to outdamage scrappers by a noticable amount is probably unrealistic.  The two ATs are very close together on DPS/Surv

 

That whole ST specialist stuff people toss around is just wishful thinking.  

 

If you redesigned COX today you wouldn't have both ATs.  You'd just have the /nin powerset for scrappers and possibly add some hide crits to sets like EA and DA

   

 

Nah there is totally room for both.  They play more differently than Defenders/Corruptors.

[Haijinx]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

Nah there is totally room for both.  They play more differently than Defenders/Corruptors.

 

If you were redesigning COX, why have both Defenders and Corruptors either? 

[FUBARczar]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:59 PM, Brutal Justice said:

 

 

Therefore, my suggestion, 40% defense hard cap for non tank types.

 

 

Sorry but that is just dumb and would cause so many problems with IOs, Incarnates, buffs from teammates, etc.  It basically throws out almost the whole game.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

If you were redesigning COX, why have both Defenders and Corruptors either? 

even though they are mirrors they are not the same.  With with different inherents, the different buff/debuff values, etc. they are different and allow players to choose their focus.  

 

When I decide to roll a Defender or a Corruptor I take many things into account.  I don't just flip a coin and think it doesn't matter they are the same anyway, because they are not.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Except for the intent and purpose that I was describing, the fact that the newer sets have full scrapper AOE powers, while the older ones do not.  

 

As you have pointed out,  EM was not given Whirling Hands, so it doesn't follow the pattern of the newer sets for Stalkers, like Street Justice, Staff, and Savage Melee do.

You are carefully omitting Psi Melee for one.

[Haijinx]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

even though they are mirrors they are not the same.  With with different inherents, the different buff/debuff values, etc. they are different and allow players to choose their focus.  

 

When I decide to roll a Defender or a Corruptor I take many things into account.  I don't just flip a coin and think it doesn't matter they are the same anyway, because they are not.

 

Well yes, they are like that NOW

 

But if you had a blank slate, and didn't have to worry about the Blue Side / Red Side legacy and all the rest.  Things would look a lot different.  

 

The only reason its the way it is now is they Merged a Game - With a whole Dark Mirror Game basically.   

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

You are carefully omitting Psi Melee for one.

 

Psi Melee is a lot older than those.  And its a general point anyway.  

 

If you pick one of those low AOE primaries, Stalkers are going to fall behind Scrappers, because they will lack AOE.  This is kind of self evident. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Well yes, they are like that NOW

 

But if you had a blank slate, and didn't have to worry about the Blue Side / Red Side legacy and all the rest.  Things would look a lot different.  

 

The only reason its the way it is now is they Merged a Game - With a whole Dark Mirror Game basically.   

if you created the game today why wouldn't you still have Heroes and Villains, it is kind of the WHOLE motif of the genre.  

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

if you created the game today why wouldn't you still have Heroes and Villains, it is kind of the WHOLE motif of the genre.  

 

You wouldn't design a system with the idea that Heroes and Villians would remain segregated their entire careers, as COV was originally designed for. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Psi Melee is a lot older than those.  And its a general point anyway.  

 

If you pick one of those low AOE primaries, Stalkers are going to fall behind Scrappers, because they will lack AOE.  This is kind of self evident. 

Psi Melee is not older.  It was in development along with Rad melee and Armor, and Bio Armor and Savage Melee when live shut down.  Stalkers had Street Justice, and Staff on live.  I believe Fire, Broad Sword are new for Homecoming, weren't on live.

[PainX]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

 

You wouldn't design a system with the idea that Heroes and Villians would remain segregated their entire careers, as COV was originally designed for. 

unfortunately there was never a big enough playerbase for that and so we had blueside and deadside even WoW had this issue after numbers started dropping to only a few million players

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Psi Melee is not older.  It was in development along with Rad melee and Armor, and Bio Armor and Savage Melee when live shut down.  Stalkers had Street Justice, and Staff on live.  I believe Fire, Broad Sword are new for Homecoming, weren't on live.

 

Ahh kay,  Whatevs.  

 

Don't pick those either. Or Psi melee.  If you want to to Scrapper-ish type Melee AOE

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

You wouldn't design a system with the idea that Heroes and Villians would remain segregated their entire careers, as COV was originally designed for. 

that is neither here nor there.  The ATs are similar and still make sense.  For instance Defenders and Corruptors are the two most comparable ATs, the two closest to one another.  But they show the difference between Heroes and Villains.  Heroes/Defenders are defensively minded with higher buffs/debuffs while Corruptors are more offensively minded so their dmage values are higher and they get Scourge. 

