Taking another look at Ice Control

[Tater Todd]

What improvements or changes do you think Ice Control needs to make it more competitive damage wise or control wise?  Or do you think it's fine as is?

 

 

The Immob improvements definitely helped with damage, placement and control of Ice Control but many of said that it still needs more since -Recharge isn't enough when it comes to Soft Control.

[Tater Todd]

Old discussion on the topic:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120906125357/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=282489

 

I remember the old discussion on the topic.  In fact I even posted in the old discussion my name was Tater Todd :P.  Are we not allowed to ask questions that were already covered in the old forums?  Is this forum just a continuation of the old one and that means older topics are not allowed to be discussed?

[Without_Pause]

Ice is one of the strongest sets in terms of control. It is offset by its lack of damage. I know people have talked about it needing to be tweaked, but I don't see it.

[City_of_Jedi]

 

At the minimum I would like to see the damage removed from Flash Freeze. Yes this breaks the cottage rule.

 

I don't think it does. 

 

I was one of the most outspoken advocates for adding damage to Ice Melee/Frozen Aura.  (The damage was previously zero.)  What the devs giveth, the devs can taketh away.  Adding or removing damage should not be in violation of the rule unless damage is the main effect.  In the case of Flash Freeze, clearly it is not.  Sleep is.  The damage is so low that it might as well not exist.  So let it.

 

The set was painful on a Dom.  Ice Slick was great.  But it's a one trick pony.  The set needs help.  Like most of you, I'm concerned about what the effect would be of a massive overhaul.  But what we have now is lackluster, at best.  Better synergy is one pathway.  Not the only one, but possible.  I have no concrete suggestions at this time apart from removing the damage component of Flash Freeze and reducing the endurance cost of Arctic Air.  This alone will not be enough.  But it's a move in the right direction. 

 

[oedipus_tex]

The only things I would change about Ice Control are:

 

- Lower endurance cost of Arctic Air from 1/sec to 0.5/sec. The current cost is too high and makes this set very hard to play with certain secondaries, particularly Sonic Resonance.

- Give Jack Frost the Ice Patch power so he contributes meaningfully to controls (he is one of the worst pets as it stands)

 

Arguables:

- Remove requirement that Glacier be cast on the ground. This is sometimes disruptive when you need to leap into a pile of enemies.

- Make AA a non-notify power like almost all other Confusions. True this one also has a Slow, but as it stands it sometimes drags aggro toward the user that can make using this power without Defense IOs too deadly

 

 

 

Flash Freeze is not a great power but if you decide to solo (mainly on a Dominator) it's not a terrible way to open. You can also use it to detoggle enemies who cast Dispersion Bubbles. I could see maybe making this a non-notify power like Mind Control's sleep power, but that might be encroaching on Mind's territory too much.

 

Shiver is a terrible power on this set (IMO) but I don't know that I'd change it. It's a duplicate of a Blaster secondary power and not unique to this set.

 

The recent change to Immobilizes buffed Ice Slick tremendously and I definitely don't see a need for further improvements there. 

 

[speczero]

The only things I would change about Ice Control are:

 

- Lower endurance cost of Arctic Air from 1/sec to 0.5/sec. The current cost is too high and makes this set very hard to play with certain secondaries, particularly Sonic Resonance.

- Give Jack Frost the Ice Patch power so he contributes meaningfully to controls (he is one of the worst pets as it stands)

 

Arguables:

- Remove requirement that Glacier be cast on the ground. This is sometimes disruptive when you need to leap into a pile of enemies.

- Make AA a non-notify power like almost all other Confusions. True this one also has a Slow, but as it stands it sometimes drags aggro toward the user that can make using this power without Defense IOs too deadly

 

 

 

Flash Freeze is not a great power but if you decide to solo (mainly on a Dominator) it's not a terrible way to open. You can also use it to detoggle enemies who cast Dispersion Bubbles. I could see maybe making this a non-notify power like Mind Control's sleep power, but that might be encroaching on Mind's territory too much.

 

Shiver is a terrible power on this set (IMO) but I don't know that I'd change it. It's a duplicate of a Blaster secondary power and not unique to this set.

 

The recent change to Immobilizes buffed Ice Slick tremendously and I definitely don't see a need for further improvements there.

 

Just a note here that Ground cast like Glacier can be cast with a single key by using the bind or macro powexeclocation. For instance the following would cast Glacier on the target with a single press of the key t-  /bind t  powexeclocation target Glacier  . You could also use the following to cast it on the ground at your location-  /bind t powexeclocation me Glacier  . You can find other uses of powexeclocation in these same forums in the general forums. Powexeclocation was added by the I25 team and i would like to thank them for this great addition.

 

Edit: went ahead and added the info here

 

Powexec_Location:

Added /powexec_location, a client-side slash command to allow use of location targeted powers without having to click.

 

Usage: /powexec_location loc power

loc is a location specifier. There's several different things you can use here:

me or self - Both target the power on yourself.

 

target - Your currently selected target. If you have no target, the power is not activated.

