Focused Feedback: Threat Duration Enhancements (formerly Taunt)

[Booper]

This is a Focused Feedback Thread

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• The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.
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Threat Duration Ehancements

Taunt enhancement categories are being renamed "Threat Duration Enhancements". These enhancements now will all boost Taunt and Placate duration. This has no impact on multi-enhancement set strength.

 

The following powers now accept Threat Duration Enhancements and sets:

• Bane Spider Soldier> Placate
• Blaster > Ninja Training > Smoke Flash
• Mastermind > Ninjas > Call Jounin
• Sentinel Epic > Ninja Tool Mastery > Kemuridama
• Pool > Concealment > Misdirection
• Pool > Presence > Pacify
• Stalker > Ninjitsu > Smoke Flash
• Stalker > Broad Sword > Placate
• Stalker > Claws > Placate
• Stalker > Dark Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Dual Blades > Placate
• Stalker > Electrical Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Energy Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Fiery Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Ice Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Kinetic Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Martial Arts > Placate
• Stalker > Ninja Blade > Placate
• Stalker > Psionic Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Radiation Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Savage Melee > Placate
• Stalker > Spines > Placate
• Stalker > Staff Fighting > Placate
• Stalker > Street Justice > Placate
• Widow Teamwork > Placate

[GraspingVileTerror]

Totally subjective, as I've not got in to testing this change yet, but I am very pleased to see Placate Powers included as viable Set destinations.  

I look forward to defeating an energy with a Psionic Proc in Pacify!  "Just . . . go to sleep.  Forever."

[tidge]

It is a net positive that a power like Placate can actually accept anything meaningful as an enhancement. I do feel that Pacify (from Presence) is still going to be a crap choice with many things working against it:

• It doesn't behave like Placate (e.g. crits) for AT which can choose Pacify. This isn't a deal-breaker for me, but other AT can 'double up' certain signature powers with Power Pool choices, why not allow this for something as flat-out weak as Pacify? I'm NOT asking for all AT to get the possibility of crits after a Placate.
• Pacify is not an auto-hit. It is a Pool power, so it should NOT be auto-hit, just like Provoke is NOT a PvE auto-hit (compared to Taunt or Confront)
• Pacify is only a single target, it would become more viable if it had an AoE component. As it is, (potentially) Pacifying one enemy in a spawn is of very limited utility.
• It works against each of the two other power picks in the Presence pool. Provoke is an AoE Taunt analog, Intimidate is a single-target control power.

On the last point, the ONLY utility (*1) I have gotten out of Pacify has been when I have been playing low-level characters with 'aggressive' difficulty settings with higher level enemies but small spawn sizes. This is because the PC can usually eliminate the minion-levels but needs a breather against the LTs and Bosses. Players who want to experience what I am describing can try Ouroboros flashbacks with "no enhancement bonuses" in lower level content... pick an Arachnos mission... of course they probably won't have Pacify in their build! If Pacify had the AoE component (with a small cap and small AoE, just like Provoke) it would become infinitely more useful, provided that the player actually adjusts strategic play (e.g. kiting enemies).

 

(*1) I am a big fan of the Presence Pool, and I know that it doesn't get much love in forum builds. I've worked with it on a number of my characters. It's a real pain to have to take two choices from Pacify, Provoke and Intimidate before getting either of the two stellar powers: Invoke Panic or Unrelenting. I object less to the barrier to entry (i.e. 2 crummy choices that work against each other) than the fact that one of the three crummy choices (Pacify) is nigh useless.

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

It is a net positive that a power like Placate can actually accept anything meaningful as an enhancement. I do feel that Pacify (from Presence) is still going to be a crap choice with many things working against it:

• It doesn't behave like Placate (e.g. crits) for AT which can choose Pacify. This isn't a deal-breaker for me, but other AT can 'double up' certain signature powers with Power Pool choices, why not allow this for something as flat-out weak as Pacify? I'm NOT asking for all AT to get the possibility of crits after a Placate.
• Pacify is not an auto-hit. It is a Pool power, so it should NOT be auto-hit, just like Provoke is NOT a PvE auto-hit (compared to Taunt or Confront)
• Pacify is only a single target, it would become more viable if it had an AoE component. As it is, (potentially) Pacifying one enemy in a spawn is of very limited utility.
• It works against each of the two other power picks in the Presence pool. Provoke is an AoE Taunt analog, Intimidate is a single-target control power.

