Confused about pylon testing - Latest dom looks good for ST damage in Mids, but took forever on a pylon

[Arcadio]

30 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Thank you for pointing this resource out to me. I'm interested in trying it out, as I've revised my dom's build and would like to see how much single target DPS may have improved. 

 

How can I get information from the combat log into a file format or data format that would work for the combat logger?

 

I tried a direct "paste" into the different entry screens, but that didn't work. 

When you start /logchat it will start outputting the data in your selected window (which should be the combat window) out to a file in your CoH installation folder somewhere. Then you can just link to that.

[Voltak]

46 minutes ago, arcane said:

You seem to make a lot of evidence free claims though. Like every time you claim to be the first or only person to have done something in this game. 

  

That's not what I said

What I said is 

I was or am the first person to verifiably , again (key word here) VERIFIABLY do that ITF solo, with a dominator, with those challenge settings.  

Big difference when you include that word 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Voltak

[EnjoyTheJourney]

31 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

When you start /logchat it will start outputting the data in your selected window (which should be the combat window) out to a file in your CoH installation folder somewhere. Then you can just link to that.

Thank you. 

 

Carnifax mentioned this in his earlier post, and so the information was right there. But, I somehow didn't connect the dots. Now I know what to do. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Voltak said:

  

That's not what I said

What I said is 

I was or am the first person to verifiably , again (key word here) VERIFIABLY do that ITF solo, with a dominator, with those challenge settings.  

Big difference when you include that word 

 

How exactly is it verifiable that you’re the first to “verifiably” do something? It seems you’re using “verifiably” as synonymous with “uploaded to YT”. Making such bold claims while knowing nothing about 99+% of this game’s players... do you understand how it’s extremely difficult to interpret as anything other than beating your chest?

 

I have the same cringe reaction to PvP threads about the “best players in the game”. Like who on earth doesn’t actually see that as transparently bullshit.

[Voltak]

This is very very simple. There's nothing complicated here.  

I am the first one to present the corroborating material to show that a Dominator has solo'd the ITF under the "Master of" challenge settings with no inspirations at 54 x 8 notoriety settings. 

Can we verify that anyone else has done it ?  No?  Is there any evidence that anyone else has done it before?  No. 
Until proven otherwise, no one else has done this before I did it.  
That is why the crucial word "verifiably" was written. 
So...
There's no corroborating material out there to verify that someone else has Solo'd the ITF using Master of settings , without inspirations as a Dominator with 54 x8 notoriety settings.   

What's your problem with it?  Why are you getting heated up about it?  How is this irritating you and why?

That's just stating what it is. 

Nothing else is meant by it. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Voltak

[arcane]

50 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Until proven otherwise, no one else has done this before I did it.  

I am of the opinion that the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim. Until proven, we have no way of knowing no one else has or has not done this before you. You don’t get to claim every thing that can’t be disproven. That is illogical and not how the world works.

 

But telling all the same that you’re willing to just brazenly claim to be the best with no support. Some people would have some shame about something that silly.

Edited October 20, 2021 by arcane

[Without_Pause]

This has been so horrendously derailed I'm borderline wanting to ask for it to get locked but there is the occasional decent piece of data.

 

I do know Dark has never really been known for excelling at ST damage as it is more known for its utility. There were buzzsaw builds back in the day. I even was running a Dark/elec brute.  Dark got reworked so it was harder to pull off and Siphon Life can cut into the DPS.

 

Pylon tests while interesting, are pretty much the direct opposite of what happens in game. If Voltak is hellbent on verifying things with personal experience there's an easy way to do that. Grab /dark, /fire, /em, and /earth sets. Pimp them out and then run the pylon test and see who has the best time. There's even a test server for this. Until then, this is nothing more than a meandering internet pissing contest.

[arcane]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

 

Some helpful reads. I know Wikipedia isn’t a reliable source, but this isn’t exactly a controversial subtopic.

 

”True until proven otherwise” is a just another way to say “not true”, in this instance.

Edited October 20, 2021 by arcane

[Voltak]

Again, I fail to see why this is hard for you to understand, so allow me explain it another way. 
No one said "no one has done this before me".   You are erecting a strawman using a claim nobody made. 
I made the claim that my Dominator is the first Dominator to verifiably solo the Master ITF challenge with inspirations DISabled, at a notoriety setting of 54 x8
That is different. 
That claim is made because there is no evidence that someone else has done it before I did it.  I said VERIFIABLY, no one has verifiably done this before me. 
This is different than saying "No one has done it before me". 

