Thoughts on the Sentinel (feedback/theorycrafting ahoy)

[Nerva]

So the Sentinel.  I've seen a lot of people talk about it calling it the 'redheaded stepchild' of ATs and the like.  As a post-Sunset original archetype, it kinda feels awful to see that kind of thing bandied around.  I'm not going to say that those people are wrong to do so, however.  Sentinel lacks something that most other ATs have, and that, namely, is their role in a party.

 

Let's look at the Sentinel from three angles.  Their Inherent, their powersets, and the unique permutations on their powers vs. similar powers in other ATs.

 

The Sentinel Inherent is Opportunity.  According to the wiki, Opportunity slightly reduces the base defense and increases the damage an attacked enemy takes from additional attacks from both the Sentinel and allies, and occasionally opens up a whopping 25% damage increase periodically.

 

Now, one look at that and you'd think "Oh, they're a support.  They support by attacking the enemy and thus making it easier for other attackers to deal their damage."  And yes, they can do that.  But the rest of their design doesn't bear this out.

So let's look at their powersets, specifically Blast primary and Defense secondary.  You might see this combo and immediately draw parallels with Scrappers and Stalkers.  "Oh, they're a ranged equivalent of these classes, or a tougher Blaster" you might think.  And it would be reasonable, except that doesn't jive entirely with their inherent.

Let's look at how their powers differ from others.  Their defenses are Scrapper-level, but their primary lacks a taunt.  Their Blast sets are roughly Corruptor-level, but have less range than Corruptors, Defenders, and Blasters.  So just what roles could they fill in a party?

Ranged DPS?  Well, in theory yeah, but they're not particularly good at it.  Even with the bonuses from their inherent, they really do not have the kind of offensive moxie to really DPS.  Compared to a scrapper, dom, blaster or corruptor, they're really not putting out numbers.  Further they have shorter range - sure, they have the defenses to survive a bit of splash, but they aren't rewarded for putting it to use.  If they're ranged DPSing, they're not making use of their Defense set.  If they're in the face of a target, they're just risking splash for no gain; Sentinels lack the powers in other Defense ATs that increase their effect for every enemy in close proximity, like Against All Odds in Tanker's Shield Defense.  This makes sense because their primary would generally keep them out of reach of these powers.  The only exceptions are the occasional PBAoE click, like Bio Armor's Parasitic Leech, or the click and two mez toggles in Dark Armor.

Offtank, like a Scrapper?  Well no, they have no aggro control.  Sure, they can survive hits more easily, but in any situation where they're teaming with a partner that deals more damage than them, foes are going to peel off and attack their buddies.  Sure a Sentinel can survive damage but can't make use of that to any real benefit in a party.

Support?  Aside from their inherent, they really have no support abilities.

 

So what can a Sentinel actually do?  Well, they can gather for Controllers and Doms; once the enemies are locked up in CC, taunts are unnecessary.  They also make fine soloists, since there's nobody else to take their aggro, and they have the defenses to survive what they get into.  But that's kinda limiting, isn't it?

 

So... on to a suggestion:

Give Sentinels back the stacking-per-enemy powers... but with a twist
Sentinel stack-per-enemy powers would not simply count the enemies in a radius around them.  Instead, they're frontal arc powers with the range on them increased.  And rather than being defensively oriented, like most stack-per-enemy powers, make them offensively oriented - increasing the user's damage and ToHit, and applying things like -regen, -res, -def, and -tohit to enemies, akin to Against All Odds - the more foes in sight, the meaner they get!

Thus, sentinels are rewarded for keeping their targets in sight and working the edges of the mob, instead of being in the thick of it.  They're close enough to catch some splash, but they have the defenses to survive it.  They help their allies by pointing themselves at the biggest threat in a mob and not only pounding it mercilessly, but also encouraging others to focus it down by slapping fat Opportunities on it.  Meanwhile their malevolent gaze either strengthens them or withers the capabilities of the rest of the mob and makes the Tanker or Brute's life easier.

 

This makes the Sentinel better at dealing damage, gives them something to support a party, and gives their secondary set something to offer even if they're not at immediate risk of catching hits.  Win for all concerned, I think.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Nerva
Fixed a run-on sentence

[A Cat]

14 minutes ago, Nerva said:

Offtank, like a Scrapper?