On the last point, the ONLY utility (*1) I have gotten out of Pacify has been when I have been playing low-level characters with 'aggressive' difficulty settings with higher level enemies but small spawn sizes. This is because the PC can usually eliminate the minion-levels but needs a breather against the LTs and Bosses. Players who want to experience what I am describing can try Ouroboros flashbacks with "no enhancement bonuses" in lower level content... pick an Arachnos mission... of course they probably won't have Pacify in their build! If Pacify had the AoE component (with a small cap and small AoE, just like Provoke) it would become infinitely more useful, provided that the player actually adjusts strategic play (e.g. kiting enemies).

 

(*1) I am a big fan of the Presence Pool, and I know that it doesn't get much love in forum builds. I've worked with it on a number of my characters. It's a real pain to have to take two choices from Pacify, Provoke and Intimidate before getting either of the two stellar powers: Invoke Panic or Unrelenting. I object less to the barrier to entry (i.e. 2 crummy choices that work against each other) than the fact that one of the three crummy choices (Pacify) is nigh useless.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point on Pacify working against the other powers...

I have a scrapper who taunts and pacifies (part of a concept party with a lot of hate sharing and then promptly trying not to die).

And I definitely don't see the problem with terrorizing one enemy and pacifying a 2nd.

 

Definitely really agree with your overall take on the Presence pool though - people act like Relentless is trash and invoke panic not worth talking about, but I've found both to be incredibly good... 

... Or they would be if the rest of the pool wasn't set up to ensure you always regret at least one power spent to get there, and probably both!

 

I understand the campaign to expand the Placate benefits since it's basically "hey copy/paste what's already on deck," but I think it's more likely to get a different set of buffs in a future patch.

Example: simply having its recharge cut in half, and maybe gaining a secondary effect like -Confuse resist debuff...

Things that would make it appealing even to a Stalker, and/or allowing it to open up new game interplay.

 

Either way though, thank you for shining a light on the fact that even this power can take Threat enhancements.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Replacement
Typo

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

I'm not sure I understand your point on Pacify working against the other powers...

I have a scrapper who taunts and pacifies (part of a concept party with a lot of hate sharing and then promptly trying not to die).

And I definitely don't see the problem with terrorizing one enemy and pacifying a 2nd.

 

Fundamentally: Pacify is for avoiding fights (or ditching aggro), while Provoke is explicitly seeking it and Intimidate is a straight-up attack. That's what I mean about Pacify working against the other T1 Presence Pool powers (to first order).

 

My (solo) experience has been that when engaged with enough enemies where I want to Pacify (only one, by design of the current power) of them, it only buys me very little time if the others in the same spawn aren't dealt with. Intimidate has served a better use (again, for me), and it can stack with other Fear effects. If I am NOT engaged with an enemy, there is no reason to even toss a Pacify. Kudos to you for juggling Provoke (or was it an actual Taunt?) with it... since Provoke is a ToHit check w/ AoE, it isn't straightforward in the heat of a battle to know which ones I actually hit with Provoke as opposed to those who just noticed me and want to fight.

 

Thinking over my characters with heavy investment in the Presence pool, I don't know that I would respec from a 6-slot Provoke for a 6-slot Pacify. If Pacify had a small AoE, it would be slightly more useful in things like Mayhem missions, or in those cases I described above (when your character is getting debuffed like crazy from a relatively small spawn).

 

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think a new thread might need to be started in the regular Suggestion/Feedback Board to discuss Pacify and Presence in general.   I've wanted to share some thoughts, but couldn't find a way to justify the discussion in a feedback thread dedicated specifically to the Enhancements.

 

UNLESS . . . we're possibly going to discuss Pacify as it relates to:  Annoyance, Triumphant Insult, Mocking Beratement, and Perfect Zinger ( https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Enhancement_Sets#Taunt ).