TO say that no one has verifiably done this before me... this is what's called a "negative claim".  
So now we move to proving a negative.   This is simple, all we have to do is look at the evidence of absence.  

After careful searching the internet, even old forums, there is no evidence, no corroborating material that anyone has verifiably done what I did. 
This is a logical method of proving a negative claim. 

From your own source -- 

"... evidence of absence (is) a typical method to fulfill the burden of proof for a negative claim"
Let me make it clear -->  I am NOT presenting absence of evidence, which means that no research has been done.  You are making an assumption if you think I did not search for this. 

More importantly, I am claiming evidence of absence, I have done the research, as I said.  After doing the research the result was that there is no evidence that anyone else has done this before I did it. 

Has anyone else verifiably done what I did?   Is there evidence anyone else has?  
Is there an evidence of absence upon which I draw the conclusion?  There is indeed. 

Anyone else is welcome to do the research as well since the instruments to do so are the same I used and available to all. 

I really don't know why you are taking an issue with me.  This thread is about pylon times and dark assault.  


 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Voltak

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Thank you. 

 

Carnifax mentioned this in his earlier post, and so the information was right there. But, I somehow didn't connect the dots. Now I know what to do. 

Yup, Choose File > Upload > [Navigate to Coh Logs folder] > Double click > Upload

 

As before just make sure the game is closed or it's a copy of the log file (due to file locks I think)

 

That uploads and runs the 1st file parser on it (drop all non-combat log message like chat, split the one log file into one per session). Then you click the one you want to view which triggers the combat parser on that sub-log for that log in. A session is counted as a Log on, although you can start a new one ingame with

 

/l STARTPARSE $name

(Parser splits on these too). 

 

Hope it helps. Note I do store the log files on the site, so you can reopen then with the UUID but channel chat gets blitzed.

 

I should also point out that it calced my DPS slightly lower than the Pylon formula dicated. I really should try test it again with something less oddball than an Illusion / Dark controller. If anyone else does the same (calcs PylonTime DPS vs Parser calced DPS) I'd love to hear the results. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Carnifax

[Voltak]

36 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

This has been so horrendously derailed I'm borderline wanting to ask for it to get locked but there is the occasional decent piece of data.

 

I do know Dark has never really been known for excelling at ST damage as it is more known for its utility. There were buzzsaw builds back in the day. I even was running a Dark/elec brute.  Dark got reworked so it was harder to pull off and Siphon Life can cut into the DPS.

 

Pylon tests while interesting, are pretty much the direct opposite of what happens in game. If Voltak is hellbent on verifying things with personal experience there's an easy way to do that. Grab /dark, /fire, /em, and /earth sets. Pimp them out and then run the pylon test and see who has the best time. There's even a test server for this. Until then, this is nothing more than a meandering internet pissing contest.

If I may respectfully address you on this -->. 

WHen I first wrote my comment, I did so to say that Dark Assault's dmg is not mediocre.  Mezmera claimed that Dark's assault dmg is mediocre, but Mezmera has not done any tests 

This thread was made by the OP and it was directly about Pylon testing with Dark assault. 

I presented information about pylon testing with dark assault

With the results obtained, there are no grounds for me to say the Dark assault is mediocre

I never made the claim that Dark assault is the best.  Are you very clear on this?  I don't think you want to erect a straw man.  I really don't think that's your intention, but it is important to know what I am NOT saying as much as it is important to know what I am saying. 

I respectfully have to say that Mezmera made a claim about dark assault being mediocre but did so without any corroborating material nor tests in this thread about pylon testing with dark assault, so no solid basis for that claim. 

 

I also stated that pylon results do not depend solely on getting info from Mids. 
What you get from Mids will not produce a pylon test result. 

The whole build matters, the animation times for each of the powers you use during the test, all that matters.  

Anyone's testing time will change after making changes to build, sequence of the powers to use (chain) and so on, wether they use their primaries in conjunction with their secondaries, how many procs you fit in,  and so on. 

In the end, nothing but testing. 


Wether something has or does not have popularity for doing something, that's not evidence for proving wether the set is  mediocre or not in dmg. 

I remember when I posted my fight vs a Lvl 54 AV solo and I killed the AV while the Lore pets were on cool down. 

Another poster came and said that he did not know that Dark had enough ST dmg to take down an AV lvl 54 and after watching my video he did say he needed to adjust what his idea was of Dark assault. 



