Focused Feedback: Stealth Toggle Exclusivity Removal

[The Curator]

Stealth Toggle Exclusivity Removal

Player Stealth Toggles, with the exception of temporary powers, are no longer exclusive. Players can now use multiple stealth toggle powers at the same time, however the stealth radius, defense, and threat level of these powers will not stack. Instead, the strongest effect from these powers will be used (much like how travel power stacking currently works). The powers that fall within these stealth toggle rules are listed below.

List of Stealth Toggles

• Arctic Fog
• Cloak of Darkness
• Cloaking Device
• Energy Cloak
• Field Operative
• Infiltration
• Mask Presence
• Shadow Fall
• Shinobi
• Shinobi-Iri
• Stealth
• Steamy Mist
• Super Speed
• Superior Invisibility

[Jitsurei]

Every character that wants to stealth anywhere needs a stealth IO with this change. It feels worse to take a set that has a stealth power when you can no longer achieve full stealth without running even more powers than before. This is going to hurt the most on sets like Dark Armor, which already suffer for endurance and slots and now will have to run Sprint or another travel power if they want to avoid attracting additional mobs. May as well call it an endurance tax.

[Lazarillo]

3 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

Every character that wants to stealth anywhere needs a stealth IO with this change. It feels worse to take a set that has a stealth power when you can no longer achieve full stealth without running even more powers than before. This is going to hurt the most on sets like Dark Armor, which already suffer for endurance and slots and now will have to run Sprint or another travel power if they want to avoid attracting additional mobs. May as well call it an endurance tax.

Unless I'm misreading the note, or misunderstanding your claim, that shouldn't be the case.  None of the powers in question had their Stealth potency reduced, so any set that needs a Stelth IO for "full" stealth post changes (Cloak of Darkness being one of them), already needs a Stealth IO for "full" stealth pre-changes.

[Jitsurei]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

Unless I'm misreading the note, or misunderstanding your claim, that shouldn't be the case.  None of the powers in question had their Stealth potency reduced, so any set that needs a Stelth IO for "full" stealth post changes (Cloak of Darkness being one of them), already needs a Stealth IO for "full" stealth pre-changes.

The issue isn’t that they’re incompatible with each other, it’s that they’re incompatible with Super Speed. You were previously able to get a good travel power and full stealth with two powers. Not everyone uses Super Speed of course, but a lot of us do enjoy it.

[Riverdusk]

You couldn't stack these stealth powers before, so nothing should change in that regard.  It should be a QoL change only. 

 

Only potential drawback I could see is if you forget to turn off the extra stealth power now instead of it automatically toggling off when you activate a 2nd one.  If you aren't paying attention it could be an extra endurance drain you didn't have before, and that isn't actually doing anything for you.

[Astralock]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Unless I'm misreading the note, or misunderstanding your claim, that shouldn't be the case.  None of the powers in question had their Stealth potency reduced, so any set that needs a Stelth IO for "full" stealth post changes (Cloak of Darkness being one of them), already needs a Stealth IO for "full" stealth pre-changes.

A lot of people stack stealth toggles with Super Speed, especially speed runners.  Super Speed is pretty much a requirement for speed running.  This change is now adding a Sprint with a +stealth IO tax on top of that.

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, Jitsurei said:

The issue isn’t that they’re incompatible with each other, it’s that they’re incompatible with Super Speed. You were previously able to get a good travel power and full stealth with two powers. Not everyone uses Super Speed of course, but a lot of us do enjoy it.

 

Ah, that is true, have you tested it to make sure?  Maybe they could make an exception for super speed somehow.

[Jitsurei]

To clarify, if the stealth threat and defense don’t stack at all there’s no reason to use any of these at the same time- except for the travel powers. How is it a quality of life improvement to run more powers for no benefit?

[Jitsurei]

1 minute ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Ah, that is true, have you tested it to make sure?  Maybe they could make an exception for super speed somehow.

Haven’t had a chance to load the beta, but if super speed was given an exception I’d be totally on board with the additional freedom. 

[Lazarillo]

20 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

The issue isn’t that they’re incompatible with each other, it’s that they’re incompatible with Super Speed. You were previously able to get a good travel power and full stealth with two powers. Not everyone uses Super Speed of course, but a lot of us do enjoy it.

I guess that's fair, but I feel like that's still...not really as bad as you're describing? No offense, seriously, but Sprint + Stealth IO has a lower endurance cost, so less "tax" anyway, and you get the full movement benefit in combat (whereas SS, last I checked, still suppresses)?  You do have to add the IO, admittedly, so I see why there could still be some beef, but in that case, you can now run Concealment-pool Stealth alongside your other powers, which is higher than Sprint, but lower-cost than Super Speed, still, and in that case, adds Defense.