[tidge]

On 11/7/2021 at 6:43 PM, GraspingVileTerror said:

I think a new thread might need to be started in the regular Suggestion/Feedback Board to discuss Pacify and Presence in general.   I've wanted to share some thoughts, but couldn't find a way to justify the discussion in a feedback thread dedicated specifically to the Enhancements.

 

UNLESS . . . we're possibly going to discuss Pacify as it relates to:  Annoyance, Triumphant Insult, Mocking Beratement, and Perfect Zinger ( https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Enhancement_Sets#Taunt ).

 

As you may recall, there are a few of us who keep making the same points over-and-over, for example:

Keep this in mind: with new slotting options for Pacify, I think the power at least moves out of the "who thought this was a good idea?" category.

 

My suspicion is that the power-that-be are essentially ignoring the Presence pool, possibly because of a blunt dismissal that it 'isn't worth taking'.  I'm torn on whether or not I see ignoring Presence as a good thing or not... for what a player can do with it (for the rather high price of entry) it is quite powerful. For example, I don't think we'd get a pool power like Unrelenting in the 'modern' (i.e. HC) game.

 

I see the Presence pool as sort of a Bizarro^TM version of the Fighting pool: Presence offers tools that most AT can benefit from (Threat! Control! Self-Heal! Self-Boost!), but doesn't have great options for Enhancements, i.e. there are extremely limited options for mules, and there is only one PVP set (Panacea) option to leverage and there is the requirement to take TWO mediocre powers (pick any two; Provoke, Pacify, Intimidate as opposed to a single choice from Fighting) before picking either one of the great powers (Invoke Panic, Unrelenting). If BOTH Tough and Weave were locked behind having to take BOTH Boxing and Kick, imagine how much grief would exist.

[UltraAlt]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:31 PM, GraspingVileTerror said:

Totally subjective, as I've not got in to testing this change yet, but I am very pleased to see Placate Powers included as viable Set destinations.  

I look forward to defeating an energy with a Psionic Proc in Pacify!  "Just . . . go to sleep.  Forever."

But if you do damage to someone that is pacified, they can attack you.

Which would apply first? 

 

I'm assuming the powers effects go off first and then the proc has a chance to go  off, so you could be waking them up by the psi attack to attack you until they are placated again.

Just saying ...

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

My suspicion is that the power-that-be are essentially ignoring the Presence pool, possibly because of a blunt dismissal that it 'isn't worth taking'.

 

All the powers are there to be used.

 

I will admit that I don't use the Presence Pool as much as say Leadership. I'm a Leadership junkie. But the Presence pool has its place. Since I play by character conception, I definitely have characters who should have the Presence Pool. They are more likely to take it for the Fear effects. It's a bit annoying to have to go through the placates and taunts to get to the fear powers, but, if my character conception doesn't call for the placate or taunt, then don't even bother putting them in my tray.

A couple slots lost for me isn't that big of a deal. I never use sprint, and I rarely use brawl after level 20. So the game already has it set-up for me to take powers out of my tray that I'm not going to use. 2 more on a character isn't a big deal to me, but I'm playing based on character conception.

 

Honestly, I hadn't even read this (info about the change to taunt enhances being slottable by placate powers) before making my two test characters. Earth/Earth Dom and Seismic/Earth Blaster (I think I have those power set names and archetypes correct). But I made my Earth/Earth Dom with Presence pool selections. 

It fit (character conception) so I picked it.

 

Perhaps this isn't a power pool that Mids ever lists?

I don't use Mids so I don't know.
The DEVs didn't create Mids.

 

[tidge]

38 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

A couple slots lost for me isn't that big of a deal. I never use sprint, and I rarely use brawl after level 20. So the game already has it set-up for me to take powers out of my tray that I'm not going to use. 2 more on a character isn't a big deal to me, but I'm playing based on character conception.

 

Let me simply add these thoughts: it's not as if anyone spends a power pick (or one-of-four power pool choices) on Brawl. Brawl also has more enhancement slotting options than Pacify, Provoke, Intimidate, and Invoke Panic combined.