I'd say that's more of a Brute role. Scrapper to me is on the spectrum with Stalkers in killing the boss, but with more AoE than stalkers for when you're not killing the boss. Only a couple sets have taunt auras for scrapper whereas the Brute versions of those armors all have it. Plus, no punch-voke where the Brute at least has a single target one. Also single target taunt instead of AoE taunt. Of course the danger of dealing with generalities is that Elec melee has bad single target on Scrapper (or all versions minus the Stalker version, which is deservedly considered the best Elec melee for plugging that hole.)

 

As far as the suggestion, how about just increase the size of the range but keep it a PBAOE zone for that buff? It's less cool thematically, but if you are a right-click-holder-downer like me, then you're not always necessarily looking at the enemy you're attacking between shots. 

[Cancrusher]

Quote

Your thoughts?

 

Sure.  I like it. 

 

I've browsed topics with several different takes on how to perk up the class.  Most of them have merits.  At this point, I'd get behind just about anything that would give the class a noticeable boost and make it more of a valued contribution to team play.  👍

[aethereal]

Honestly, the group role that a Sentinel should probably have is "relatively survivable DPS."  It's kinda boring, but it's a fine role.  We can talk until we're blue in the face about what the role of Scrappers, stalkers, and at least some Brutes should be, and yes, they potentially can do some sophisticated group role, but my experience is that most of those ATs fil the role of "relatively survivable DPS."

 

If a given group/content dynamic is such that the content is difficult and prone to killing squishies, then having some armored classes in the party gives mitigators an easier job -- they can focus on the squishies.

 

If a given group/content dynamic is such that everyone is prone to dying, then "relatively survivable DPS" is DPS that gives the tank a little bit of a chance to be imperfect.

 

If a given group/content dynamic is such that everyone's steamrolling and nobody is worried about dying, then the group can subdivide and conquer fairly safely.

 

The issue that Sents have is that their inherent is overly fiddly and their damage is tuned low.

[biostem]

IMO, the Sentinel is meant to provide an avenue for people who like to blast, but don't want to live on that knife's edge of survivability.  You sacrifice some damage output for that, but it also means you can be a little more reckless.  I think you have to look at how a typical/non-min-maxed Sentinel would perform.  That being said, I would like to see their inherent adjusted to be more generally useful - perhaps changed to a separate click power that is divorced from your 1st power pick, and which can be used as desired...

[Nerva]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

Honestly, the group role that a Sentinel should probably have is "relatively survivable DPS."  It's kinda boring, but it's a fine role.  We can talk until we're blue in the face about what the role of Scrappers, stalkers, and at least some Brutes should be, and yes, they potentially can do some sophisticated group role, but my experience is that most of those ATs fil the role of "relatively survivable DPS."

....

The issue that Sents have is that their inherent is overly fiddly and their damage is tuned low.

Snip mine.

 

Honestly, I can see your point here.  My biggest issue, I guess, is that the primary set, Blast, has not a terrible lot of synergy in typical play with the secondary set, and doesn't play well with the Inherent at all.

 

Since you brought up Brutes and Scrappers, let me point out what I mean using them as an example.

 

The Brute inherent Fury allows their Melee powerset to inflict more damage.  Their secondary set, Defense, allows them to survive long enough to bring their primary set to bear and endure hits that generate Fury.  Further, their secondary set typically has a taunt aura that also provides buffs to its user or debuffs to surrounding enemies, becoming more potent as more enemies stack up around them.

 

The Scrapper inherent Critical Strike allows their Melee powerset to inflict more damage.  Their secondary set, Defense, allows them to survive incoming ranged attacks long enough to bring their primary set to bear, and last long enough for Critical Strike to proc.  Scrapper can taunt single targets out of a group if need be, and Defense allows them to survive doing so.

 

There's a synergy there.  It's weaker in scrappers, admittedly, than it is in brutes, but both of them have tools that require their Defense set to use properly.

 

This isn't the case with Sentinels.  Sentinels, despite being shorter ranged than most ranged ATs, aren't so terribly disadvantaged at range that they're going to be shot before they can close the distance.  Lacking any kind of taunt or aggro bonus (both of which are possessed by Brutes and Scrappers), there's no chance of them catching aggro over any other AT with a Defense set.  This means that in any group with an AT with a defense set, Sentinels are just a short-ranged, weaker Blaster without Manipulation and a fiddlier inherent.

