Mind control

[WitchofDread]

Why is mind rated better on a dom than a troller? And what pairs well with it?

[Mezmera]

Because of what domination gets you in Mind Control for instantaneous control.  On controllers you need to add quirks to your aoe control like the +mag extra hold proc on the aoe hold and the coercive proc to mass confusion to halfway mimic what a dom can do from the start with it.  

 

Lots of things pair well with it.  It depends on what you want to do.  Doms tend to be best with a melee blapper playstyle.  The special powerboosting abilities that some secondary's have lengthens your control too which is quite underrated.  

 

I've played almost all assaults, some are better than others, I'd look at the ones they revamped a while back to see which flavor may fit your fancy.  My Mind/Energy is my best character I have, but there's lots of secondary's you can't go wrong with.  The Soul Mastery Epic pool is fabulous so take those potential powers into consideration.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by Mezmera

[WitchofDread]

energy assault looks good, its one i havent tried before. On live i used to have a mind/psi/soul and i would just rampage through everything. I like the idea of Mind/dark, whether it is any good though is a different story.

[oedipus_tex]

Mind Control is rated poorly on Controllers because Mind is designed as a Blast set but because of the rules for Containment it ends up delivering poor damage. Even on Dominators, long cooldowns on key powers and lack of access to hard mezzes, and no debuff effect to fall back on when controls fails hold it back in my opinion, at least in comparison to the set that comes closest to it, Dark Control.

 

Keep in mind though that rating sets this way is a little misleading, and some additional context is needed. A Mind Dominator is the better soloist and (possibly) better for 8-man Task Forces, but if the task is an iTrial I'd rather have almost any Controller on the team than a Dominator. The Controller's support set is (usually) a lot more useful than a Dominator's abilities in that setting. So the game does offer some varied challenges, and it can be difficult to pin down which character type is truly the "best."

 

All of that said, if you're going to be doing a lot of exemplaring to lower levels, be aware that when exemp'ed below the level where Mass Confusion is available, Mind Control struggles. It's rare for me to give an "F" rating to a set, but specifically in a team setting at low levels Mind Control probably deserves it. You can find yourself stuck with powers like Mass Hypnosis (a Sleep) and Total Domination (the standard AoE Hold any Controller gets) while your teammates are hurling fantastic controls like Flashfire, Stalagmites, Seeds of Confusion, etc. Only Gravity Control is similarly backloaded. Part of the reason I don't play Mind Control characters anymore is that even though they do eventually perform okay, it's a long wait for key powers, and even once you have them, certain Task Forces will always be unideal for you. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

energy assault looks good, its one i havent tried before. On live i used to have a mind/psi/soul and i would just rampage through everything. I like the idea of Mind/dark, whether it is any good though is a different story.

 

I have a Mind/Dark.  The heal is nice and the pbaoe is a little better, other than that everything else on Energy is better.  The dps in it's three best attacks is stupendous and Soul Mastery fills in all of my missing aoe while also amping up my damage abilities with the Soul Drain buff.  

[MoonSheep]

still loving my mind/fire 2 years on since i remade it from live - pure ranged control and incredible damage

[Dini]

Mind as a dominator is a truly insane powerset. With perma-dom and invis you can go undetected through entire maps mass mezzing and confusing everything without being detected. Mass Mezz and confuse generate no threat or do any damage so invis doesn't drop.  Fairly, you don't generate mass xp or influence gains but you do get mission accomplishments and merits, etc.. for tf/sf/trial completions. When mass confuse is on CD, a ST confuse allows you to 1 shot control bosses and LTs and move on. I just have to be careful about AOEs. Confuse is also somehow more potent on AVs that other holds. 

 

In my playing time, Nemesis snipers, Rikti drones and Roman engineers are troublesome for detecting invisibility but I can mitigate even if it slows me down a lot. The only zone or enemy group that makes me play much more conventionally is the Rularuu.

[Vengeful Arrow]

5 minutes ago, Dini said:

 

In my playing time, Nemesis snipers, Rikti drones and Roman engineers are troublesome for detecting invisibility but I can mitigate even if it slows me down a lot.

Some enemies bypass all stealth, no matter the level.  Also, confuse is easier on some groups because they specifically have to have confuse protection, just like we do. Just because some boss is resistant to hold doesn't necessarily mean he has sleep, confuse, or fear protection. And that's what mind specializes in. Also most confuse duration is way longer that holds. Again, on a dominator it's twice as long as "way longer" with domination.  And Sleeps used to be the way to separate AVs in task forces before they did the triangles. Mind was really underrated until you needed them. But when you needed them, it was very lopsided.

