Control balance pass: whachu want?

[...]

Broad strokes to minor details, all thoughts are welcome. These are not firm suggestions. 

 

I would also like to acknowledge

- city of statues is probably bad 

- powercreep is bad

- you have the option to jranger, but I'm coming at this from a discussion perspective. So please let me know why you're jrangering.

 

I'll start. I'm sure most of these are not new thoughts. 

 

- considerably reduce confuse durations (to match holds). As a hard control, I don't see why they should last so long. Sure, "xp penalty," if by penalty you mean a net gain in xp/hour in most scenarios. Note: my only 50 is a plant fire Dom. I'm voting to nerf myself here. 

 

- considerably increase sleep durations (mind control single target sleep and electric control sleep patch notwithstanding). As a not-so-hard control, sleeps might as well last a long time. This + page 3 autohit = nice.

 

- find a way to have controlled mobs have a chance to "break free" at different times. Sort of like how many dots tick for variable durations, but I wouldn't use the "cancel on miss" formula in use for dots. Something that has an accelerating probability with time, so that as controls last longer and longer, the probability of a mob breaking free becomes more and more certain. As long as the "average" control duration was kept about where it is right now, I could see this working out nicely with my next point to combat "city of statues."

 

- reduce recharge on AoE holds. Honestly, most of them don't feel like a competitive powerpick relative to other options, even pool powers. Dark and Earth are good, and @Mezmera loves total domination, but meh.

 

- reduce the accuracy penalty on AoE holds.  

 

- normalize/speed up single target immobilize and single target hold cast times. Honestly. Stone Prison and Stalagmites are only getting updated cast times in page 3 because Blasters are getting them.

 

Other thoughts? Disagree? Hurl insults?

[arcane]

Fear should probably generate containment. Maybe confuse.

 

Increase recharge on Seeds of Confusion.

Edited November 16, 2021 by arcane

[Aurora_Girl]

Increasing duration in sleeps seems kinda pointless when any damage breaks it. I suggest having some sort of lingering "drowsy" debuff when sleep is broken, maybe -tohit and DMG as a thematic way to make sleeps relevant. 

[...]

13 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Increasing duration in sleeps seems kinda pointless when any damage breaks it. I suggest having some sort of lingering "drowsy" debuff when sleep is broken, maybe -tohit and DMG as a thematic way to make sleeps relevant. 

 

I see your point, and counter that there are times when you want to leave mobs sleeping. Like solo, or ambushes / adds.

 

But yes, often in groups it would be pointless. 

 

Perhaps the added difficulties would change that!

[Uun]

Currently, confuse and immobilize have the same duration for ST and AoE powers, while holds and sleeps have shorter durations for AoEs (although there's only one ST sleep I'm aware of). I wouldn't be opposed to reducing confuse duration for AoEs. The duration for Mass Confusion should be longer than for Seeds of Confusion given the longer recharge. I think ST confuses are OK as is.

 

Agree that recharge of AoE holds should be decreased, maybe from 4 to 3 minutes. I think the recharge for Mass Confusion should also be decreased to match.

 

Changes in the accuracy penalty would have to include AoE stuns as well, so not sure about that. I think the duration of AoE holds (excluding Shadow Field and Volcanic Gasses) should be increased modestly from 15 to 18 seconds.

 

Agree with @arcane on his suggestions. 

[Mezmera]

Confuse powers are fine how they are.  Raise the recharge on Seeds of Confusion so a t5 power doesn't seem like it outdoes a t9 power.  If they don't want to raise the recharge to MC levels on Seeds then they may want to look into giving Mass Confusion some kind of accuracy and or self buff ability.  Giving enemies Leadership powers will affect confusing well enough without breaking those powers.  

 

Giving enemies a Vengeance ability for each spawn will go a ways to give them a "break out" but not stacking like Nemesis does so that you can still take notice they've broke out and now need another application of control to get them back in order.

 

For sleeps it seems they are just fine with that auto-hit ability.  Yes it's a light control but being able to hit everything to turn off certain things when you need to will likely be a good ability to have handy.  Looks like the dev team has a direction for sleeps, it seems good so far.  

 

AoE hold recharge is fine where it's at.   You want to avoid power creep this is where you leave the recharge where its at and leverage the other powers in your control set.  Or would you think its cool to just walk through maps mass spamming aoe hold and confuse powers at your leisure?

 

These things are pretty well done on the new hard mode Aeon SF.  My control feels very significant with this new stuff.  

 

Now yes I don't contend that each control set shouldn't get a look at to adjust some things here and there individually.  There are some underperforming sets for sure, and one overperforming one for certain.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by Mezmera

[Greycat]

About the only thing I disagree with Mezmera on with that post is the AOE hold recharge. That got knocked down hard, years ago, and could use a tweak - there's a good bit of space between "better recharge" and "constant spam," and if constant spam is a worry, a recharge cap (or just not letting it be affected by recharge) can be tacked on.

[Mezmera]

40 minutes ago, Greycat said:

About the only thing I disagree with Mezmera on with that post is the AOE hold recharge. That got knocked down hard, years ago, and could use a tweak - there's a good bit of space between "better recharge" and "constant spam," and if constant spam is a worry, a recharge cap (or just not letting it be affected by recharge) can be tacked on.