 

I want to see the Defense sets of Sentinels matter more in team play, and synergize better with their inherent and primary set.  Having their secondary set provide buffs to their primary set when operating close to the fray and at risk of taking hits, or debuffing crowds of enemies without necessarily being in the thick of those crowds (if you're in the thick of them, your blast set may as well be a downtuned Melee) seems like a logical way to do this.

[aethereal]

@Nerva I don't think you're wrong -- everything you're saying is true and makes sense -- I just think that this matters relatively little.  Yes, sents' armor sets don't get much of a workout in typical team play (that is: relatively easy content) as they do in solo.  But neither do scrappers' or stalkers'.  And Brutes that aren't primary-tanking for the group.  Sents can absorb alpha for a team if necessary.

 

Yes, if a sent plays in the melee, they aren't getting much out of their range.  But they do get something, they can blast without repositioning, etc.

 

The real issue with sentinels isn't their lack of team role, it's their low damage for a primary damage class.  If they did 10% less damage than scrappers, then they'd be perfectly fine as a scrapper replacement.  Scrappers aren't the most valuable teammembers of all time, but they're FINE.

 

The issue with sents is that they don't do 10% less damage than scrappers, they do about 35% less damage than scrappers.

[Nerva]

48 minutes ago, aethereal said:

The real issue with sentinels isn't their lack of team role, it's their low damage for a primary damage class.  If they did 10% less damage than scrappers, then they'd be perfectly fine as a scrapper replacement.  Scrappers aren't the most valuable teammembers of all time, but they're FINE.

 

The issue with sents is that they don't do 10% less damage than scrappers, they do about 35% less damage than scrappers.

 

Fair enough.  But consider this: my idea can go a ways fix that as well.  Boosting damage per enemy in range (as opposed to survivability with most 'stack per enemy in range' auras) will do a lot to fix Sentinel's flagging damage output.

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

Fair enough.  But consider this: my idea can go a ways fix that as well.  Boosting damage per enemy in range (as opposed to survivability with most 'stack per enemy in range' auras) will do a lot to fix Sentinel's flagging damage output.

Sure!  I personally always tend to like to be able to perform well against single large targets, but being best against a large group is a valid role.

[Nerva]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

 I ... like to be able to perform well against single large targets, but being best against a large group is a valid role.

 

Y'know, por que no los dos?  Why not both?

 

Have the first target in range provide the biggest boost, with diminishing returns for each additional mook?  I think several powers already do this.  That way, you're strongest against a large group, but you still get the bulk of your damage even against a single foe.  And if you happen to be fighting a large single target that happens to be surrounded by a lot of easily-thrashed chaff (like the average mook-maker AV, or when your Tanker jumps into a mob with a Boss/EB in it), even better!

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Nerva
Translation

[macskull]

57 minutes ago, aethereal said:

The issue with sents is that they don't do 10% less damage than scrappers, they do about 35% less damage than scrappers.

So the game basically has four melee DPS ATs right now. Sure, you could make the argument that Tankers aren't melee DPS but the Tanker damage scale and target cap/radius buffs suggest otherwise and prior to those buffs Tankers struggled to find a clear role in the context of the game. At least in the case of the melee ATs the similarities can be excused because there are clear and obvious playstyle differences due to AT inherent powers. Sentinels unfortunately get stuck with a downright awful inherent power and give up too much for what they gain. It's like the developers set out to make a new ranged damage AT and then kneecapped their ability to deal damage at every possible opportunity (haha pun!).

[TheZag]

I posted this in another thread recently but it makes sense here too so i'll throw my idea out.

 

First is to give sentinels access to assault (dominator secondary) for its mix of melee and ranged attacks.  They already have blast so its too late to take that away.  Sentinels could choose either blast or assault for their primary.

 

Second is to add to their inherent that you do additional damage to enemies that are closer then 20 feet away.  This would give the armor secondary more purpose while rewarding the extra risk of going into melee range.  This bonus damage might need to be low at all times and boosted during opportunity or only during opportunity with a larger buff or longer duration.

 

 

[MHertz]

The proposed idea isn’t bad. It answers the question of how to play a Sentinel. What it doesn’t do, at least for me, is answer the question of why I should take one over any other AT. What does a Sentinel do better at? If I wanted someone to be a meatshield I would take a Tanker or a Mastermind first; a Brute second; or a Scrapper last. If I wanted someone to defend the team, a Defender, Controller or Corruptor. When would I want a Sentinel?