 

direction:distance - direction can either be one of six cardinal directions relative to the player: forward, back, left, right, up, down, -or- it can be a number. If it's a number, it is taken as an angle in degrees. 0 is straight in front of you, 90 is right, etc. It can also be camera, to indicate the direction the camera is facing, including elevation.

distance is either a number in world units (feet), or the keyword max, which means to use the maximum range of the power.

 

power is the name of the power, just like what you'd use with /powexec_name. You can put quotes around the name to make it look cleaner if you want, but they are optional.

 

Useful examples:

/powexec_location me Fire Imps

/powexec_location target Tar Patch

/powexec_location camera:max Teleport

[AngriestGhost]

- Remove requirement that Glacier be cast on the ground. This is sometimes disruptive when you need to leap into a pile of enemies.

 

This should be in affect according to the patch notes.  If you still aren't able to cast Glacier in the air, then it needs to flagged for another look.  Also Flash Freeze previously couldn't affect flying enemies, but should be able to now.

[Redlynne]

Here's a variation you might want to use for powexeclocation ... just bind to whatever key(s) you want to use.

 

"powexecname Glacier$$powexeclocation target Glacier"

 

What this does is it will either cast Glacier at your $Target (if you have one) ... OR ... will bring up the target rings for you to place one wherever you want to put it (if you have no $Target selected).

The reason that this works is because the later powexec "supercedes" the first one if and only if the later one is executable, and that execution requires a $Target be already selected.

[GlacialGadgeteer]

Just a clarification on the past three comments, Glacier is a PBAoE and always centered on the caster - i.e. doesn't give a target ring. The macro advice is, however, applicable to a power like Ice Slick.

 

Also, AngriestGhost is correct. Glacier now works during flight after the most recent patch.

[oedipus_tex]

Interesting that they removed the ground requirements on those powers. They always annoyed me on live.

 

Taking another look at Ice Control a few days after my last post and having more time to experience the live game, I'm now beginning to think I was wrong in my original assessment. Ice Slick was designed as the premier "knockdown patch" control power. Right now it's being outperformed by Bonfire... on my Blaster. Ice Slick meanwhile can't be improved beyond the base power.

 

So either something in Ice Control should justify its extremely low damage, or Bonfire should get nerfed. I honestly think the latter. The kb to kd proc is easy to get (I already have 2) and makes Bonfire a longer lasting Ice Slick on a short cooldown with longer duration. And also, Bonfire is available to Blasters, of all things.

 

if they decide to just buff Ice Control to compensate, doubling the Confuse duration of Arctic Air would be a very interesting way to do it.

[t0beyeus]

Perhaps what Ice Control needs is a unique passive. Perhaps the -Recharge is given a name like "Frost" and at 3 stacks the next damaging Ice Control power "Shatters" the target for extra damage.

 

So Chilblain, Block of Ice, Frostbite, Flash Freeze and Glacier apply 1 stack. Shiver could apply 3 stacks so the next move "Shatters". This might make Shiver worthwhile to take.

 

Honestly my biggest gripe about Jack Frost is how plain he looks. I think they should make him a recoloured Red Cap model in Ice Armor.

 

Arctic Air needs some sort of rework. If it was a ground targetted AoE of swirling winds that confused those inside it would be great.

[Coyote]

I've mapped out a few Ice Control characters who are tremendously strong defensively.

 

They all have something in common: a strong -ToHit effect. Time, Rad, Dark and even Plant secondary all turn Ice Controllers into super debuffing Controllers. The mobs still attack... slowly. And often at each other. And for less damage than usual. And the little damage that comes through is easily healed.

 

So you can build Ice Controllers who are strong on the defensive side... their -Recharge adds to those of the secondaries, and their Immobilize and KD abilities reduce damage even more, and the Confuse adds to that. You're not stopping mobs from acting, you're just making their acting almost irrelevant.

 

The problem with them is damage, especially low-end. I'm not sure where it could be added, or if Arctic Air's Confuse effect should be a bit stronger, but while they can play very safely, they don't do much damage. The Prestige attacks help a lot with this, but I don't like saying that a set is fixed because it has Prestige attacks available to it.

[oedipus_tex]

The issue that has long has faced Ice Control is not low damage (Earth, after all has low damage) but whether that low damage is justified by the degree of control the set offers. Ice has always been a low damage set that also offers very limited hard mezz control. The theory, I suppose was that -Recharge was enough to make up that gap.

 

The sets that have often put pressure on Ice Control are Fire and Plant, both of which do great damage and offer fantastic controls. Ice Control's Fire/Plant rivalry was partly cemented by the fact that classically when a Fire or Plant troller joined the party they didn't just contribute more to you, their powers actually shut down your main contribution (Ice Slick).

