Confused about pylon testing - Latest dom looks good for ST damage in Mids, but took forever on a pylon

[Voltak]

5 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Thank you for your feedback. 

 

I've kept the soul mastery patron, for better or worse. Putting the +dmg ATO proc in midnight grasp was done and seems to be working well. I also re-slotted life drain and gloom, shifting more damage to gloom. 

 

I'll be getting assault radial hybrid and intuition radial alpha. Once those are T3, then damage should get noticeably better. Then I'll test again. 

That is going to impact your results time a lot. 

For pylon testing Cold Epic with the -res proc seems to be the way to go since the increased in dmg output is too important . 

So if you do pylon testing with soul, that's cool, just keep in mind it will not be the optimal set up, however if you do manage to herd a mob over to you, keep them permanently stunned around ya, then use soul master, that would be very cool too 🙂. 

I was not aware you were also doing pylon testing without T4 incarnates.  That also makes a significant difference 
For testing you want musculature and hybrid assault 
Test server is best place since you can switch to both sides of hybrid assault there

In any case, don't be disappointed, champ.  You are doing testing with far less than optimal conditions.  
Because of that, you are doing relatively well, my brother. 

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

I have no dog in this fight (as we'd say here), but I don't understand the 'hate' that @Voltak is generating. If anything he is of the same mindset that I am which is fie on spreadsheets and lets go and test it out.

 

Spreadsheets have a bad habit of not taking into consideration some under the hood mechanics or what. Voltak tested, presented results, seems good.

 

Heck, about same time as my EM/Fire Brute with Hybrid toggled on. Slightly better even.

 

What is there to dispute even? Or is it a case of believing he is lying about his testing? I'm not saying it is not the case but it is easily replicable if he posts the build used.

 

 

OP's case seems just either using a different secondary, or a different epic, or a build not as min maxed. All things normal and bound to happen.

Thank you as well.   
In the post just above this one, I pointed out some things which were not known earlier concerning the testing conditions the OP was working with. 
Now that he revealed these, that makes a big difference 

[Linea]

You should also keep in mind, T4 incarnates can contribute up to half of your perceived effective applied damage, and that Tier 4s are subjectively twice as effective as Tier 3s.  Those little tid-bits can completely skew and warp all your results.

 

Note I said perceived and subjective.  

 

And it gets much more complicated than that.   I have builds that behave almost exactly as stateded above, but I have others that don't.   I have a stalker that mids says is 350 dps, but pylons say 650 dps.  If the pylon is dead in a minute, the pylon is dead, I don't care what mids nor the log analyzer say, dead is dead.   Then you have proc builds and proc variance, where a build can vary from 450 to 650 dps, averaged over 10 runs it's still a mess, 20 it's still a mess, but if you do 40 or 50 runs the average finally starts to show itself.  Procs and Proc builds make dps a nightmare.  I used to only do 3 to 5 runs, now I have to do 20+ if it's a proc build.  (yes, that means clearing the whole zone, typically almost twice).  ... and heaven help you if you want to test multiple proc builds at once, I spent 8 hours straight one saturday testing a trio of proc builds.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Linea

[Voltak]

12 hours ago, Linea said:

You should also keep in mind, T4 incarnates can contribute up to half of your perceived effective applied damage, and that Tier 4s are subjectively twice as effective as Tier 3s.  Those little tid-bits can completely skew and warp all your results.

 

Note I said perceived and subjective.  

 

And it gets much more complicated than that.   I have builds that behave almost exactly as stateded above, but I have others that don't.   I have a stalker that mids says is 350 dps, but pylons say 650 dps.  If the pylon is dead in a minute, the pylon is dead, I don't care what mids nor the log analyzer say, dead is dead.   Then you have proc builds and proc variance, where a build can vary from 450 to 650 dps, averaged over 10 runs it's still a mess, 20 it's still a mess, but if you do 40 or 50 runs the average finally starts to show itself.  Procs and Proc builds make dps a nightmare.  I used to only do 3 to 5 runs, now I have to do 20+ if it's a proc build.  (yes, that means clearing the whole zone, typically almost twice).  ... and heaven help you if you want to test multiple proc builds at once, I spent 8 hours straight one saturday testing a trio of proc builds.