 

I feel the best way to leverage the damage and personal defenses of the Sentinel is to make them a team bodyguard. Their attacks do not have an all-purpose Taunt, but they should redirect aggro from a single target:

 

if someone is beating up on that Blaster, the Sentinel should target one of those guys and zap him. It would produce an AOE Taunt for all targets aggro’d to that Blaster. Peel away those attackers and redirect them onto the Sentinel. It’s the “why don’t you pick on someone else?” effect. You could even give the Sentinel a damage bonus on every target not already aggro’d on the Sentinel.

 

This would give a Sentinel a clear team role (and benefit) without making them a ranged Tanker or a boss-killer or a bargain-basement Defender. It would truly be a hybrid role: protect your teammates through blasting. It’d also give them preference for delivering alpha strikes, while not changing their gameplay solo.

[Nerva]

55 minutes ago, MHertz said:

The proposed idea isn’t bad. It answers the question of how to play a Sentinel. What it doesn’t do, at least for me, is answer the question of why I should take one over any other AT. What does a Sentinel do better at? If I wanted someone to be a meatshield I would take a Tanker or a Mastermind first; a Brute second; or a Scrapper last. If I wanted someone to defend the team, a Defender, Controller or Corruptor. When would I want a Sentinel?

You kinda answered your own question there.

 

Notice how, for every situation you pointed out, you named multiple ATs that could fill the role?  That's typical of CoH AT design.  The idea that "the Trinity means bupkiss" is still alive and well in CoH, and the evidence is right here.  Just because a Sentinel does something that another AT does doesn't make it bad; it just offers another option and playstyle that can fill the needed role on a team.

With my idea, the Sentinel is a sturdy ranged damage dealer that can survive getting in close enough to to hit any given target, and gets stronger (or weakens enemies, or both) the more foes are available as targets.  When AVs break out the BS, or raids/Monsters get splash-heavy and there's risk of Blasters and Corruptors and Doms going squish if a defense buff or resistance buff fails at the wrong time, a Sentinel will stay standing, and fuel not only their own DPS but the rest of the team's as well.

Now, with that said though, I'm not going to call your idea without merit, because honestly, it's pretty neat.  It's just that if we're completely honest with ourselves, none of us really know what the devs intended a Sentinel to do.  I limited my idea to what it is because it roughly fits what a Sentinel would be doing now in a team - hovering closer to a fight than a blaster or defender might, and focusing down the biggest, most dangerous enemy out of a mob, unafraid to catch a bit of splash due to the defense set.

 

So let's discuss yours.

 

55 minutes ago, MHertz said:

I feel the best way to leverage the damage and personal defenses of the Sentinel is to make them a team bodyguard. Their attacks do not have an all-purpose Taunt, but they should redirect aggro from a single target:

 

if someone is beating up on that Blaster, the Sentinel should target one of those guys and zap him. It would produce an AOE Taunt for all targets aggro’d to that Blaster. Peel away those attackers and redirect them onto the Sentinel. It’s the “why don’t you pick on someone else?” effect. You could even give the Sentinel a damage bonus on every target not already aggro’d on the Sentinel.

 

This would give a Sentinel a clear team role (and benefit) without making them a ranged Tanker or a boss-killer or a bargain-basement Defender. It would truly be a hybrid role: protect your teammates through blasting. It’d also give them preference for delivering alpha strikes, while not changing their gameplay solo.

If I'm totally frank, I'm of two minds on this this.  On one hand, I don't think every class with a defense set needs a taunt of some kind.  And let's be real here this would just be a fancy, highly-controllable taunt.

 

On the other hand, it's a fancy, highly-controllable taunt.  One that would be unique in CoH.  Heck, you could make it ally-targetable or enemy targetable - target an enemy, grab that enemy.  Target an ally, grab all enemies that are targeting that ally.  Blaster gets in over his head, calls out "I've got aggro!" in chat?  Click their name in your team list, pop your taunt on him, and suddenly all the things on him come barreling towards you.  Then the Tanker or Brute can grab them off you with their AoE taunt, and the situation is back under control.

So long as you don't target the main tank (and you're disincentivized from doing so, as your taunt is literally the only thing at this point that's able to be used on other players), you're golden.  And hey, if the main tank gets in over their head and needs a second or two to breathe, you can target them, steal their entire mob (or at least enough to leave the tank in a much better position), and offtank for a few seconds while they get their wind back.  Then they just taunt off you before you get creamed.