Can we agree on that ?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Voltak

[arcane]

FWIW I’m not sure why Dark Blast wouldn’t do well against AV’s. It may not be the best secondary for damage, but it’s got a solid snipe, perfectly good animation times/DPA’s, and ofc the easy survivability. 

[Ignatz the Insane]

33 minutes ago, Voltak said:

I presented information about pylon testing with dark assault

Right.  How does that compare to other Dominator Pylon tests?  There is a Dark/Fire/Cold that has 1:27 and a Plant/Energy at 1:28.  *Shrug*  Your Dominator certainly has enough DPS to defeat +4 AVs, and you've shown that in the right hands a Dark/Dark is a formidable character.  But it isn't inaccurate to say Dark Assault is middle of the pack in single target damage.  I'm just happy that middle of the pack is more than sufficient for some of the most difficult content!  

 

As an aside, at least one other person has done a Master ITF with a Dominator-A Mind/Psionic.  And after playing on several TFs and Itrials with them, I have no reason to doubt it.  They just don't bother posting on the forums.  When I asked them to post their build on the forums their reply was "%$#@ no! Besides, it's the player not the build".    I can neither confirm nor deny they used the 'f'' word, but I suspect so. It was hilarious but also true. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I'm not very technically inclined, and so I'll stick with a written summary of a quick test I did with a new build. 

 

The new build does better. I am a bit confused by the output, though. In case somebody wants to look at it, there is the UUID: 

 

https://www.carnifax.org/?uuid=6ea513cd-e104-4537-af28-4b4fb7764fc8

 

Basically, DPS starts at 225ish, and then declines to about 155ish by the end. I can see some fall-off happening from a bit of lag here and there. And, for the last 30 seconds or thereabouts I became so sleepy that I definitely lost DPS (I stopped when I realized I was losing focus). But, that's still a lot of DPS to gradually lose, according to the chart, and DPS fluctuations in-game didn't seem to line up with a steady DPS decline. 

 

The percentage of total damage done by each power is as follows:

 

21% - midnight grasp

19% - moon beam

19% - smite

14% - gloom

  6% - 2 gladiator's javelin toxic dmg procs

 

... with the remainder of the damage coming from life drain (seldom used) and other damage procs. 

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Voltak said:

WHen I first wrote my comment, I did so to say that Dark Assault's dmg is not mediocre.  Mezmera claimed that Dark's assault dmg is mediocre, but Mezmera has not done any tests 

This thread was made by the OP and it was directly about Pylon testing with Dark assault. 

I presented information about pylon testing with dark assault

With the results obtained, there are no grounds for me to say the Dark assault is mediocre

I never made the claim that Dark assault is the best.  Are you very clear on this?  I don't think you want to erect a straw man.  I really don't think that's your intention, but it is important to know what I am NOT saying as much as it is important to know what I am saying. 

I respectfully have to say that Mezmera made a claim about dark assault being mediocre but did so without any corroborating material nor tests in this thread about pylon testing with dark assault, so no solid basis for that claim. 

 

I did say DAMAGE-wise it is a mediocre assault.  It's ST dps is meh compared to other assaults that you can compare and contrast against if you actually played almost all of the Dominator assaults like some here have.  Being that my main was a Mind/Dark dom until they revamped Energy I think I have a little experience with the set.  

 

I did not say overall Dark Assault is mediocre.  It is a good set because of the heal and -tohitt.  The pbaoe is one of the better pbaoe''s on a dom, I actually enjoy using that one.  The utility of Dark Assault is what makes it shine, which others are pointing out.  

 

Again I consider your opinion null since you feel some right to dictate how someone is allowed to use their control powers that you have no familiarity with.  

 

Write your follow-up diatribe, I try no to pay too much mind to someone once I've ascertained their mental acuity. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Mezmera

[Voltak]

5 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Right.  How does that compare to other Dominator Pylon tests?  There is a Dark/Fire/Cold that has 1:27 and a Plant/Energy at 1:28.  *Shrug*  Your Dominator certainly has enough DPS to defeat +4 AVs, and you've shown that in the right hands a Dark/Dark is a formidable character.  But it isn't inaccurate to say Dark Assault is middle of the pack in single target damage.  I'm just happy that middle of the pack is more than sufficient for some of the most difficult content!  

