Is farming an imbalanced method of earning ingame rewards?

[InvaderStych]

  

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

With free attuning via the market, the need to replace IOs is much less than is was on live.  Also, with all the extra trays it's possible to respec at 50 and pull out more-or-less every IO you have which can then be reused or listed on the market.  If they go back onto the market the magic of level bucketing once more makes them available to everyone, no matter what level they want to buy.  Anyway, even if players replaced the IOs in every slot at 50 and reused or sold nothing, they're still generating 5 times more recipes than they use, and that will only grow with time if they keep playing after 50. 

 

I wanted to emphasize those two features of the HC Market as it is possible that not enough players are aware that the market functions in this manner.  While I am sure that most of us active in this thread do know that, there's ample evidence (players being unaware that there is a single market serving all shards, for example) that not everyone who stops by the forums does.

 

I am pretty sure that without definitive information from the HC Team the task of determining how much balancing impact those functions have seems basically insurmountable, so there's also that.

 

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

All I'm saying really is that if I was designing the game from the ground up I would put rewards far less behind defeating enemies and more behind completing tasks.

 

I can get behind this; not because of an equalizing factor, but because it is more representative of game design in 2021 where the Rewards For Defeats design is very much 2004.  There are dozens upon dozens of arcs and probably a handful of TFs that could use their Merit payout increased, for example.

 

So let me ask this:  Setting aside activities for which the game code is not able to provide rewards (Organizing Social Events like CCs) what sort reward increase would improve your experience?  It's probably possible within the game's code, for example, to provide extra merits to a league leader with a small extra bonus for individual team leaders for things like Trials, TFs, and Hami Raids. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Now, I have *NO IDEA* what constitutes a risk in HC.  I don't have enough information, and I certainly don't have enough power.  Does AFK 3-box farming constitute a risk?  Dunno, but we know that the devs don't love it, and since this is their ball, I'm going to defer to them to make the rules.  And I do love me some rules.  <--- Lawful Good.

 

It's a good question.  I can't stop thinking about Ganymede Station from The Expanse.  Complex but also Simple.  Easy to send into an irreversible spiral.  The Live Market was a lot closer to that than what we have right now.  The HC market feels complex/robust enough (and is regulated enough) that it's not subject to that level of failure. I don't know, maybe I am talking nonsense, or stating the obvious.  I'm not sure which.

 

Though it's probably for the best that you self-id as Lawful Good.  If anyone could send the HC Economy into Cascade Failure it's probably a Chaotic Evil Yomo.

[MHertz]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

I think the number of people who are slotting only what drops for them is probably really, really small.  Most people will be putting their recipes onto the market where, thanks to the magic of level bucketing, it doesn't matter what level they were earned at...

First, that's a pretty keen system. I was not aware of that feature on HC. It doesn't change the fact that playing on +0 earns you more drops than defeating the same number of mobs on +4. That suggests to me that the system is, indeed, imbalanced, regardless whether this has any long-term effect on market prices or item availability. Sure, the connection between this drop rate and the market is tenuous and I can't prove any direct causality to anything; that's not my point. If nothing else, people doing content on +4 have fewer raw materials to work with and fewer things to sell. Seems like an imbalance to me.

[Neiska]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

I am happy to acknowledge that farming is Not ruining the economy, but THIS take is disingenuous.

You aren't an efficient genius. You've simply chosen a playstyle that is ARBITRARILY REWARDED MORE than other playstyles.

 

THAT is the crux of the disagreement right there.

 

And that playstyle is open equally to everyone, others simply choose not to use it, and such is enough to give it the brand of Cain?

 

And you aren't the judge and jury either. Just because you don't use the tools provided, don't push your choice onto others, particularly when it's unwanted.

 

THATS the crux of the argument from where I sit. I care less about the economical aspects than the "I don't like what THEY are doing even though its perfectly allowed", particularly when the argument is defended with economical implications, when there are far more egregious actions with more severe impacts. 

 

Don't want to farm? Good for you. Then don't. How about you leave the people who do put in the time, effort, and patience into farming alone?

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Neiska said:

And that playstyle is open equally to everyone, others simply choose not to use it, and such is enough to give it the brand of Cain?