[oedipus_tex]

I recently saw some videos for another game where folks ranked sets into tiers using Tier List, so I decided to do something similar with Homecoming's Dominator Control Sets. I arrived at this:

 

 

 

Since the icons may not be clear on their own, my ranking goes:

• S Tier: Plant, Dark
• A Tier: Earth
• B Tier: Fire, Electric
• C Tier: Mind, Ice
• D Tier: Gravity

 

 

Now, any time you are ranking things into tiers this way there's always some controversy. I think even Gravity, my lowest rated Dominator set, is still playable. There's also always going to be some questions about what sort of missions we are trying to do, and whether it matters how the set performs as challenge levels increase.

 

 

Plant and Dark Control both feature a Confusion power, and both are top of the game IMO for various reasons. I consider either of them generally better than Mind Control in most situations. There are occasionally scenarios that might call for Mass Confusion, but in my experience they are rare.

 

I put Electric in B tier, but not so much because of its Confusion power. Electric is *almost* Tier A, except for not being able to Dominate with Synaptic Overload. If this is ever fixed it would do a lot for the set IMO.

 

On Dominators I put Mind Control on around the same tier as Ice Control. Playable, potentially fun, obviously designed with love. But in terms of performance, it falls behind sets that can chug out reliable hard hitting mezz that makes it safe to leap into the fray.

 

Mind Control does tend to handle AVs better, to the extent that matters, and I can see why some people might slot it higher.

 

 

 

In case you're wondering, here's how I'd rank the same sets on Controllers (Illusion isn't shown here because I didn't have its icon handy, but I'd put it in S tier).

 

 

 

On Controllers, Mind Control falls a rank for me and is in the bottom tier. Plant still reins supreme. I can explain the rest of the rankings if you're curious.

Edited August 23, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

Lol Mind is S tier. 

 

Plant outshines all because it's broken but Mind is just behind it.

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Lol Mind is S tier. 

 

Plant outshines all because it's broken but Mind is just behind it.

 

 

Clearly we disagree, probably because we value the ability to stack Confusion on AVs differently. So I will make the case that if you specifically care about soloing AVs Mind ranks higher.

 

For most general play Mind Control sits at C rank for me. It's a set that's billed as "safe" but in practice leads to leaning hard on an AoE Hold that all other sets get but in most cases don't need to lean on. It lacks an AoE Immobilize to keep things from running, has no debuff to fall back on when its controls fail, and doesn't exemplar well. Mind and Gravity are the only sets I no longer have a IOed Dominator dedicated to. I like the theme, but Dark and Plant are just too much better at what Mind is trying to do, and the recharge on Mass Confusion makes what would otherwise be a safe set dangerous to keep the roll moving like other Dominators can.

[Mezmera]

You get 2 hard aoe controls and 2 soft aoe controls in Mind and tons of stealthy play if that's your style.  You can pick apart mobs at your leisure easily being in domination or you can drop the hammer.  No other dom can boast that. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

You get 2 hard aoe controls and 2 soft aoe controls in Mind and tons of stealthy play if that's your style.  You can pick apart mobs at your leisure easily being in domination or you can drop the hammer.  No other dom can boast that. 

 

 

Here's the essence of our disagreement I think. Mind Control gets 4 AoE Controls, but due to the low uptime of Mass Confusion, it doesn't actually have those abilities available. What makes Plant, Earth, and Dark so ferocious is the very generous recharge on key control powers that makes them available every fight. It takes a lot of IOs to get Mass Confusion down to a 60 sec recharge.

 

Every Dominator gets an AoE Hold. It's a class mainstay. I do tend to value the ranged Holds Gravity, Mind, Electric and Plant have over the PBAoE versions available to Ice and Fire. Dark and Earth have versions superior to any of these. Mind Control usually has to cycle between Mass Confusion and Total Domination. Most sets don't do that, their key controls are available on more reasonable recharge schedules. 

 

Most Dominators also have an AoE Sleep power. They skip them though. Mass Hypnosis does recharge faster than other AoE Sleeps and doesn't notify, so I consider it a better power than many of them. I don't personally consider Mass Hypnosis a game changer though. 

 

I will give you that specifically in regard to AVs, Mind Control has an edge. Some people may value that a lot higher than I do. For me, the set gives up a lot more than it earns back from the edgecase ability to stack mezz on an AV. 

 

 

RE: Controllers I'll stand by the D ranking I gave them. Even if Mind on Dominators deserves better than the rank I gave it, OP is right that Mind on Controllers has a lot of issues.