 

I like this idea.  If I'm totally honest, I wish Scrappers' Confront worked like this.  I'm just worried it's veering too far away from what the devs intended for Sentinel to do, because to my knowledge they've never had access to a taunt and everything that could taunt in both of their powersets has been stripped out.  Only the devs can answer that for sure.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Nerva
Fixed some typos, redundancy and stylistic issues

[A Cat]

Total hot take riffing off the bodyguard idea. How about Sents get stacks like a Blaster has with defiance via attacking, but it results in a +def +res and/or +absorb or whatever aura in a pbaoe around them? You can ride back and protect Squishies while blasting away with your ranged blasts. Or shore up a tank's protections. It is a way to be a guardian without being an aggro manager. 

[aethereal]

Stalkers are contributory as an armored class with no taunt (and inherently low threat!).  It's just that they do more damage than sentinels.

 

I think it's instructive to look at how much more.

 

Stalkers have a 1.0 damage scalar.  On an 8 person team, they have a base 31% chance to critically hit, so that's essentially 1.31 scalar (but also you have your ATO and Assassin's focus, so let's say it's a total of 40% chance to crit).  They have build-up, which is recharged by their ATO: it has a 5% chance to recharge for every attack (I think that's how it works).  With the Gaussian's proc, each build-up does +160% damage for 5 seconds, +80% damage for another 5 seconds.  Build up's natural recharge is around 30 seconds (90 seconds base, 200% recharge through some combo of local + global): using it 3 times per minute is not unreasonable, that means that in any given minute we have about 5 seconds used casting build up, about 15 seconds of +160% damage, about 15 seconds of +80% damage, and about 25 seconds of +0% damage.  If you have about +100% damage enhancement normally, then that all comes out to about 3.4 scalar.

 

Sents have a .95 damage scalar.  They get 5% damage resistance debuff.  They get Aim, which let's say they get it every 30 seconds, and have the Gaussian's proc in it, so using it twice per minute means they get 10 seconds of +100% damage and 10 seconds of +20% damage.  And they get opportunity, which gives a large damage resist debuff, but only against one target, plus a damage proc (if offensive) for the Sent.  The resist debuffs scale poorly against higher-level opponents, let's say that you get an effective 4% debuff.  They get about 50% uptime on opportunity.  If you discount the 20% opportunity resist debuff, then you have the whole thing comes out to about 2.15 scalar personally.

 

Now, sents magnify the rest of the team, too -- but if it's only 4%, and it's not on alpha, and the rest of the team isn't necessarily high-end damage performers, that doesn't come out to that much.  If the rest of the team averages 2.5 scalar (ie, the average for the rest of the team is above the sent's personal contribution), then even if they get the entire debuff all the time, that's only another 0.7 scalar for the sent.

 

Those are rough numbers, they don't capture the full complexity of the situation, but honestly I think it's more generous for the sent than it should be.  All the stalker really needs to do is hit build-up when it becomes available.  Sentinels have to try to keep their damage debuff on enemies, be on high-damage teams, use offensive opportunity when it becomes available, etc.  This is also not counting the fact that Stalkers get simply higher-damage basic attacks.

 

It's easy to look at the sent .95 scalar and the stalker 1.0 scalar and the scrapper/blaster 1.125 scalar and be like, "Oh, okay, the sent does like 10% less damage than those classes."  But opportunity is WAY less good than crits.  Blasters getting aim + build up, and the stalkers getting build up plus free recharges of it, and scrappers getting build up are all significantly better than sentinels getting just aim -- uptime for these powers is large!  Getting high base damage attacks like snipes, blaster nukes, assassin's strike, etc is a big deal.  These magnify the difference and leave sentinels a major step down in damage compared to the other DPS classes.

 

And that, not team role, is why sents aren't that good.  Fix their damage to be comparable to Scrappers/Stalkers/Blasters (doesn't need to be quite AS good as theirs, but close), and you'll generally see the concerns about what are they doing on teams melt away.  The answer to "what are they doing on teams" will become "they're doing damage."  They no more need a protective role than stalkers do.

 

Like, the idea of having a single-target taunt function that lets them bodyguard certain other players is fun and all, but most people aren't going to actually understand that and use it.  Giving some kind of auto self + damage or enemy debuff thing is, like...  a fine answer to the damage deficit, I guess, but you could also just give sents more damage.