 

Another strong indication of why experienced Pylon testing should be voices to listen to. 

Things like these are matters that Mid's will not tell you anything about, nor city of data. 
Mids is not accounting for procs in pylon testing since when they go off is something that Mid's simply is not a good instrument to predict or measure any of it. 

The OP post of his times, his original post, should be no indication of how well the combo sets perform.  

There are many factors that will have to change or improve.  

Thanks, Linea. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Voltak

[Without_Pause]

On 10/11/2021 at 5:19 PM, Voltak said:

Chain:Smite-Midnight Grasp-Gloom-Moon Beam (Gather Shadows-Sleet when up)

 

Assualt Radial Embodiment (double dmg)

 

2:20  ~401.72dps

2:21  ~399.78dps

 

 

Assault Core Embodiment (+dmg)

 

2:13 ~416.13dps

2:04 ~437.96dps

 

The +dmg Dominator proc was in Midnight Grasp. Pure +dmg Hyprid slot did work a little better then the double hit

Sleet did have both (target aoe) -res procs in it

*** additional info --  Pylon testing will not go well with Soul epic since drain on a single target is not much dmg buff. 

This all changes if you are surrounded by good a mob of a good size , since the dmg buff increases substantially.  *** 

 

I looked at the scrapper thread on pylon times and searched for the word Dom. Two different builds came up. One being Dark/fire and another being Dark/ea. Both posted/claimed occasional sub 1:30 times which translates in the area of 500 dps.

[Voltak]

55 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I looked at the scrapper thread on pylon times and searched for the word Dom. Two different builds came up. One being Dark/fire and another being Dark/ea. Both posted/claimed occasional sub 1:30 times which translates in the area of 500 dps.

The issue is that my testing consisted of no primary being used.  I said this before. 
The player on his Dark/Fire, he had his pets out. 

The other one I see is not dark/Eng, but it's Fire / Eng , and on that one he was also using his primary.  

Had I used all 3 pets from primary, my times would be faster too. 

I only wanted to test the secondary. 

And, another thing I said before, and I will paste it here again -- 

Even if, only if,  Energy and Fire did beat Dark WITHOUT using primary , then keep in mind that STILL DOES NOT make Dark assault  mediocre.  
That is not the middle of the pack since it would mean that OUT OF ELEVEN assault sets, ONLY two have proven to be ahead of Dark assault. 
Out of 11 assault sets, that IS NOT MIDDLE ground at all;  that is not mediocre.  

So when someone made the claim that Dark was mediocre DAMAGE-wise,  it was  said that WITHOUT knowing any other pylon testing time for the rest of the assault sets.

That is what I had issue with -- Making a claim without any first hand experience, or making a claim without knowing results of any assault sets. 
So according to the information available , there is no justification for calling Dark Assault a mediocre set, NOT EVEN damage-wise. 

If it is established using ONLY secondary set without the primary that Dark is in 3rd place, that is NOT mediocre at all. 
That would be top 3 out of 11 sets. 
That is not the middle at all

So, my statement stands and it is not incorrect 


 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Without_Pause]

Correction, one used Dark and the other used Plant.

 

Put up times using your primary. The one using Dark mentioned UB. Not sure on any other pets. Where is the data showing /dark is third? I have searched on the Doms forum for pylon data and I'm honestly not seeing it. 

[Bionic_Flea]

Kanil has a Dark/Fire/Cold Dom that slightly edged out Nihili's Plant/Energy Dom, both with crazy DPS and times.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If dark assault can reach 350 - 400 DPS without any help from the primary then I'm content with that. At that point the extra survivability afforded by dark starts to carry quite a bit more value to me than the marginal extra damage one can get in exchange for giving away improvements in survivability. FWIW, recognizing that this thread morphed at some point into a disagreement about what constitutes "mediocre" vs "excellent, even if not the absolute highest DPS". Also in the vein of "FWIW", I tend to favor resistance shields in the epic / patron. Part of the price for that preference is that bypassing cold mastery pretty much assures doms I play won't deliver high end results for pylon tests. I'm OK with that.  