 

I addressed this earlier, but I will do so again. This attitude is saying that I MUST play a certain way to get those rewards. I am saying all playstyles should be rewarded roughly equally, to the extent it is possible.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I addressed this earlier, but I will do so again. This attitude is saying that I MUST play a certain way to get those rewards. I am saying all playstyles should be rewarded roughly equally, to the extent it is possible.

 

Yes, you must complete missions, get badges or defeat enemies to get rewards.

 

What other playstyles are you speaking of? Are you stating that standing around pocket d roleplaying should grant rewards?

 

Or are you stating that the guy running at +1/x1 with SOs should get the same rewards over time as the guy completing the same mission in 1/10th the time? And if so, how is that remotely fair to anyone? Why should I be punished?

[Neiska]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

What I'm saying is I think it would actually be better for the game if All playstyles, even such as you just described, were rewarded Roughly the same over time. That is purely an opinion based on intuition though, not something that can be datamined nor a perspective I am really trying to persuade people to share.

 

Right, lets explore that notion, shall we?

 

You want "all playstyles rewarded equally", I don't think you have fully thought out the full implications of that. But here, lets have a spin at it.

 

Levels - under your argument, a level one will make the SAME inf per kill as a level 50. Hey, fair is fair, right? It doesn't matter that the level 50 needs 1000x more inf than that level 1 does to gear up. Its Fair!

 

Speed - Your rate of kills shouldn't matter either! That would favor bursty high dps classes, how dare they! We have to streamline it 100% for all speeds. Which means you shouldn't earn inf per KILL but per time played. Its the only way!

 

Time - Your time invested in a character shouldn't matter either. Nonono, not at all. Why shouldn't a freshly made level 1 earn the SAME as someone who played their same character for years now, and long ago earned all they needed to gear themselves up? We cant have them earning excess they don't need! That would create a surplus and cause inflation!

 

Team type - Task Forces, Raids, Rando Missions, Street Sweeping? No different activity should matter! Why signup for a task force for any increased reward when you can earn the same just flying around killing random's on the open world maps? Who cares about the higher difficulty or enhancement requirements? That shouldn't matter! All team activites should earn the same rewards!

 

Solo vs team - Why should shy, antisocial, or the introverted be unfairly penalized economically? They will now earn the same inf that they would on a team! Its fair, right?

 

Investment - It shouldn't matter what it COST for you to get where you are now, or what you are capable of. All characters should be the same, economically! Why should a build that cost 800 million infamy be rewarded more than someone who uses IOs 20 items below their level? The inhumanity! Equalize them out I say!

 

Travel time - Why should something like mere "travel" penalize ones earning potential? They should be rewarded for just standing around! Now merely accepting a mission will earn you rewards!

 

 

Yes. This is how you sound. As much as this has been talked about before, they have already nerfed farms already, to the point where other activities are just as lucrative, others are even more so. And any time one of us farmers point out that playing the market is by FAR the quickest most efficient way to get wealthy, I have yet to hear any single "anti farmer" address or even comment about it.  

 

Farming maps can be small. Consistent combat. And quickly repeatable. Sorry if your story mode requires things like travel time, or escorting, or clicking a glowie. Those are the kinds of missions that slow things down. And you would rather penalize people who put in what I would argue, far more time, effort, and money invested into what they have, than you are willing to just accept "hey, they kill more things than I do, faster."

 

Yea, but no. If you want to break it down to the nit and grit, farmers kill more, faster. Its as simple as that. It shouldn't be any shock to anyone that they earn more than the slow-mode methods of play.

[Wavicle]

I honestly do think rewards based more on tasks completed and less on enemy defeats is a better model.

[Neiska]

Just now, Wavicle said:

I honestly do think rewards based more on tasks completed and less on enemy defeats is a better model.

 

Then I am glad you aren't the one in charge, and I very much doubt I am the only one.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Neiska said:

 

Then I am glad you aren't the one in charge, and I very much doubt I am the only one.

 

That's fine, you can be a jerk while making your point, though it doesn't make your point stronger.

Meanwhile, in most modern MMOs, my approach is the way things mostly go. I'm not suggesting rewards be changed much if at all from where they currently are, but there's no question that in the larger game design community my approach is being widely adopted and yours is being left behind.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That's fine, you can be a jerk while making your point, though it doesn't make your point stronger.