[MHertz]

50 minutes ago, Nerva said:

With my idea, the Sentinel is a sturdy ranged damage dealer that can survive getting in close enough to to hit any given target…

Now, with that said though, I'm not going to call your idea without merit, because honestly, it's pretty neat.  It's just that if we're completely honest with ourselves, none of us really know what the devs intended a Sentinel to do.

 

 

And that’s why it’s hard to know why one should take a Sentinel; nobody knows what they’re for. They’re not especially good at anything. Heck, with their weaker damage they couldn’t pull aggro off a Blaster if they wanted to. A Sentinel is basically a guy with tons of protection he’ll never need because his attacks are too weak to get much notice. Even with extra debuffs, that’s not much of a role.

 

i play a Pistols/Dark Sentinel whose RP shtick is that it’s a pair of cursed magic pistols. Every time the wearer dies, I change costumes as if somebody new picked up the guns. I only do this on teams, lest I burn through a ton of pre-made costumes. But it’s hard to die on teams. He doesn’t do enough damage to peel away any aggro from a Brute or a Blaster. The armor … isn’t much use, most of the time. And I play him with reckless disregard for danger.

 

50 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

If I'm totally frank, I'm of two minds on this this.  On one hand, I don't think every class with a defense set needs a taunt of some kind.  And let's be real here this would just be a fancy, highly-controllable taunt.

 

On the other hand, it's a fancy, highly-controllable taunt.  One that would be unique in CoH.
 

 

I agree with you on the Taunt thing, but it is the chosen mechanism to attract aggro when granting yuuuge damage numbers would upset the balance of things. Also, calling it a Taunt makes use of existing IO sets. Making it unique would give Sentinels a purpose to their being on a team and incentivize the kind of play they would be designed for (more orangey numbers if you help your teammates!). It would make use of their armor set by actually drawing aggro instead of being used “maybe in case there’s splash damage.”

 

Again, I’m not saying your idea is bad or wrong. It would certainly help. I’m just not sure it redefines the role.

50 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

Heck, you could make it ally-targetable or enemy targetable - target an enemy, grab that enemy.  Target an ally, grab all enemies that are targeting that ally.

 

I agree that ally-targeted Aggro Redirect would be easiest to play, versus finding the specific guy wailing on that poor Dominator in the heat of battle.

50 minutes ago, Nerva said:

 

I like this idea.  If I'm totally honest, I wish Scrappers' Confront worked like this.  I'm just worried it's veering too far away from what the devs intended for Sentinel to do, because to my knowledge they've never had access to a taunt and everything that could taunt in both of their powersets has been stripped out.  Only the devs can answer that for sure.

 

I don’t think the original devs knew when they made it. They knew what it wouldn’t do — it wouldn’t overshadow anything that existed. They did less well at deciding what it would do.

 

I think what this idea does best is define why I would take a Sentinel. I have a lot of squishies on my team and no Defender, and the Mastermind is too busy managing pets to protect the team — but this Sentinel can tear some part of that aggro away and give my team some breathing space.

[TheZag]

Now i gotta go and try to make a tankinel to see if its possible.

[MHertz]

21 minutes ago, aethereal said:

And that, not team role, is why sents aren't that good.  Fix their damage to be comparable to Scrappers/Stalkers/Blasters (doesn't need to be quite AS good as theirs, but close), and you'll generally see the concerns about what are they doing on teams melt away. 

Sentinels are banana hats. It’s a bad and confusing design with no purpose. Giving them more damage is just giving the banana a bigger hat. It might look better but it doesn’t fix anything.

 

My intuition says the problem is the armor set. It’s useless except while solo.

 

If the Sentinel’s damage (a principal factor in aggro generation) doesn’t compete with that of teammates, he doesn’t need armor at all because he’ll rarely get any meaningful aggro. If his damage is on par with a Blaster or Scrapper, such that the armor set becomes meaningful, then you don’t need those guys.

 

The solution to Sentinels, I feel, is to give them a reason to have that armor without just making them a bigger banana hat.

 

I propose we gather some data on team dynamics: how much damage is directed at a sentinel on a team with other archetypes. Probably at around level 20-25, before teams are running +4/x8 with impunity. This might shed light on what’s going wrong.