 

That's since been addressed. Funnily enough though, along with the fix is an alteration that makes Fire Control's knockdown patch significantly better than one Ice has. Here are the stats for Ice Slick versus Bonfire slotted with kb to kd:

 

 

Bonfire - Recharges in 60 seconds, 45 second duration. 100% chance to knockdown per tick

 

Ice Slick - Recharges in 90 seconds, 30 second duration. 8% chance to knockdown per tick (note: it does tick faster than Bonfire but not fast enough to catch up to the 100% knockdown chance)

 

 

Ice Slick is possible to perma on a high end perma Hasten build. Bonfire can be perma'd with a single ISO. In short, Bonfire was built on the assumption it wasn't a knock patch that competes with Ice Slick. In the meta of the game, though, it totally outclasses by such a huge margin that I think the old "we don't consider set bonuses in balance equations" rule should be reconsidered.

 

It IS true the kb to kd proc is needed for Fire Control to get the full effect. However I don't consider this proc rare at all. I have two of the already. I am currently rolling a Fire/Storm pretty much exclusively because this proc destroys what Ice has to offer.

 

 

I have some additional ideas for things Ice Control could do:

 

 

- Add -Range to Shiver similar to a Tanker taunt

- Make AA merely suppress and not completely detoggle when you are mezzed (I would cry real tears of joy if they did this. note that this is how Blaster sustains work in the i24 rules.)

- Give Jack Frost meaningful controls that stack with Ice's controls. At this point, I'd even be fine with giving him the full size Ice Slick power. Ice Slicks stack on each other and this would at least Ice Control's patches compete with Fire's, assuming Fire is allowed to keep its crazy good patch

 

 

Note however that I'm unconvinced Bonfire should be anywhere near as good as it is. I mentioned previously it is available to Blasters. My Rad/Fire/Fire Blaster has knockdown patch that outperforms my Ice Controllers and Dominators. I don't think any IO or set bonus should make that huge a change in a power. if nothing else, the knockdown rate in Bonfire should not be as strong as it is. I know we are meant to have powerful characters but that particular example is so extreme it grabs my attention right away.

 

[Guffnat]

Since there is no Controller Primary that adds -Res I think this would be a good place to start with.

 

• Increase the confused duration in AA from 3.7 to 5.0 and reduce the End usage
  
• Make Shiver a PBAoE that applies -Res
  
• Flash Freeze applies -Regen (comparable to Time Crawl from Time Manipulation)
  
• Reduce Ice Slicks recharge to 60s and let it apply -Res
  

 

Oh... in addition Ice and Storm Powers should have the same color palette for recoloring available as Earth.

[AngriestGhost]

Since there is no Controller Primary that adds -Res I think this would be a good place to start with.

 

• Increase the confused duration in AA from 3.7 to 5.0 and reduce the End usage
  
• Make Shiver a PBAoE that applies -Res
  
• Flash Freeze applies -Regen (comparable to Time Crawl from Time Manipulation)
  
• Reduce Ice Slicks recharge to 60s and let it apply -Res
  

 

Oh... in addition Ice and Storm Powers should have the same color palette for recoloring available as Earth.

 

-Res would definitely make ice more appealing.  I could conceptually justify it as  things being frozen to the point of brittleness.  I also like the idea of a Shatter mechanic, some sort of flag that would proc a sort of a critical dealt in cold damage. 

 

Something I think more in line with a change we could see  is simply adding - to hit into Ice Slick.  In terms of why, aiming is difficult on an unstable surface (the same as Earthquake).  Mechanically, wiffing that first shot makes -recharge more effective.

 

A bit on Bonfire, I believe the kb to kd procs are supposed to reduce the rate of knockback when slotted.  I have to double-check the patch notes to be sure

[Guffnat]

Yeah, it's not 100% anymore when you slot the KB>KD into Bonfire.

[Coyote]

A "shatter" mechanism would be great, but may require a lot of coding and rewriting of descriptions.

 

Adding -Res or -Regen to powers would help.

 

Adding damage to AA would be another way to improve the set. Also, increasing its Confuse duration a bit.

 

Shiver is not very useful, since the set wants to be in the middle of opponents for AA, and already has a ton of -Recharge. It needs to do something extra like -Res, -Regen, or damage.

[oedipus_tex]

The argument that used to erupt on the Controller boards any time we spoke of changing Shiver is there are a fair number of Ice players who skip Arctic Air and take Shiver instead as their main control power. That's heresy to me, but they exist. There was always a lot of pushback anytime someone mentioned making Shiver work better with the rest of the set.

 

RE: Bonfire, keep in mind we are talking about a power available to Blasters. I recently semi-retired an Ice Dominator because his main control other than AA (which is good but not amazing) was Ice Slick, and my Rad/Fire/Fire Blaster can outperform his knock patch with Bonfire while dealing astronomically more damage. Bonfire's knockdown does fire at a slower rate than un-IO'ed Bonfire, but still ticks faster than Ice Slick, and provides more out-the-box control.

 

Building on that, perhaps the fix to Ice Control is to change the duration/recharge ratio of Ice Slick to match Controller Bonfire (45 second duration, 60 second recharge) so at least it doesn't take a heavily IO'ed build to match Bonfire's coverage. I have mixed feelings about whether Earth Control's Earthquake should get a similar change.