The Lost and the homeless

[ChaoticSalad]

So, I’ve thought of writing some AE content that was related to the lore of CoX rather than making purely original content, and for whatever reason The Lost came up in my mind.

 

And, well, I guess some backstory about myself is needed to build the foundation of this discussion.

 

For half a year I was homeless, although I was lucky that I had a decent car to live in and a family that wanted me back, keeping my credit card active despite running away. Yet, I still saw and experienced some of what the homeless deal with; gangs, cops and pedestrians that wanted them gone, using force to do so. 

 

The homeless are powerless. Some are mentally ill. Others that aren’t ill seem ‘unstable’ and ‘violent’ due to groups above trying to destroy their existence, so the first thing they do is to defend themselves, whatever they need to or not. 

 

With all those factors, I decided to look into the Lost faction, seeing if they were more than ‘Pre-Rikti’. https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Theoden and https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Timothy_Raymond don’t seem to be under some psychic control, but are rather sentient, or become sentient

. So far so good.

 

The Lost Cure, which was introduced by Timothy Raymond, is mass produced and used by the Vanguard to revert Lost back into humans. Namely the homeless. Yet, I ask myself this; where do the homeless go?

 

Homeless shelters seem like a pretty obvious answer to this question, but have you worked at an American homeless shelter? Most are crowded, understaffed, underfunded and potentially dangerous for those staying there and working there. Most leave, going back to the streets.

 

And this is Paragon City. Where the homeless are targets and recruits for the Lost. Makes me wonder how many of the Lost we fight are just the same person being turned over and over again.

 

So what if a group of Lost don’t want the cure, not to cause trouble but to create their own community? That staying the way they are is preferable due to the fact that they can fight back, that they can find somewhere to call home, at least amongst themselves?

 

Would Vanguard find this intolerable? Or the other major ‘blue side’ factions?

 

I haven’t written my complete thoughts on the matter, but I thought I would start a discussion about it, hearing some thoughts.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ChaoticSalad

[Lazarillo]

It's an intriguing story hook, IMO.  There are at least a couple late-game Rikti-affiliated villains that saw the process as a general step up in their lives, and while the cult-like tactics and drugs that are used to transform and manipulate the members definitely put the group as "villainous" over all, it's not hard to see where people down on their luck would still prefer it. That said, the Lost are, ultimately, still pretty villainous.  You could apply similar "what if"-type situations to members of other groups.  Like, if you took away all of Vandal's robot parts, it'd probably still be clearly wrong for him to want to go running back to the 5th Column and getting up to all his nazi antics because he preferred his life as a cyborg, no?  (And heck, one of the aforementioned Lost->Rikti mutated characters who found satisfaction in that life was already a super-villain, too.)

 

That's not to say there isn't still potential for a story in all this, regarding how average citizens, as it were, have to deal with life in Paragon.  But it's also something to consider.

[Thrones]

1 hour ago, ChaoticSalad said:

That staying the way they are is preferable due to the fact that they can fight back, that they can find somewhere to call home, at least amongst themselves?

 

I've always felt bad "curing" the lost. 

[biostem]

I hope that you wouldn't have these homeless as the enemies you fight.  As @Thrones intimated, it's unfortunate that you basically strip The Lost of their power in the name of "saving" them.  It would be cool if you wrote an arc centered around a group that was trying to rehabilitate some member of The Lost, and finding a way to reverse the physical changes while retaining the power-granting ones, perhaps with an eye toward community outreach and possible hero work.  It'd also be interesting if the usual actors, (Crey, perhaps Arachnos, and maybe even some corrupt PPD or Freedom Corps members), were trying to weasel their way into this program and hog the results to themselves...

[El D]

I can't imagine that Vanguard would allow a community of peaceful Lost - not because peaceful Lost can't happen, but more because the Lost by their nature isn't so much a community as a movement (Become Rikti) that is taking advantage of a community (Paragon's homeless population). Vanguard's entire purpose of 'stop the Rikti by any means necessary' runs pretty directly counter to that.

 

Also, for a 'Lost Community' to exist there'd need to be a method of consistently producing the mutagenic drugs that create them. After all they aren't born, so they'd have to replenish their numbers via continued transformations of new members. If it was just a special, insular group of Lost who refused to change, didn't recruit more, and wanted to use their powers for good/against the Rikti? That I could see Vanguard taking advantage of, given their previously established recruitment policies of 'we'll take anyone who will fight the Rikti and do what we tell them.'