Meanwhile, in most modern MMOs, my approach is the way things mostly go. I'm not suggesting rewards be changed much if at all from where they currently are, but there's no question that in the larger game design community my approach is being widely adopted and yours is being left behind.

 

In what games are you seeing this "rewards are equal regardless of effort put in" concept?

[Neiska]

Just now, Wavicle said:

 

That's fine, you can be a jerk while making your point, though it doesn't make your point stronger.

Meanwhile, in most modern MMOs, my approach is the way things mostly go. I'm not suggesting rewards be changed much if at all from where they currently are, but there's no question that in the larger game design community my approach is being widely adopted and yours is being left behind.

 

Right, you are the one who wants other people penalized for your own decision, and "I'm" the jerk. 

 

And no, that is not how "most MMO's" go, that is how single player games usually go. Most games use exactly what we have - the multi-reward system. You get things per kill. You get things for completing tasks. You get things for killing bosses/rare enemies. 

 

I mean, lets do a thought experiment here. For arguments sake, lets say they did just as you prescribed and suddenly made it so kills earned you nothing, and that completing tasks is what was rewarded. Do you realize what would happen?

 

First, I suspect a sharp SHARP drop in "players helping players", pretty much immediately. Because you suddenly made resources more of a pain to get. 

Secondly, it would take much more "effort" to get far "less". Hello stale markets.

Third, you can kiss the wide market goodbye. Farmers are likely a main suppliers of such markets. That means less converters, unslotters, catalysts, purple recipies, etc for everyone.

Fourth, have you even considered things such as "completing missions 1/day" feature?

Fifth, the farmers would figure out which tasks were the most profitable, and speed run those. And in all likely hood, they would do it alone.

 

If you think this change would magically solve the inf/minute ratio across different people and playstyles, I suspect it would only increase it. Possibly dramatically. Because right now, anyone can get "something." Under your system, only certain people would get somethings. Namely those that teamed would be rewarded the most. Which could encourage multi-boxing more, further diluting the pool of players.

 

So yea, that wouldn't pan out like you might think. 

[macskull]

55 minutes ago, MHertz said:

First, that's a pretty keen system. I was not aware of that feature on HC. It doesn't change the fact that playing on +0 earns you more drops than defeating the same number of mobs on +4. That suggests to me that the system is, indeed, imbalanced, regardless whether this has any long-term effect on market prices or item availability. Sure, the connection between this drop rate and the market is tenuous and I can't prove any direct causality to anything; that's not my point. If nothing else, people doing content on +4 have fewer raw materials to work with and fewer things to sell. Seems like an imbalance to me.

Higher-level teams are popular because they give more XP and inf over time. If your team is steamrolling 0x8 it will probably be fine at 4x8 as well. You might get fewer drops in the same amount of time because each defeat will take longer, but it isn't that much slower than even-level content.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

In what games are you seeing this "rewards are equal regardless of effort put in" concept?

That is not what I said, but it makes a great strawman.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Right, you are the one who wants other people penalized for your own decision, and "I'm" the jerk. 

 

And no, that is not how "most MMO's" go, that is how single player games usually go. Most games use exactly what we have - the multi-reward system. You get things per kill. You get things for completing tasks. You get things for killing bosses/rare enemies. 

 

I mean, lets do a thought experiment here. For arguments sake, lets say they did just as you prescribed and suddenly made it so kills earned you nothing, and that completing tasks is what was rewarded. Do you realize what would happen?

 

First, I suspect a sharp SHARP drop in "players helping players", pretty much immediately. Because you suddenly made resources more of a pain to get. 

Secondly, it would take much more "effort" to get far "less". Hello stale markets.

Third, you can kiss the wide market goodbye. Farmers are likely a main suppliers of such markets. That means less converters, unslotters, catalysts, purple recipies, etc for everyone.

Fourth, have you even considered things such as "completing missions 1/day" feature?

Fifth, the farmers would figure out which tasks were the most profitable, and speed run those. And in all likely hood, they would do it alone.

 

If you think this change would magically solve the inf/minute ratio across different people and playstyles, I suspect it would only increase it. Possibly dramatically. Because right now, anyone can get "something." Under your system, only certain people would get somethings. Namely those that teamed would be rewarded the most. Which could encourage multi-boxing more, further diluting the pool of players.

 

So yea, that wouldn't pan out like you might think. 