 

On a connected point, I'm currently trying to figure out how to get strong single target damage, AOE damage, *AND* survivability out of an earth / earth / ?? dom; earth control seems likely to work well for the new challenge content coming out and earth assault is my favorite dom secondary. And, this thread has provided concrete ideas to improve single target attack chains, which has been very helpful and is much appreciated. I'll also be able to re-visit a few shelved dominators, in fact, and potentially be able to make them enjoyable to play again.

 

Many thanks to those who've contributed to helping this thread dive as deeply into the question of how to maximize single target DPS as it has. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[MoonSheep]

edit: read some more, my post is no longer required but can’t figure out how to delete it

Edited October 25, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Voltak]

25 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

edit: read some more, my post is no longer required but can’t figure out how to delete it

Select hide 

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Correction, one used Dark and the other used Plant.

 

Put up times using your primary. The one using Dark mentioned UB. Not sure on any other pets. Where is the data showing /dark is third? I have searched on the Doms forum for pylon data and I'm honestly not seeing it. 

There is no data to support nor prove the claim that dark assault is mediocre 

 

I also added that if and only if those two did beat it then still would not make dark mediocre since only two would be proven out of eleven 

 

I am also stating that the incomplete data you said you don't like is what you posted 

 

Those other tests are different than mine 

 

They used primary 

 

I didn't use primary 

 

So still there is no data, no evidence to prove the claim that some person above said 

That dark's damage is mediocre 

 

The burden of proof is upon the person that claimed dark's damage is mediocre 

That person claims dark's damage is mediocre so that person needs to prove that 

 

I am saying that from what I see there's no evidence of that 

 

Hand shake? 

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Kanil has a Dark/Fire/Cold Dom that slightly edged out Nihili's Plant/Energy Dom, both with crazy DPS and times.

Used primary 

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Used primary 

I understand.  I'm not knocking you, or your testing.  I was responding to Without_Pause, but after reading further back I think he/she found the same ones I am mentioning.

 

Have you tested running your dark/dark with all your best powers and pets -- primary, secondary, and pools -- to see where you end up?

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I understand.  I'm not knocking you, or your testing.  I was responding to Without_Pause, but after reading further back I think he/she found the same ones I am mentioning.

 

Have you tested running your dark/dark with all your best powers and pets -- primary, secondary, and pools -- to see where you end up?

My personal aim, or my interest, was to get an idea for dark assault damage, and only dark assault 

 

That is why the test was done using only dark assault, not any other power set.

 

I was not doing this particular test to measure the whole of my dominator as far as dmg from the whole combo. 
I got more than enough testing doing very challenging things and I did those things well, so I am more than satisfied. 

 

So my test was very specific.

_______________________________________

What follows below is addressed to whom it may apply -->

 

Seeing my results and comparing some other things drive me away from accepting or supporting the empty claim that darks damage is mediocre as an assault set 

I don't see anyone else questioning the empty claim made by someone. 

I get a feeling that others are accepting a claim made, accepting at face value without any testing, without any evidence, to prove the claim. 

But when I say that I reject that claim and when I say there's no evidence to prove Dark's dmg is mediocre, I get a whole lot of pushback. 

Double standard?  

Why not agree with me that without any good evidence to prove the claim that Dark's damage is mediocre, there's no reason to accept that claim, and that the claim was made by someone with no experience doing testing  on a thread made specifically about pylon testing ?  Why not?  

Double standard?  

Examine yourselves here.  

No bad intent against anyone.  

Respectfully, 

Voltak 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Bionic_Flea]

Wut?  I had nothing to do with all that back and forth.

 

Test whatever you want, if you want.  I was just curious if you had tried taking down a pylon with all powers.  As you said, adding pets can only make it faster.  But perhaps, other than the pet, your dark assault chain is better than adding primary attacks.  Mezzes are usually not great attacks unless procced out.

[Voltak]

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Wut?  I had nothing to do with all that back and forth.

 

Test whatever you want, if you want.  I was just curious if you had tried taking down a pylon with all powers.  As you said, adding pets can only make it faster.  But perhaps, other than the pet, your dark assault chain is better than adding primary attacks.  Mezzes are usually not great attacks unless procced out.

With all 3 pets, the times would be shorter.  

I was not interested in testing that. 