 

That said, Vanguard does have the Herald as a public relations branch run by Incandescent. I could easily see them operating shelters or programs for the Lost or former-Lost - perhaps partnered with the Midnight Club, given their involvement in crafting the Lost Cure in the first place. It could definitely make for an interesting arc!

Edited May 25, 2022 by El D

[Waljoricar]

6 hours ago, ChaoticSalad said:

So, I’ve thought of writing some AE content that was related to the lore of CoX rather than making purely original content, and for whatever reason The Lost came up in my mind.

 

And, well, I guess some backstory about myself is needed to build the foundation of this discussion.

 

For half a year I was homeless, although I was lucky that I had a decent car to live in and a family that wanted me back, keeping my credit card active despite running away. Yet, I still saw and experienced some of what the homeless deal with; gangs, cops and pedestrians that wanted them gone, using force to do so. 

 

The homeless are powerless. Some are mentally ill. Others that aren’t ill seem ‘unstable’ and ‘violent’ due to groups above trying to destroy their existence, so the first thing they do is to defend themselves, whatever they need to or not. 

 

With all those factors, I decided to look into the Lost faction, seeing if they were more than ‘Pre-Rikti’. https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Theoden and https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Timothy_Raymond don’t seem to be under some psychic control, but are rather sentient, or become sentient

. So far so good.

 

The Lost Cure, which was introduced by Timothy Raymond, is mass produced and used by the Vanguard to revert Lost back into humans. Namely the homeless. Yet, I ask myself this; where do the homeless go?

 

Homeless shelters seem like a pretty obvious answer to this question, but have you worked at an American homeless shelter? Most are crowded, understaffed, underfunded and potentially dangerous for those staying there and working there. Most leave, going back to the streets.

 

And this is Paragon City. Where the homeless are targets and recruits for the Lost. Makes me wonder how many of the Lost we fight are just the same person being turned over and over again.

I'm very sorry to read about your experience of having been homeless. I too have experienced periods of homelessness in my life and it completely reframed my understanding of the challenges/pitfalls transient people face when just trying to live their lives - regardless of the circumstances that led us to being of no fixed abode - whilst navigating a society that victimises those already most vulnerable to the outcomes of structural inequality.

I love that you're engaging your sociological imagination when thinking about The Lost too. Perspectives like yours are what can elevate fictional representations of marginalised groups. Too often "the homeless" are depicted as monolithic in fiction and/or as a plot device to push an overarching narrative/message. That seems to be case with The Lost to some degree, at least, from my perspective.

In regards to your question, about how many of The Lost are trapped in an endless cycle of being "cured" by Vanguard and presumably churned through a turnstile of well-meaning but ineffectual bureaucracy (only to find themselves recruited back into The Lost)? This immediately brings to my mind other villain groups that also find initiates in the disenfranchised of Paragon City.

 

Following Galaxy City's decimation, The Skulls actively sought to recruit from the transient, refugee community fleeing the devastation of their home. The Hellions, The Council, The Outcasts and The Trolls are all heavily implied to offer a a similar form of sanctuary/camaraderie. Many of the "low level" villain group have some basis in recruiting vulnerable, everyday people who have fallen on hard times.

So, if we're flexing our sociological imagination and thinking about what is possible from a RP standpoint - I wonder how many "cured" Lost actually end up as members of other villain groups. It's not uncommon, in real life, for vulnerable people to be exploited again after escaping the influence of a malignant person or group. What if the "cured" Lost aren't welcome in their former community anymore and are drawn to another group that offers community/sanctuary/solidarity like The Hellions/The Lost/The Council? My brain is already imagining a backstory for character unfortunate enough to fall prey to such a scenario.
 

6 hours ago, ChaoticSalad said:

So what if a group of Lost don’t want the cure, not to cause trouble but to create their own community? That staying the way they are is preferable due to the fact that they can fight back, that they can find somewhere to call home, at least amongst themselves?

 

Would Vanguard find this intolerable? Or the other major ‘blue side’ factions?

 

I haven’t written my complete thoughts on the matter, but I thought I would start a discussion about it, hearing some thoughts.