 

As an aside, at least one other person has done a Master ITF with a Dominator-A Mind/Psionic.  And after playing on several TFs and Itrials with them, I have no reason to doubt it.  They just don't bother posting on the forums.  When I asked them to post their build on the forums their reply was "%$#@ no! Besides, it's the player not the build".    I can neither confirm nor deny they used the 'f'' word, but I suspect so. It was hilarious but also true. 

First, let me address the ITF issue ->

1. You stated another Dominator successfully did the Master of ITF challenge.  Can this be verified?  Link?  I would like to check it out.  If it cannot be verified, and if this was done after I did mine, then my statement still holds. 

2. The ITF I did was under the following difficulty settings 

1. No inspirations allowed (they were disabled) and this is beyond "Master of settings".
You can actually do the Master of ITF with inspirations enabled, this is a fact, but I did my run with an ADDITIONAL difficulty setting, which is a big deal in regards to degree of difficulty. 
2. NO temps allowed (disabled ), no amplifiers used
3. No deaths 
4.  54 x 8 notoriety. 

Thus my claim still stands -- I am the first person who has VERIFIABLY done the ITF under THOSE SETTINGS and successfully with a Dominator 
My achievement can be verified and it's posted for anyone to verify it themselves. 
This is the CRUCIAL factor here. 
__________________________________________________________

Now on to the Pylon testing

Please remember a significant different between the other testing and the testing posted above --

In the testing done above for Dark assault, the PRIMARY set WAS NOT USED at all.  This is an important factor 

Had the primary been used the pylon testing time would be different and certainly faster since once you release the 3 pets there's additional DPS involved. 

The other even more pertinent fact that still upholds dark as NOT mediocre is that there are 

ELEVEN ( 11 ) assault sets. 

If WITHOUT using primary powers pylon testing did show ( and I said above in this same thread  that FIRE I have already seen beat Dark in pylon testing )

Even if Energy and Fire did beat Dark WITHOUT using primary , then keep in mind that STILL DOES NOT make Dark mediocre.  
That is not the middle of the pack since it would mean that OUT OF ELEVEN assault sets, ONLY two would be ahead of Dark assault. 
That IS NOT MIDDLE ground at all , that is not mediocre.  

When Mezmera made the claim that Dark was mediocre DAMAGE-wise,  Mezmera said that WITHOUT knowing any other pylon testing time for none of the assault sets. 
That is what I had issue with -- Making a claim without any first hand experience, or making a claim without knowing results of any assault sets. 
Still, according to the information available , there is no justification for calling Dark Assault a mediocre set, NOT EVEN damage-wise. 
If it is established using ONLY secondary set without the primary that Dark is in 3rd place, that is NOT mediocre at all. 
That would be top 3 out of 11 sets. 
That is not the middle at all

So, my statement stands and it is not incorrect 

Dark assault is NOT in any way a mediocre set, not even damage-wise. 

Can we agree on that?  
Handhsake ?  

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

5 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

I'm not very technically inclined, and so I'll stick with a written summary of a quick test I did with a new build. 

 

The new build does better. I am a bit confused by the output, though. In case somebody wants to look at it, there is the UUID: 

 

https://www.carnifax.org/?uuid=6ea513cd-e104-4537-af28-4b4fb7764fc8

 

Basically, DPS starts at 225ish, and then declines to about 155ish by the end. I can see some fall-off happening from a bit of lag here and there. And, for the last 30 seconds or thereabouts I became so sleepy that I definitely lost DPS (I stopped when I realized I was losing focus). But, that's still a lot of DPS to gradually lose, according to the chart, and DPS fluctuations in-game didn't seem to line up with a steady DPS decline. 

 

The percentage of total damage done by each power is as follows:

 

21% - midnight grasp

19% - moon beam

19% - smite

14% - gloom

  6% - 2 gladiator's javelin toxic dmg procs

 

... with the remainder of the damage coming from life drain (seldom used) and other damage procs. 

Two Dark players I know of in testing used Cold epic, with a - resist proc as well. 
Cold epic Makes a big difference in pylon testing.  
Even the Dark/Fire mentioned above used it.  

Also the +dmg ATO proc placed in Midnight Grasp makes a big difference 
The more that proc activates the greater the dmg buff you will receive and they do stack 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

I did say DAMAGE-wise it is a mediocre assault.  It's ST dps is meh compared to other assaults that you can compare and contrast against if you actually played almost all of the Dominator assaults like some here have.  Being that my main was a Mind/Dark dom until they revamped Energy I think I have a little experience with the set.  