I only wanted to test dark assault.  The testing was only to see dark assault without outside help from the other powers in the whole build. 
___________________


No, sorry.  The rest is not directed or addressed at you

I apologize. I should make the division clear

I edited the post 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

If dark assault can reach 350 - 400 DPS without any help from the primary then I'm content with that. At that point the extra survivability afforded by dark starts to carry quite a bit more value to me than the marginal extra damage one can get in exchange for giving away improvements in survivability. FWIW, recognizing that this thread morphed at some point into a disagreement about what constitutes "mediocre" vs "excellent, even if not the absolute highest DPS". Also in the vein of "FWIW", I tend to favor resistance shields in the epic / patron. Part of the price for that preference is that bypassing cold mastery pretty much assures doms I play won't deliver high end results for pylon tests. I'm OK with that.  

 

On a connected point, I'm currently trying to figure out how to get strong single target damage, AOE damage, *AND* survivability out of an earth / earth / ?? dom; earth control seems likely to work well for the new challenge content coming out and earth assault is my favorite dom secondary. And, this thread has provided concrete ideas to improve single target attack chains, which has been very helpful and is much appreciated. I'll also be able to re-visit a few shelved dominators, in fact, and potentially be able to make them enjoyable to play again.

 

Many thanks to those who've contributed to helping this thread dive as deeply into the question of how to maximize single target DPS as it has. 

 

 

 

Yes Dark Assault not being top dog compared to say Energy or Fire isn't such a big deal in terms of gameplay when you look at what else Dark Assault offers in the grand scheme of things.  It's my second favorite secondary.  

[Without_Pause]

The problem is laying claim yours is close to theirs or even where it ranks within all of the assault sets without doing equivalent testing or finding data which verifies what you are claiming. Science is based on verified data with as close as possible variables so one can look into those variables, ie Dark/* vs Dark/dark. Doing a test with two different methods(full build versus secondary only) isn't the validation you are seeking.

 

"There is no data to support nor prove the claim that dark assault is mediocre"

 

There also isn't data which supports the idea of it not being mediocre. I'm not saying you are wrong. I have my guesses. I'm saying there is a fundamental lack of valid data being used.

[Voltak]

3 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

If dark assault can reach 350 - 400 DPS without any help from the primary then I'm content with that. At that point the extra survivability afforded by dark starts to carry quite a bit more value to me than the marginal extra damage one can get in exchange for giving away improvements in survivability. FWIW, recognizing that this thread morphed at some point into a disagreement about what constitutes "mediocre" vs "excellent, even if not the absolute highest DPS". Also in the vein of "FWIW", I tend to favor resistance shields in the epic / patron. Part of the price for that preference is that bypassing cold mastery pretty much assures doms I play won't deliver high end results for pylon tests. I'm OK with that.  

 

On a connected point, I'm currently trying to figure out how to get strong single target damage, AOE damage, *AND* survivability out of an earth / earth / ?? dom; earth control seems likely to work well for the new challenge content coming out and earth assault is my favorite dom secondary. And, this thread has provided concrete ideas to improve single target attack chains, which has been very helpful and is much appreciated. I'll also be able to re-visit a few shelved dominators, in fact, and potentially be able to make them enjoyable to play again.

 

Many thanks to those who've contributed to helping this thread dive as deeply into the question of how to maximize single target DPS as it has. 

 

 

It would be very nice if testing was done, since this is a thread about pylon testing for the secondary, in this case Dark... It would be very nice if pylon testing isolating the secondary, would be done so we can prove or have evidence to make the claim about which one is 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. 

There's no corroborating material in regards to pylon testing and isolating the secondary that does this specifially

That's why I don't make claims about who is top or who is mediocre and so on. 

 

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, Voltak said:

That's why I don't make claims about who is top or who is mediocre and so on. 

 

Insert all the times you claimed dark wasn't mediocre.

[Voltak]

Just now, Without_Pause said:

The problem is laying claim yours is close to theirs or even where it ranks within all of the assault sets without doing equivalent testing or finding data which verifies what you are claiming. Science is based on verified data with as close as possible variables so one can look into those variables, ie Dark/* vs Dark/dark. Doing a test with two different methods(full build versus secondary only) isn't the validation you are seeking.

 

"There is no data to support nor prove the claim that dark assault is mediocre"

 

There also isn't data which supports the idea of it not being mediocre. I'm not saying you are wrong. I have my guesses. I'm saying there is a fundamental lack of valid data being used.