The original developers of CoX were able to, to some degree, approach the grey area of vigilantism from a player perspective. I would love to see similar themes explored in regards to the hostile groups we encounter in Paragon City/the Rogue Isles.

A story-arc that deals with themes like restorative justice, structural inequality, a person's right to bodily autonomy (rejecting the Lost Cure) and a community's right to take ownership of their shared identity is a story I want to read about, take part in and play. There's so much potential there. Whether you want to portray Vanguard/Arachnos/whomever as well intentioned or covert eugenicists.

 Mixing the fantastic with the mundane is where the superhero genre shines its brightest. I really think you're onto something here!

Oh, and, yes, Vanguard would find it intolerable in my opinion. Unless they're given some incentive to decide otherwise.

Edited May 25, 2022 by hurtlesnaps

[ChaoticSalad]

While I’m going to counter argue some of these points, I’m still glad to hear them. Some of this is clarifications as well, because I’m doing some work and process of moving, so the post is a little muddled.

 

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

There are at least a couple late-game Rikti-affiliated villains that saw the process as a general step up in their lives, and while the cult-like tactics and drugs that are used to transform and manipulate the members definitely put the group as "villainous" over all, it's not hard to see where people down on their luck would still prefer it. That said, the Lost are, ultimately, still pretty villainous. 

 

To me, these Rikti-affiliated villains are individuals that view their transformation as a step up but use this new position in their life to become oppressors. Yet, someone else might use this ‘step up’ for good.

 

Perhaps this group would have a different name to label themselves, rather than Lost? ‘Found’ sounds corny but I like corny, personally.

 

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Like, if you took away all of Vandal's robot parts, it'd probably still be clearly wrong for him to want to go running back to the 5th Column and getting up to all his nazi antics because he preferred his life as a cyborg, no? 

 

Vandal chose to become a cyborg. The victims of the Lost didn’t. What I’m proposing is that this group of Lost wish to retain their gained power for self-protection and a better life.

 

2 hours ago, biostem said:

I hope that you wouldn't have these homeless as the enemies you fight. 

 

The idea behind the AE storyline would basically be a ‘Choose your own adventure’, where you interact with a blinky that tells you to find a certain mission on AE.

 

Basically it would be this:

> You agree with the Lost and help them fight against their foes.

> You agree with the group that wish for a non-lethal, contained fight against the Lost

> You agree with a group that wish to use violence against the Lost

 

Other groups will present their arguments against this community of Lost, and you can agree with them or not to make one of these choices.

 

2 hours ago, El D said:

I can't imagine that Vanguard would allow a community of peaceful Lost - not because peaceful Lost can't happen, but more because the Lost by their nature isn't so much a community as a movement (Become Rikti) that is taking advantage of a community (Paragon's homeless population). Vanguard's entire purpose of 'stop the Rikti by any means necessary' runs pretty directly counter to that.

 

...

 

Also, for a 'Lost Community' to exist there'd need to be a method of consistently producing the mutagenic drugs that create them. After all they aren't born, so they'd have to replenish their numbers via continued transformations of new members

 

What I mean by community isn’t so much producing new members via drugs, but rather through finding current Lost that are united in this mindset.

 

Perhaps Vanguard might assume that this is just another Lost cult performing the same modus operandi to grow their numbers in the story arc, which would be an interesting angle.

 

With all this said, I think this group of Lost wouldn’t stop someone from getting The Cure from Vanguard if they want it; after all, if they want to return to their normal lives, whatever that may be, who are they to stop them? 

 

-

 

Might ramble on later on what else is on my mind about this, like it's some sort of dumb vlog, but keep it going.

[Waljoricar]

@ChaoticSalad - Some of the concepts you're bringing to the fore immediately make me think of The Morlocks from the X-Men. I don't want to presume to know your interest in or knowledge of the superhero genre, so I've provided a link - there's a few decades worth of great stories that cover topics like factionalism, fundamentalism and transient sovereignty within a community of indigent, sewer-dwelling mutants.

Edited May 25, 2022 by hurtlesnaps

[ChaoticSalad]

4 minutes ago, hurtlesnaps said:

Some of the concepts you're bringing to the fore immediately make me think of The Morlocks from the X-Men. I don't want to presume to know your interest in or knowledge of the superhero genre, so I've provided a link - there's a few decades worth of great stories that cover topics like factionalism, fundamentalism and indigent sovereignty within a community of transient, sewer-dwelling mutants.