 

This is also speaking from the Dominator perspective where Domination makes control feel like actual control.  Most control feels just about right on doms because they don't have a support set to fall back on so they need that aggressive style for survivability.  I also do think Controller's could use something specific to help them in control for certain things.  The recharge on these powers feel about right but on controllers the aoe hold doesn't net you the control a Perma-dom gets. 

 

For the subtle AT differences I think leave the aoe hold where they're at but allow controllers to get the benefit on this power of an additional mag hold proc so they can get some unique control of their own.  That way they don't have to slot some gimmick +2 mag hold proc and can make use of damage procs just as well as doms.  

 

There should be subtle tuning between the AT's, I leave controllers to hash that out for yourselves.  

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

From general to specific.

 

• Normalize the animation time of Single Target Hold, Single Target Immob, and AoE Immobilize. The original intent was for all of these powers to do identical damage, except for Fire which should do more. However, an oversight in how animation time contributes to damage resulted in some of these powers having 2.5x the DPA of others, with no rhyme or reason for which sets do high damage versus low. A balance pass similar to Blasters would be highly appreciated.
  • Plants AoE immobilize does x2 as much damage as it "should." This is probably a bug, because neither the ST Immob or ST Hold do this. 

 

• Apply archetype modifiers to pseudopets (like was done with Dark Miasma). This would result in Controllers getting slightly better numbers from a few powers that include debuffs, like Earthquake, Quicksand, and Shadow Field, as well as the correct bonus duration to controls like Synaptic. Doms have the same modifier as pets for these attribs so would gain or lose nothing, Controllers would gain +25%.

 

• Update the power order for backloaded sets. In general I'm in favor of this restructure:
  1. T1 Immob
  2. T1 Hold
  3. AoE Immob
  4. Cust Power 1
  5. Cust Power 2
  6. Cust Power 3
  7. Cust Power 4
  8. Pet
  9. AoE Hold

A little variation is fine. However I don't think any of these sets should be waiting until level 26 or 32 for key controls. It may be wishful thinking asking for the pet at a lower level, but it would make the trip on these characters much less frustrating IMO. AoE Holds are generally not useful at the level you currently get them and only get decent with IOs. 

 

• Make AoE Holds (other than Earth and Dark) the nukes they are meant to be. Adding a substantial debuff to them would be a nice touch. The Electric one for example feels like a power that should either tank endurance and/or end resist, but doesn't. 
  • At a minimum, remove the Accuracy penalty. Blast sets get bonus accuracy in their nukes. The Accuracy penalty in these powers just means they aren't useful on un-IOed builds.

 

• Communicate a philosophy for the role pets are supposed to play. I feel like with Mastermind pets everyone has a pretty good idea what the pets are there to do and how they are meant to contribute. I don't get that sense with Control archetypes. Its fine for them to be different from each other, I'd just like to understand what determines that Gremlins, for example, have almost no defense or resistance and mediocre attacks while other pets are tanks or have Mag 3 Holds.

 

 

 

Specific changes, from critical to wish list.

 

• Do something about Mind Control on Controllers. Not sure what, just something. Mind Control for Controllers needs a big boost somewhere to make it relevant.

 

• Fix Synaptic Overload on Dominators. This is a vital fix. The set has no AoE powers that Dominate currently, other than the standard AOE hold and immobilize. This power currently Dominates the first target but not the rest. It should follow rules for other AoE controls. In its current state it feels bugged.

 

• Update Arctic Air on Dominators. Solution here is less clear. The power doesn't Dominate but should at least do something. As is, it is strictly weaker than the Controller version. Dominators do not have a secondary buff set to make up for the short Confuse duration they get using this power. 
  • AA should also probably have its Recharge reduced from 15 to around 5. Getting detoggled out of it is extremely debilitating, makes the whole build center on maintaining mezz protection. 

 

• Update Propel on Dominators. Not sure what specifically needs to happen here. Gravity is supposed to be a "blast-troll" set. Propel is a signature power supposedly demonstrating this, but it's worse than most Assault powers and routinely skipped. Making it an actual AoE blast on Doms would potentially work. As would making it an actually worthwhile control. Open to ideas.

 

• Make Shiver at least as good as the buffed Blaster version. Not sure this needs a write up since it seems obvious to me, just want to make sure it's nto missed.

 

• Reduce animation time on certain Control powers. There are two main classes of control power that seem to lag to me, the ones that feel like they are meant to be spammed but drag, and the ones that feel like they are meant to be placed mid combat but the animation is so long its often better to just not. Here are some examples of both classes:
  • Jolting Chain (2.07) - I'd aim to match the quick AoE immobs (~1.32)
  • Mass Hypnosis (2.1) - I'd aim to match the quick AoE immobs (~1.32)
  • Quicksand (3.1) - I'd aim no more than 2 sec
  • Spirit Tree (3.2) - I'd aim no more than 2 sec
  • Bonfire (3.2) - I'd aim no more than 2 sec, this one is least concern due to how powerful the knock proc is in it tho

Edited November 18, 2021 by oedipus_tex