[Mezmera]

15 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Here's the essence of our disagreement I think. Mind Control gets 4 AoE Controls, but due to the low uptime of Mass Confusion, it doesn't actually have those abilities available. What makes Plant, Earth, and Dark so ferocious is the very generous recharge on key control powers that makes them available every fight. It takes a lot of IOs to get Mass Confusion down to a 60 sec recharge.

 

Every Dominator gets an AoE Hold. It's a class mainstay. I do tend to value the ranged Holds Gravity, Mind, Electric and Plant have over the PBAoE versions available to Ice and Fire. Dark and Earth have versions superior to any of these. Mind Control usually has to cycle between Mass Confusion and Total Domination. Most sets don't do that, their key controls are available on more reasonable recharge schedules. 

 

Most Dominators also have an AoE Sleep power. They skip them though. Mass Hypnosis does recharge faster than other AoE Sleeps and doesn't notify, so I consider it a better power than many of them. I don't personally consider Mass Hypnosis a game changer though. 

 

I will give you that specifically in regard to AVs, Mind Control has an edge. Some people may value that a lot higher than I do. For me, the set gives up a lot more than it earns back from the edgecase ability to stack mezz on an AV. 

 

 

RE: Controllers I'll stand by the D ranking I gave them. Even if Mind on Dominators deserves better than the rank I gave it, OP is right that Mind on Controllers has a lot of issues.

 

Mind on controllers under performs because there's very little damage abilities in the power set.  Where a dom can rely on their secondary for damage a controller has only support abilities to offer.  Plus then on controllers you have to get creative with procs to try to attain the control a dom gets by just being in domination.  This is why Gravity is so much better on controllers because those attacks in its set aren't redundant and mostly subpar compared to when it's on a dom.  

 

In Mind you can instantly sleep a full group, confuse the bosses to your side, if another group aggros you can toss out a Mass Confusion, then if a third group ambushes you then you can drop a Total Domination to stop them in their tracks, last in case you missed anyone on the map you can terrify everything in front of you.  The sleep and terrify recharge pretty fast that you can maintain control easily.  

 

No control can control the map like Mind, but yeah they're only good on AV's.

 

Clearly you have little experience with Mind control or you'd never say a Mind dom is only good in AV engagements.  As a rule I tend to not want to rank things I have little experience with.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

In Mind you can instantly sleep a full group, confuse the bosses to your side, if another group aggros you can toss out a Mass Confusion, then if a third group ambushes you then you can drop a Total Domination to stop them in their tracks, last in case you missed anyone on the map you can terrify everything in front of you.  The sleep and terrify recharge pretty fast that you can maintain control easily.  

 

No control can control the map like Mind, but yeah they're only good on AV's.

 

 

The reason I respectably disagree with you is most sets have sleep powers. However, most players skip the sleep powers because they are able to maintain control without taking that power.

 

Mind Control's Sleep recharges faster than most others, which does make its sleep more attractive. However its key power, Mass Confusion, recharges much slower. At 240 Recharge Plant and Electric Control have x4 as much access. Terrify is the power that is up every fight. It's not bad, certainly better than nothing. 

 

Mind Control also lacks a knock patch power to match Ice Slick/Quake/Creepers/Bonfire/Gremlins (Jolting Chain)/Singularity (Repel).

 

Mind Control has a big hole in it. I'm not sure if the power that's underperforming is Mass Confusion or Telekinesis. Thematically, I like it. It's obvious someone poured a lot of love into the design. However I can't in earnestness rank it higher than mid tier while also feeling like it needs a balance pass.

[Mezmera]

35 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The reason I respectably disagree with you is most sets have sleep powers. However, most players skip the sleep powers because they are able to maintain control without taking that power.

 

Mind Control's Sleep recharges faster than most others, which does make its sleep more attractive. However its key power, Mass Confusion, recharges much slower. At 240 Recharge Plant and Electric Control have x4 as much access. Terrify is the power that is up every fight. It's not bad, certainly better than nothing. 

 

Mind Control also lacks a knock patch power to match Ice Slick/Quake/Creepers/Bonfire/Gremlins (Jolting Chain)/Singularity (Repel).

 

Mind Control has a big hole in it. I'm not sure if the power that's underperforming is Mass Confusion or Telekinesis. Thematically, I like it. It's obvious someone poured a lot of love into the design. However I can't in earnestness rank it higher than mid tier while also feeling like it needs a balance pass.

 

I don't even take the aoe sleep in Mind control, but it is pretty decent and it is there if you're having troubles with your control in this power set.  If I ever need the instant control of a sleep I just go with Mesmerize for my starter power.  