 

It makes sense given the general interpretations of Heroes vs Villains.  Protector vs Attacker.  And makes sense with the crossover as well.  Vigilante is an offensive anti-hero, and Rogue is a villain trying to act as a hero and so on.   

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Ahh kay,  Whatevs.  

 

Don't pick those either. Or Psi melee.  If you want to to Scrapper-ish type Melee AOE

So when you are wrong it's whatever?

 

And I ddn't say I want more AoE on Stalkers per se.  It was about correcting your claim that Stalkers are OP, blah blah blah

[Haijinx]

Just now, PainX said:

unfortunately there was never a big enough playerbase for that and so we had blueside and deadside even WoW had this issue after numbers started dropping to only a few million players

 

Yeah it seems a myopic situation that MMO designers have always had.  "Lets divide our playerbase into multiple factions"  that way it will feel even less Multiplayer.  

 

I think its one of those decisions made to try and get some PVP going or something (for most games) 

[PainX]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

 

Yeah it seems a myopic situation that MMO designers have always had.  "Lets divide our playerbase into multiple factions"  that way it will feel even less Multiplayer.  

 

I think its one of those decisions made to try and get some PVP going or something (for most games) 

it would likely work for a split pure pvp game too but for pve we like playing together and let's be honest neither game is made for pvp nor dominated by it so naturaly people gravitate to one side

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

So when you are wrong it's whatever?

 

And I ddn't say I want more AoE on Stalkers per se.  It was about correcting your claim that Stalkers are OP, blah blah blah

well correcting false statements about powersets and generally addressing your hyperbolic claim that Stalkers are OP.

Edited June 14, 2021 by FUBARczar

[Haijinx]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

So when you are wrong it's whatever?

 

And I ddn't say I want more AoE on Stalkers per se.  It was about correcting your claim that Stalkers are OP, blah blah blah

 

What do you want me to say.

 

Oh great and mighty Fubarczar, I was evidently wrong about Psi Melee, therefore evidently my ENTIRE POINT about newer sets like STJ, Staff Melee and stuff can't possibly have any merit at all. 

 

And therefore all my points don't matter.  

 

====

Or maybe.  I thought Psi melee was older than it was.  And there was no nefarious attempt on my part of just simply ignore it.  As you suggested I was doing.   

 

So yes.  Its "Whatevs"  cause my point that if you want a Stalker to feel more competitive to a scrapper in normal play, picking a set like say .. Martial Arts .. isn't going to do it for you.  You'd be better off with Street Justice.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

well correcting false statements about powersets and generally addressing your hyperbolic claim that Stalkers are OP.

 

Maybe Scrappers are OP too.

 

Hell, most of the ATs probably are at this point. 

 

I didn't start a thread saying "Stalkers are OP!!"  I was replying to the premise of this thread, that they need buffed.   They don't.  They are in the best place they have been in since this game started.  And they definitely have the best ATOs.   

 

Should they fix the sets that are AOE-deficient?  Of course!   Those are stupid being the way they are. Especially with how the game is basically a AOE zerg-fest nowadays.   

[Lockpick]

On 6/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Madae said:

Posted this in discord feedback, but I guess it would probably do more here...

 

I feel like Assassin's Focus needs to have a shared timer for all 3 stacks that is refreshed when you use an ability, so when you finally choose to use your Assassin's Strike, a charge doesn't unexpectedly fall off and ruin the whole setup. It's too inconsistent, and slightly annoying, when trying to target mobs that don't need a huge burst like that and it would be better saved for something more deserving, but then misses because you took too long to act.

 

I also think Assassin's Strike from stealth should do 5x damage instead of 3x. I find it pretty ridiculous that almost all high level Stalkers, or at least the opinion, is that they don't even utilize this class "strength" since it's so much more "efficient" to just combo up and get the instant strike instead, so it seems like, to me, it should at least do more damage than all of the strikes necessary + assassin-insta combined, and would also make placate useful again. Arguably Stalkers are already pretty terrible at everything else, so they really need some sort of buff like this, imo, and on the surface, I don't think it would unbalance the game all that much, plus make them more enticing in this playing field that's completely dominated by mass AoE.