 

A new "threat" set would have to be extra special for me to give up 6-slotting Mocking Beratement, and some balance consideration would have to be given to the ability for some AT to be able to slot "threat" enhancements in attacks (EDIT: and Auras)... but I think there is a LOT of available design space (and need) for focusing on enhancement sets for Threat and Fear. I'm tempted to add (non-LotG/Shield Wall) Buff/Debuff to this complaint, but being able to cross slot the accurate/non-accurate versions of enhancements adds lots of variety to those powers.

Edited November 11, 2021 by tidge

[aethereal]

If you slot Placate with the Perfect Zinger damage proc, and the proc fires, does it break the Placate?

[UltraAlt]

52 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Let me simply add these thoughts: it's not as if anyone spends a power pick (or one-of-four power pool choices) on Brawl. Brawl also has more enhancement slotting options than Pacify, Provoke, Intimidate, and Invoke Panic combined.

 

A new "threat" set would have to be extra special for me to give up 6-slotting Mocking Beratement, and some balance consideration would have to be given to the ability for some AT to be able to slot "threat" enhancements in attacks (EDIT: and Auras)... but I think there is a LOT of available design space (and need) for focusing on enhancement sets for Threat and Fear. I'm tempted to add (non-LotG/Shield Wall) Buff/Debuff to this complaint, but being able to cross slot the accurate/non-accurate versions of enhancements adds lots of variety to those powers.

 

On 11/2/2021 at 6:32 PM, Booper said:

Taunt enhancement categories are being renamed "Threat Duration Enhancements". These enhancements now will all boost Taunt and Placate duration.

 

"Threat Duration" isn't a set.

"Taunt" is being renamed "Threat Duration"

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

If you slot Placate with the Perfect Zinger damage proc, and the proc fires, does it break the Placate?

 

@drbuzzard tested it and said no the procs fire on use and then it placates you into hidden status and no aggro.  

[drbuzzard]

Yeah, the placate seems to come last after the proc.

 

I noticed a couple other odd things from the placate. It seemed to have variable aggro suspension. So for example, you're in the second mission of the ITF and you're destroying the crystals which spawn an EB led team to come after you. If you placate that team, sometimes they would forget all about you, and other times they would eventually get back on track. Also when I was fighting Romulus in mission 3, I was fighting him with a bunch of the surrounding lackies. I placated the bunch and beat down the AVs. One of the bosses walked away and never came back. The other boss moseyed away, but came back. I was certainly under the aggro threshold at that point so it couldn't be that. 

[KaizenSoze]

6 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Yeah, the placate seems to come last after the proc.

 

I noticed a couple other odd things from the placate. It seemed to have variable aggro suspension. So for example, you're in the second mission of the ITF and you're destroying the crystals which spawn an EB led team to come after you. If you placate that team, sometimes they would forget all about you, and other times they would eventually get back on track. Also when I was fighting Romulus in mission 3, I was fighting him with a bunch of the surrounding lackies. I placated the bunch and beat down the AVs. One of the bosses walked away and never came back. The other boss moseyed away, but came back. I was certainly under the aggro threshold at that point so it couldn't be that. 

Yes, I have seen exactly this behavior. Mobs lose aggro and just walk away or remain passive long after the placate timer has ended.

 

I was doing the cauldron EB-AV fight in ASF. One of the EB just stood there even after I hit him 5-6 times.

 

Still probably existing placate bugginess. Just more obvious with more targets.

[Replacement]

While testing Crey I noticed I could 100% of the time placate and, if Hide was on when it wore off, they would forget about me.

 

Is that normal live behavior? I remember stuff from back in the day saying once a mob knows you, they don't forget, and placate is basically a block to targeting... But apparently not?

 

@Booper when the next build comes along, can we re-org the feedback threads to include Placate in the Threat thread instead of Sleep?

Not only is there a lot of overlap on the topic, but the placate/sleep OP doesn't even mention the new slotting.

 

[KaizenSoze]

Side note, nice trick when soloing the ASF cauldron fight. Once, the turrets activate, placate the AV while taking out the turrets.

 

The turrets are too widely spaced for an effective placate, but at least you don't have the AV shooting at you also.

 

On topic, I have the AV just seem to forget about me when clearing turrets after a placate.