 

I'm not familiar with X-Men comics/lore ( I was more of a Darkhorse, Spawn or Moonknight sort of kid ), but from what I read from the article they do have some similarities to what I'm thinking about. However, I do find the idea that the 'Hideous and Deformed' sewer dwelling mutants to use violence to settle differences to be problematic, but I understand that the creators didn't think of that at the time.

 

Yet, I'll look more into this, so thank you for the suggestion.

[ChaoticSalad]

3 hours ago, El D said:

That said, Vanguard does have the Herald as a public relations branch run by Incandescent. I could easily see them operating shelters or programs for the Lost or former-Lost - perhaps partnered with the Midnight Club, given their involvement in crafting the Lost Cure in the first place.

 

Not going to lie, but reading the Paragon Times article about Incandescent scares the hell out of me.

 

“We stand watch to deter hostile alien forces who would disrupt our peace and livelihoods. We know what to look for, even if you don’t..."

 

That's almost sounds like if McCarthy was a part of Vanguard.

[Omega Force]

Something to keep in mind regarding Vanguard is they are currently teaming up with Rikti and Praetorians who oppose the invasion of Earth, so the thought of them supporting the Found makes perfect sense.  Another factor is heroes can only use the wand on hostile Lost, though if that hostility is natural or the results of mind control is debatable.

[El D]

39 minutes ago, ChaoticSalad said:

 

Not going to lie, but reading the Paragon Times article about Incandescent scares the hell out of me.

 

“We stand watch to deter hostile alien forces who would disrupt our peace and livelihoods. We know what to look for, even if you don’t..."

 

That's almost sounds like if McCarthy was a part of Vanguard.

 

Oh yeah, there's definitely some heavy 'Red Scare' theming with the Rikti. A hostile invading force, presumably once reasonable people twisted by ideology into a (literally) godless hive society that seeks to infiltrate, usurp, and/or destroy the true way of doing things? Complete with foreign weaponry, numerous internal warring factions vying for succession, and a funny accent?

 

Really, the 'Earth is for humans. Let's keep it that way.' billboards are just the icing on that cake. It's like The Manchurian Candidate crossed with Independence Day.

 

That said, I do think the comic book aspect of it being a literal, objective alien invasion against the entire planet rather than a geopolitical/cultural conflict between two nations makes the reaction more understandable in-context. It's not just a 'We think the Rikti might supplant us, so we have to have an edge' thing so much as 'The Rikti nearly did wipe out all human life on our planet' thing. Those kind of 'facing the possible end of humanity against a worldwide threat' stories always tend to go that route. >.>

 

Also, corny or not, calling the new Lost faction 'The Found' is fantastic and I am 100% here for it.

Edited May 25, 2022 by El D

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, ChaoticSalad said:

 

Not going to lie, but reading the Paragon Times article about Incandescent scares the hell out of me.

 

“We stand watch to deter hostile alien forces who would disrupt our peace and livelihoods. We know what to look for, even if you don’t..."

 

That's almost sounds like if McCarthy was a part of Vanguard.

I love your idea about "Found" and I would suggest you consider writing a short piece on the leadership, organization, and any early interior political schisms of the found.  the group in a nutshell.  from there you can build the group outwards, leadership (AV? Hero? GM???) and how the group communicates, and basically gets stuff done....

[biostem]

It would be an interesting twist if this new "Found" faction was being assisted by a Rikti, who successfully transformed back to a human form themselves - would put a spin on things, as they *were* actually being assisted by an alien...

[Glacier Peak]

Real life aside (no disrespect meant), it's just as easy to write away perceived problem itself by the writers saying that there are super heroes out there who help the 'homeless' or folks who have homes but reasons abound are not occupying them. Heck they could say a super hero has magical powers that remove all mental durress, reintegrates them in to society without any stigma, and prevents future situations from occurring that lead to these unfortunate outcomes like economic inequality, mental health awareness and rehabilitation, and the like. Or they could say an alien took advantage of the situation and the hero is saving the day by defeating the alien and call it a story. 

 

Glad to hear some solid plot development from a creator in this community and I'm excited to see what you make of the story.