 

Also what I've noticed is that my Blaster (Beam/Atomic Manip) can just as easily delete a single target, and perhaps even better than my Stalker, and this is not even considering the other tools they, as an AT, have (with AoE's). With the numbers crunched, maybe it is or isn't true that Stalker DPS is already very high comparable to other AT's... but that's against a single target... that also doesn't move (since everyone likes to do tests against Pylons), but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that, in general, Stalker DPS is really high... that's cool and all, but no one is lining up to play them because let's just be frank here; Stalkers are pretty plain and boring in the greater scheme of things. They have all these cool tools that differentiate them from other classes, and yet they are, as a class overall, mediocre in comparison. MAYBE with heavy set slotting, a lot of time, effort and patience, Stalkers really start to shine, but that doesn't really do anything for anyone but the most dedicated Stalker.

 

I suppose I probably get some arguments about this, and that's fine... tell me where I'm mistaken and we can discuss it more thoroughly, but I've tried half a dozen Stalkers since I started playing again recently, all to around 40+, and they just aren't all that they're cracked up to be. I want to like them, maybe they're just "not for me", which I think is a cop-out for their clear design problems, but maybe others can tell me different - obviously there will be people out there that have put much more time and effort (I call that pain) into this than me.

 

Read through the thread and it seems this post has some people up in arms.  Not sure why since it is just an opinion.  You are articulating my experience with Assassin's Strike especially in teams.  I wouldn't mind seeing some fix there.

 

I don't agree that stalkers are terrible at everything else.  On Live I played on Scrappers; here I am playing more Stalkers.  I do think Stalkers have gaps compared to Scrappers, but I like the stealth aspect of the AT and they can be built pretty sturdy with the right investments.

 

I don't agree with some in the thread that Stalkers are OP.  I'm not seeing stalkers soloing ITF at +4/8, but definitely seeing threads with tankers doing it.  I expect Brutes and Scrappers are as well.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I don't agree with some in the thread that Stalkers are OP.  I'm not seeing stalkers soloing ITF at +4/8, but definitely seeing threads with tankers doing it.  I expect Brutes and Scrappers are as well.

 

You could.  But not "Tank Gods" style where the enemies are buffed.  I tried that for fun and got stomped, badly.  

 

But just +4x8 using inspirations?  I'm sure you could, the only problem I see is the last Romulus fight and that #*)@)& Auto-hit nictus.  

 

Blasters and Defenders have solo'd ITF also

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

 

Read through the thread and it seems this post has some people up in arms.  Not sure why since it is just an opinion.  You are articulating my experience with Assassin's Strike especially in teams.  I wouldn't mind seeing some fix there.

 

I don't agree that stalkers are terrible at everything else.  On Live I played on Scrappers; here I am playing more Stalkers.  I do think Stalkers have gaps compared to Scrappers, but I like the stealth aspect of the AT and they can be built pretty sturdy with the right investments.

 

I don't agree with some in the thread that Stalkers are OP.  I'm not seeing stalkers soloing ITF at +4/8, but definitely seeing threads with tankers doing it.  I expect Brutes and Scrappers are as well.

I agree.

 

Also I've done a solo MoITF +4/8 twice w/o inspirations on Stalkers.  Once with DM/Invuln and once with Rad/SD.  But it's easier on other ATs like Brutes and Blasters and they have much better times too.  Actually my Stalkers are about the same speed as my Tanks  (SD/DM and Bio/TW).  So yeah if someone would choose to do a solo MoITF they would most likely not choose to do it on a stalker.

[PainX]

i think alot of AT's can accomplish that with enough willpower between OP incarnates and IO's really anything with those two is borderline OP maybe not MM since pets tend to still drop like flies and dont get truly broken IO bonuses due to their mechanics and AI fighting you every step of the way could probably do it just think it would be horrible i guess

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Maybe Scrappers are OP too.

 

Hell, most of the ATs probably are at this point. 

 

I didn't start a thread saying "Stalkers are OP!!"  I was replying to the premise of this thread, that they need buffed.   They don't.  They are in the best place they have been in since this game started.  And they definitely have the best ATOs.   

 

Should they fix the sets that are AOE-deficient?  Of course!   Those are stupid being the way they are. Especially with how the game is basically a AOE zerg-fest nowadays.   

Just saying, your first post stated:

On 6/10/2021 at 12:54 AM, Haijinx said:

Stalkers are probably OP right now to be honest. 

 

Any improvements like these would have to be accompanied with survivability reductions.

 

Or you know whatever.  Peeps love power creep.  

 

Anyhow, yeah fixing older sets would be AWESOME.  I don't think Stalkers need a buff, but if the quick AS could be made more reliable that would be AWSEOME!

 

For instance I'd love to see MA get Dragon's Tail.