 

Seeds of Confusion is broken, it behaves far too well for what else you can do in that set.  Electric's confuse is meh.  I don't disagree that it's bs other power sets have a better confuse at t5 than Mind's signature power.  For starters tune down those other OP confuses like Mind control had done to theirs oh so long ago in anticipation of IOs coming out and being a thing.  

 

Terrify and Mass Hypnosis I consider both soft control.  They should be layered in as such after you've dropped one of Total Domination or Mass Confusion.  

 

What need is there for a knock power when you can in a matter of seconds control 64 targets?  Drop Total Domination then blast that group to their demise then move on to the next group, why waste time using a knockback power when the group is already well controlled to not fight back?  

 

There's no hole in Mind, in fact it has far better control than any other power set.  Plant is better because it is all hammer, with Seeds acting the way it does and with Creepers providing aggro mitigation and the damage that it does.  Aside from Plant overperforming there's nothing out there that can match the sophistication of Mind control.  

 

I'll give you TK needing a bit of a buff, not that I'll have room to take it, but because others need something to clamor for.  

 

 

[MoonSheep]

a thread where @Mezmera and i can be friends for 5 minutes, very nice 😀

 

mind control has a different playstyle to other sets and that’s okay. there’s a lot of fun being sneaky and decisive when applying control powers.

 

should people not play stalkers and instead everyone be a spines/fire tank that aggros as much as possible?

 

not to mention, my dom has well slotted vengeance - i’m actively hoping people die so i can use it

 

[oedipus_tex]

13 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

What need is there for a knock power when you can in a matter of seconds control 64 targets?  Drop Total Domination then blast that group to their demise then move on to the next group, why waste time using a knockback power when the group is already well controlled to not fight back?  

 

 

Total Domination is the same power as:

• Vines
• Paralyzing Blast
• Gravity Distortion Field

 

If you have to mention Total Domination then you've illustrated the hole I am referring to. Mind Control having to use its AoE Hold to keep up with other sets is the hole.

 

[Voltak]

On 8/10/2021 at 1:12 PM, Mezmera said:

 

I have a Mind/Dark.  The heal is nice and the pbaoe is a little better, other than that everything else on Energy is better.  The dps in it's three best attacks is stupendous and Soul Mastery fills in all of my missing aoe while also amping up my damage abilities with the Soul Drain buff.  

Dark is my domain.  I specialize in it. 

I will pair Dark with anything anyone else deems is better than Dark assault. 

DPS is only one  part necessary to successfully do  very challenging game content 

Because of that, Dark assault, to me, outshines any other set

The to hit debuffs are very good. 

The heal is great and it recharges so fast. 

I can play at range for the vast amount of time. 

The Dmg on Dark is still good and good enough to do very challenging tasks without inspirations. 

It's very difficult for me now to pick any other set to replace Dark. 

Defense is too important in the game and having that to hit debuff and the burst heal is too good while still having great damage is too good. 

Even in PVP drain life is so important that tournaments rules are now that if you have drain life and the final score is equal, the rules will declare whoever has drain life as the loser since it is too much of an advantage used to stall or save you from your death. 

 

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Total Domination is the same power as:

• Vines
• Paralyzing Blast
• Gravity Distortion Field

 

If you have to mention Total Domination then you've illustrated the hole I am referring to. Mind Control having to use its AoE Hold to keep up with other sets is the hole.

 

 

AoE control is what control is supposed to provide to the battlefield so yes I'm aware that every power set carries that t7 aoe hold.  Total Domination, Mass Confusion and Mass Hypnosis are instantaneous hard control.  If you're solo or your teammates know not to hit your slept targets Hypnosis it can be considered hard control if not it's still great aoe mitigation and thus I acquiesce that it's more apt to consider it a soft control.  Then you still have Terrify as another soft control.   

[EnjoyTheJourney]

A proc'd up terrify does about 300 damage and is available about every 15 seconds, with decent recharge. It's classified as "soft control", but its DPS makes it a good AOE for damage purposes for mind doms. Many mobs won't even attempt to return fire when it hits them before they aggro onto the mind dom; they'll just take damage, freeze in place, and shiver with fright. 

 

Terrify does just fine as an opener on a mind dom in most settings, when used with care. Mass hypnosis is even safer to use, given how it generates no aggro, and it has roughly similar availability as terrify. With both total domination and mass confusion recharging in about a minute, or a bit more, mind doms tend to have an AOE "spawn shutdown" skill ready for most situations. 

[Mezmera]

12 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Dark is my domain.  I specialize in it. 

I will pair Dark with anything anyone else deems is better than Dark assault. 