It IS how most MMOs are set up these days. Heck even most of CoH is set up this way. Most activities have Merit Rewards which are set based on the expected time the activity takes. FFXIV is set up the same way.

 

But you are putting words in my mouth. At NO POINT did I suggest penalizing anyone. I haven't suggested making any changes at all. Stop saying that I did.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Wavicle

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

That is not what I said, but it makes a great strawman.

 

 

orly?

 

30 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I am saying all playstyles should be rewarded roughly equally, to the extent it is possible.

 

Sure about that?  If all playstyles are rewarded equally, doesn't that mean harder missions give the same as easy missions? Hard effort vs easy effort = same reward? You exactly are saying that.

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I am saying all playstyles should be rewarded roughly equally, to the extent it is possible.

 

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That is not what I said, but it makes a great strawman.

 

All playstyles include running no enhs at base diff versus fully loaded T4 with accolades running max diff. You are stating that one should get the same rewards over time as the other. So, yea, no strawman, this is what you are saying and it's absolutely ridiculous.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Neiska said:

 

 

orly?

 

 

Sure about that?  If all playstyles are rewarded equally, doesn't that mean harder missions give the same as easy missions? Hard effort vs easy effort = same reward? You exactly are saying that.

No, that's no what it means, and I think it's pretty obvious. I mean rewards over time, so harder missions should get rewarded more than easy missions.

It's just the mountains of minions that I think reward too much, and yet I am not suggesting changing it. It's just a discussion.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It IS how most MMOs are set up these days. Heck even most of CoH is set up this way. Most activities have Merit Rewards which are set based on the expected time the activity takes. FFXIV is set up the same way.

 

But you are putting words in my mouth. At NO POINT did I suggest penalizing anyone. I haven't suggested making any changes at all. Stop saying that I did.

 

By "nerfing farms", you are, penalizing farmers. I am not suggesting anything. "You" are the one saying all activities should be equal, regardless activity type, and by extension, other factors such as how many enemies there are, how fast you complete, etc. I mean, if you want to split hairs here, you have to click a Glowie in farms to complete. So in essence, they "are" doing missions too.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 

All playstyles include running no enhs at base diff versus fully loaded T4 with accolades running max diff. You are stating that one should get the same rewards over time as the other. So, yea, no strawman, this is what you are saying and it's absolutely ridiculous.

This is called reductio ad absurdum fallacy. Nice try though.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Most activities have Merit Rewards which are set based on the expected time the activity takes. FFXIV is set up the same way.

 

And yet speed runs are specifically done so that those doing them can farm merits at a vastly accelerated rate compared to those doing the content "normally." Why should the speed runners be punished?

[Wavicle]

Just now, Neiska said:

 

By "nerfing farms", you are, penalizing farmers. I am not suggesting anything. "You" are the one saying all activities should be equal, regardless activity type, and by extension, other factors such as how many enemies there are, how fast you complete, etc. I mean, if you want to split hairs here, you have to click a Glowie in farms to complete. So in essence, they "are" doing missions too.

But *I* did not ever suggest nerfing farms. In fact it was the devs that nerfed AE rewards already. So why do you keep coming at me like I am threatening your plaything?

[Neiska]

Whelp, I foresee this thread getting locked. Just no compromise to be had, its not even a discussion but an argument now. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And yet speed runs are specifically done so that those doing them can farm merits at a vastly accelerated rate compared to those doing the content "normally." Why should the speed runners be punished?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what time gating is for. And I hate it too, so, AGAIN, I am NOT suggesting changing ANY rewards in this game.

Just talking about what I think a good design would be. Why are you triggered?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Neiska said:

Whelp, I foresee this thread getting locked. Just no compromise to be had, its not even a discussion but an argument now. 

Because you're incapable of having a civil discussion with someone with whom you disagree? I guess so. Lock it down.

[Neiska]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Because you're incapable of having a civil discussion with someone with whom you disagree? I guess so. Lock it down.

 

I'm capable, you ignore other peoples comments or opinions, as if your own were superior in the matter. You make vague statements, then when someone calls you on them, you claim strawman, when its your own point that gets questioned. You say you want all activities equal, and yet claim you aren't out to penalize people who play more efficiently than others, which in a sense, 100% is affecting their gameplay, despite your protests of "I'm not after your plaything".