[aethereal]

10 minutes ago, MHertz said:

Sentinels are banana hats. It’s a bad and confusing design with no purpose. Giving them more damage is just giving the banana a bigger hat. It might look better but it doesn’t fix anything.

 

My intuition says the problem is the armor set. It’s useless except while solo.

Do you feel the same about Stalkers?  Scrappers?

[Dona Eis Requiem]

If I look at things like a battlefield, Sentinels make sense.

Melee = Infantry, up close and in-your-face.

Blasters= ranged, light artillery

Control= sort of like air support. Into the fray for short bursts to drop their payload and high tail it out to strike again.

Support= Logistics and Medical Corp

But where's our Armored Artillery unit? Oh.

Remember, they were released before the Incarnate system and strategy was still a thing. (Don't get butthurt. You know this is true or you wouldn't see complaints about how easy things are now) Teams play differently now so the need for that spot in group play isn't as clear.

They were kinda like the break point between the (then truly) squishies  and the angry hordes in the event your front line failed for whatever reason.

I honestly don't know what the answer is for improving them to fit in line with the new meta. I would agree that their Inherent is lackluster and I wouldn't say no to a damage increase.

[MHertz]

29 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Do you feel the same about Stalkers?  Scrappers?

Given how often Scrappers and Stalkers die on teams compared to Sentinels, no. (At least in my experience.) Scrappers and Stalkers have armor and they need it to withstand the aggro they generate.

 

When I play an Empath, I throw Clear Mind on the squishies, Fortitude on the melee artists, and leave the Sentinels alone — they’re rarely in serious danger. I almost never have to run over and heal a Sentinel. Tanks, Brutes, Stalkers, Scrappers? Heals. Blasters, Dominators, Controllers? Big time heals. Masterminds, Defenders? Sure, sometimes. Sentinels? Meh, they’re okay most of the time.

 

To me, this is an indicator of bad design, not of an AT that is clearly contributing and working as intended.

[aethereal]

3 minutes ago, MHertz said:

Given how often Scrappers and Stalkers die on teams compared to Sentinels, no. (At least in my experience.) Scrappers and Stalkers have armor and they need it to withstand the aggro they generate.

Stalkers generate very little aggro.  See here:  https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Threat

 

They get about 2/3rds as much per constant damage that scrappers do (while typically doing around the same amount of damage that scrappers do), and my experience playing various Stalkers is that on a well-functioning team, their armor is indeed serious overkill.  Honestly, same with scrappers unless you're playing one of the sets with a taunt aura and there is no brute or tanker on the team.  But that's not a big deal, because, as it turns out, as long as you're doing your primary job (doing damage) well, having more survivability than you need isn't a problem.  Maybe it's not perfectly ideal, but this isn't a game where people generally embrace highly deterministic team role and tip-top performance.

[MHertz]

11 minutes ago, Dona Eis Requiem said:

They were kinda like the break point between the (then truly) squishies  and the angry hordes in the event your front line failed for whatever reason.

But are they? Sentinels don’t have any way to hold aggro if the Tanker or Brute or Mastermind pets go down.

 

I’m serious. We should gather up some groups and run an AE mission a few times over with different configurations, and calculate what % of team aggro the Sentinels get.

 

I’d go with 8-person team, level 20-25 or so:

• 2 Sent, 1 Tanker, 1 Scrapper, 1 Defender, 1 Controller, 2 Blasters
• 2 Sent, 1 Brute, 1 Stalker, 1 MM, 1 Dominator, 2 Corruptors
• 2 Sent, 6 Cont/Dom/Def
• 2 Sent (armor turned off), 6 Tanker/Brute/Scrapper/Stalker
• 8 Sentinels (control group)

Should be interesting to see how much damage is directed their way.

[MHertz]

14 minutes ago, aethereal said:

But that's not a big deal, because, as it turns out, as long as you're doing your primary job (doing damage) well, having more survivability than you need isn't a problem. 

Making the Sentinel’s armor even more overkill is not a good design direction. If you have to tune up Sentinel damage (with a single damage primary) to compete with a Blaster (who has damage primary and secondary), you’re not really fixing the design flaw. You’re just turning up the radio real loud so you can’t hear the rattle in the engine. Sentinel armor will be redundant unless they can generate aggro sufficient to draw some fire. And you can’t go so far with damage buffs as to eliminate the utility of Blasters, so more direct damage is not the solution.

Edited December 14, 2021 by MHertz