DPS is only one  part necessary to successfully do  very challenging game content 

Because of that, Dark assault, to me, outshines any other set

The to hit debuffs are very good. 

The heal is great and it recharges so fast. 

I can play at range for the vast amount of time. 

The Dmg on Dark is still good and good enough to do very challenging tasks without inspirations. 

It's very difficult for me now to pick any other set to replace Dark. 

Defense is too important in the game and having that to hit debuff and the burst heal is too good while still having great damage is too good. 

Even in PVP drain life is so important that tournaments rules are now that if you have drain life and the final score is equal, the rules will declare whoever has drain life as the loser since it is too much of an advantage used to stall or save you from your death. 

 

 

We know how you play it.  In an ITF hardcore mode where we kind of need all hands on deck spamming their aoe you're off stealthing and ST confusing things.  On the first go I was taking alphas for the team expecting I had teammates going to provide follow up mitigation, alas it wasn't to be.  So I corrected myself within accordance of how I now knew how some teammates will hover far out of range in stealth and just use ST confuse.  

 

Yes I don't disagree that Dark is a bit more damage oriented than all the other controls.  Plant outdoes us all though.  

 

I could just switch to my stealth pool build and spam ST confuse just the same.  I just don't want to take hours on a TF that should take 30mins tops if all hands are on deck.  

[Voltak]

18 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I recently saw some videos for another game where folks ranked sets into tiers using Tier List, so I decided to do something similar with Homecoming's Dominator Control Sets. I arrived at this:

 

 

 

 

Mind Control does tend to handle AVs better, to the extent that matters, and I can see why some people might slot it higher.

 

 

 

I

Having a vast amount of hands on experience, I can, with full confidence, say that Dark handles AVs better than any other set. 

Not only does it have an awesome power in Possess, but...

The To Hit debuffs (even significantly much stronger ones in the Fear and the amazing power Shadow Field)  are significant

THREE pets

The ST immob, which mind does not have, is very practical for runners, if you include the immobile in your build. 

The synergy with dark assault that no other primary has is also an advantage. 

So for AVs, I can put Dark control with the best and probably beat them. 

[Voltak]

8 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

We know how you play it.  In an ITF hardcore mode where we kind of need all hands on deck spamming their aoe you're off stealthing and ST confusing things.  On the first go I was taking alphas for the team expecting I had teammates going to provide follow up mitigation, alas it wasn't to be.  So I corrected myself within accordance of how I now knew how some teammates will hover far out of range in stealth and just use ST confuse.  

 

Yes I don't disagree that Dark is a bit more damage oriented than all the other controls.  Plant outdoes us all though.  

 

I could just switch to my stealth pool build and spam ST confuse just the same.  I just don't want to take hours on a TF that should take 30mins tops if all hands are on deck.  

This discussion was about powers, not directing your personal griefs with me. 

But since you went that route --

Here you go : 

I break out of stealth in a timely and wise manner.  

I get my own fair share of kills. 

You died more times than I could count. 

You do zero dmg when dead, you contribute zero when you dead, and die you certainly did. 

I don't play reckless.  

The feats I achieve are not done by reckless playing, but being tactical and smart.


You feel that I only use confuse but that is far from the truth. 

Dmg alone is not the end of the game, and I don't measure efficiency or superiority based on dmg alone, that is not smart at all. 

Mitigation is part of it, instruments, debuffs, and so on. It's many parts or pieces. 

I feel what you saying about all hands on deck, but being dead is no hands on deck. 
You won't finish any TF dead. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Voltak

[oedipus_tex]

Just now, Voltak said:

Having a vast amount of hands on experience, I can, with full confidence, say that Dark handles AVs better than any other set. 

Not only does it have an awesome power in Possess, but...

The To Hit debuffs (even significantly much stronger ones in the Fear and the amazing power Shadow Field)  are significant

THREE pets

The ST immob, which mind does not have, is very practical for runners, if you include the immobile in your build. 

The synergy with dark assault that no other primary has is also an advantage. 

So for AVs, I can put Dark control with the best and probably beat them. 

 

 

Yeah. Dark Control is S tier for me partly for that reason, and also partly because it provides huge debuffs that get you around the mezz binary that rules most Dominator builds. Unlike Controllers, Dominators are starved for debuff, armor or healing. The -ToHit in Dark Control goes much further for them. My Dark Control builds are usually unstoppable from around level 22 on. This is before we get into the kegger that is Dark Control comboed with a source of Power Boost, at which point the Dominator becomes one of the best ToHit debuffers in the game.

 

Dark Control is S tier for Dominators. Well earned.