Let's go over what happened and see if this helps you -->

Someone made a claim that Dark's damage is mediocre. 

That claim was made with no evidence, no proof, no corroborating material. 

Who in this thread questioned that claimed or pushed against it ?    

No one except me, right?    And because I reject that claim, I get push back but not the person who made the positive claim ??  
Everyone else took it at face value?

The burden of proof is not upon me 

I cannot say Dark's damage is mediocre, and neither can anyone else, unless testing was done. 

The burden of proof is upon the person who made the claim that Dark's damage is mediocre.  

Also, taking a look at the available testing 400+ DPS for a secondary alone, not primary... there's no reason to call it mediocre.  

Mentioning Fire and Energy is only two powers out of 11.  

The claim was made basing 2 powers as ahead but forgetting that there are 11 powers.  

I said that IF, and only if, fire and energy would be tested and proven that alone, without primary, they are better than Dark, that STILL does not prove that Dark is mediocre since it would not be in the middle of the pack.  If those are the only two sets stronger, then Dark would be 3rd, and that's not mediocre at all. 

WE good now ?

[Voltak]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Correction, one used Dark and the other used Plant.

 

Put up times using your primary. The one using Dark mentioned UB. Not sure on any other pets. Where is the data showing /dark is third? I have searched on the Doms forum for pylon data and I'm honestly not seeing it. 

He did use all three pets.  That's a good chunk of additional damage. 

He even wrote it on the post 

"...timer started on casting ageless, which is then followed up by sleet->haunt-..."

I had no pets, he had 3 pets.  

My average time at top dmg set up was 2:08 
His average is around 1:47 
That is a difference of only 21 seconds but he has all 3 pets out for the whole fight. 
I have no pets at all. 

If you consider, only if you consider, that based on his results the damage can be called good, or top, or among the top, still no reason to call Dark assault mediocre at all, given that my test were done without all 3 pets. UB alone is quite the addition to dmg, no reason to view that as insignificant  dmg addition.   Now add the Haunt pets to all of that. 

Again, did you push back vs the other person who claimed that Dark assault is mediocre for dmg?  

you only pushing back against me, right?  

Why are you discriminating against me?  

I searched the whole thread and I don't see you one time calling that other person out nor pushing against that person for making baseless claims. 

I don't see you lecturing that person about "science" and so on. 

So why discriminate ?

Edited October 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Wobegone]

This is all so very strange.  

 

I thought my post was innocuous, perhaps not?  Based on my own feelings, I felt Dark Assault seemed fine, but was a bit behind Fire, Energy, and maybe even Psi for single target damage(the only ones I've ever played).  I didn't test these things, it was just my feeling while leveling.  So when I saw how vociferous the pushback against mediocrity was I looked up Pylon times.  It was the only reference point I had(none of my Dominators are level 50) I never meant to make you upset Voltak. 

 

Yea, I understand now that your own time didn't include the primary.  Sorry for any misunderstandings.  

 

But I'm a bit confused why you only tested the secondary.  Why post a Pylon time at all if you're not using your ATs full potential?  

 

Now, I agree with you that the burden is on everyone when claims are made concerning Pylon times.  Which is why I didn't respond when you resplied to my post.  I haven't done any Pylon times.   Your own Pylon time isn't useful either because the only other reference points available used all their powers.  

 

There was only one poster here who I thought had any hints of hostility.  The rest were simply asking questions.  I don't know anyone who has ever posted a Pylon time using only the Primary or Secondary.  So that confused me a bit, and seemed to confuse others as well.

 

I think you're taking things way too personally Voltak.  I don't see anyone discriminating against you.  No one is doubting Dark Assault's viability.  Heck, at this point I'm no longer sure that Dark Assault isn't a top tier set for single target damage, maybe it is.  

 

You've already proven that Dark/Dark is extraordinarily potent in the right hands so I won't ask you to do further testing yourself.  You've no obligation to do so.  I just wanted to explain why there was some pushback is all.  

 

[Bionic_Flea]

3 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I thought my post was innocuous, perhaps not? 

You're Ignatz the Insane, not Ignatz the Innocuous!  😜