 

I did not say overall Dark Assault is mediocre.  It is a good set because of the heal and -tohitt.  The pbaoe is one of the better pbaoe''s on a dom, I actually enjoy using that one.  The utility of Dark Assault is what makes it shine, which others are pointing out.  

 

Again I consider your opinion null since you feel some right to dictate how someone is allowed to use their control powers that you have no familiarity with.  

 

Write your follow-up diatribe, I try no to pay too much mind to someone once I've ascertained their mental acuity. 

Concerning pylon testing your claim that Dark Assault is mediocre damage-wise, I rebutted above 

Go read and you will see you are still wrong. 
You, Mezmera,  and let me say I have no beef with the other posters here, but you, Mezmera, not only do you resort to personal insults

( like saying I suffer from some Mental disorder, which you bet I will report since that is 1. uncalled for 2. clear violation of policy here on the forums.  3. illustrates what kind of person you are)

But you come here to this thread to make statements like the ones you have made in a thread about pylon testing (which is one way to measure up ST DMG) you come to the thread making claims when you have ZERO first hand experience in the matter 
AND 
You did not know, at the time you made the statement of any results that prove that Dark Assault is mediocre in ST dmg. 

Not only do you talk without knowing but you were also wrong, and worse, you still don't see what you are doing, which according to what has already been observed you have done and will probably continue to do -- talk and make statements about things you have no solid knowledge about certainly not any first hand experience.  

But you think it is others who are  suffering from some mental disorder 
Right... 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Voltak

[GM Impervium]

Okay look...

 

It's getting heated in here, so I need you all to cool down with the insults and stuff.

Besides, we all know that Empathy is the best set against a pylon, so anything else is just noise =P

[Mezmera]

52 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

Besides, we all know that Empathy is the best set against a pylon, so anything else is just noise =P

 

Pfft...heroes...

 

Pain Domination is the villain answer to Empathy everyone knows anything villain is at minimum 10x better than anything heroes started with.    Plus it has "domination" in its title, has to be superior on that alone.  

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Mezmera

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, GM Impervium said:

Okay look...

 

It's getting heated in here, so I need you all to cool down with the insults and stuff.

Besides, we all know that Empathy is the best set against a pylon, so anything else is just noise =P

Thanks a lot for this. 

No need for insults. 

[Linea]

Keep in mind, 'Zone Pylons' are vastly different from 'LFG Event Pylons', just in case you accidentally tested vs the 'LFG Event Pylon' Versions.   All testing should be done vs 'Zone Pylons' to be backwards compatible with previous testing.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Linea

[EnjoyTheJourney]

5 hours ago, Linea said:

Keep in mind, 'Zone Pylons' are vastly different from 'LFG Event Pylons', just in case you accidentally tested vs the 'LFG Event Pylon' Versions.   All testing should be done vs 'Zone Pylons' to be backwards compatible with previous testing.

 

 

I'm definitely testing on "Zone pylons"; I didn't even know that "LFG Event Pylons" existed. 

 

Thank you for the "heads up", nonetheless. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

20 hours ago, Voltak said:

Two Dark players I know of in testing used Cold epic, with a - resist proc as well. 
Cold epic Makes a big difference in pylon testing.  
Even the Dark/Fire mentioned above used it.  

Also the +dmg ATO proc placed in Midnight Grasp makes a big difference 
The more that proc activates the greater the dmg buff you will receive and they do stack 

Thank you for your feedback. 

 

I've kept the soul mastery patron, for better or worse. Putting the +dmg ATO proc in midnight grasp was done and seems to be working well. I also re-slotted life drain and gloom, shifting more damage to gloom. 

 

I'll be getting assault radial hybrid and intuition radial alpha. Once those are T3, then damage should get noticeably better. Then I'll test again. 

[Sovera]

I have no dog in this fight (as we'd say here), but I don't understand the 'hate' that @Voltak is generating. If anything he is of the same mindset that I am which is fie on spreadsheets and lets go and test it out.

 

Spreadsheets have a bad habit of not taking into consideration some under the hood mechanics or what. Voltak tested, presented results, seems good.

 

Heck, about same time as my EM/Fire Brute with Hybrid toggled on. Slightly better even.

 

What is there to dispute even? Or is it a case of believing he is lying about his testing? I'm not saying it is not the case but it is easily replicable if he posts the build used.

 

 

OP's case seems just either using a different secondary, or a different epic, or a build not as min maxed. All things normal and bound to happen.