 

So you get an option that you don't have on live (assuming you have room for another travel power in your build, admittedly), in addition to one that you already have, and feels more efficient. 

[Jitsurei]

26 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I guess that's fair, but I feel like that's still...not really as bad as you're describing? No offense, seriously, but Sprint + Stealth IO has a lower endurance cost, so less "tax" anyway, and you get the full movement benefit in combat (whereas SS, last I checked, still suppresses)?  You do have to add the IO, admittedly, so I see why there could still be some beef, but in that case, you can now run Concealment-pool Stealth alongside your other powers, which is higher than Sprint, but lower-cost than Super Speed, still, and in that case, adds Defense.

 

So you get an option that you don't have on live (assuming you have room for another travel power in your build, admittedly), in addition to one that you already have, and feels more efficient. 

Movement speed is great, sure. And, for characters that never had stealth in their basic sets it’s totally fine. For characters that did, it’s an added inconvenience for no gain- those stealth powers already grant defense and they already weren’t getting benefits from these powers that were incompatible before. Adding more powers to my tray to do something I could already do before doesn’t sound like an improvement to me.
 

We always had other options. This is actually taking one away. Super Speed was always compatible with all of these powers and is having its stacking removed with the others even though it wasn’t in the incompatible category to begin with.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Jitsurei

[Dombloo]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I guess that's fair, but I feel like that's still...not really as bad as you're describing? No offense, seriously, but Sprint + Stealth IO has a lower endurance cost, so less "tax" anyway, and you get the full movement benefit in combat (whereas SS, last I checked, still suppresses)?  You do have to add the IO, admittedly, so I see why there could still be some beef, but in that case, you can now run Concealment-pool Stealth alongside your other powers, which is higher than Sprint, but lower-cost than Super Speed, still, and in that case, adds Defense.

 

So you get an option that you don't have on live (assuming you have room for another travel power in your build, admittedly), in addition to one that you already have, and feels more efficient. 

 

I'm not quite understanding: what option in this scenario am I getting that I'm not getting on live currently?

 

On my current build, I run Stealth + Super Speed + Sprint, which puts me above the perception threshold needed to be undetected and I'm still able to slot my sprint for additional in-combat movement speed/end. reduction; after this change, one of those two things cannot be true unless I respec the build. I, of course, could have always used Stealth + Sprint (with +stealth IO) to achieve that perception threshold instead, but that's not what I wanted to do in that build and its certainly not a new option this change has given me. 

[Lazarillo]

5 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

I'm not quite understanding: what option in this scenario am I getting that I'm not getting on live currently?

Running Stealth + Cloak of Darkness/Arctic Fog/etc to stack the Defense bonus, with Stealth alone giving you an effectively-max stealth radius.

 

5 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

On my current build, I run Stealth + Super Speed + Sprint, which puts me above the perception threshold needed to be undetected and I'm still able to slot my sprint for additional in-combat movement speed/end. reduction; after this change, one of those two things cannot be true unless I respec the build.

On current Live, Stealth alone already gives you effectively-max Stealth.  You could drop Super Speed from that combination of three, and have no IO in Sprint, and anything that will see you, would see you even with all three.  After this change, the same will be the case.

 

Just to be clear, folks are aware that Concealment Pool Stealth got its effectiveness buffed up a few pages back, right?

[Lazarillo]

17 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

Super Speed was always compatible with all of these powers and is having its stacking removed with the others even though it wasn’t in the incompatible category to begin with.

Again, I'm not seeing why replacing Super Speed with Stealth doesn't just mean you're using the same number of powers, though (while also adding some bonus defense).  Doubly so when Stealth has a lower Endurance cost.  And as noted in the other response, you're aware that Stealth alone is maxing you out in terms of invisibility, right?

[Jitsurei]

5 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Again, I'm not seeing why replacing Super Speed with Stealth doesn't just mean you're using the same number of powers, though (while also adding some bonus defense).  Doubly so when Stealth has a lower Endurance cost.  And as noted in the other response, you're aware that Stealth alone is maxing you out in terms of invisibility, right?

Just checked in game. 55 ft stealth radius is by no means maxed out or even enough. Most aim for 65 and hard mode mobs have even higher perception.

 

Stealth power pool is not always an option and I would hate to feel like I have to take it over an equivalent power in my primary or secondary set.

[PorkTips]

This is a horrific nerf, as far as I can tell. I use Super speed + a stealth IO in sprint to stack to ghost things or avoid mobs or all kinds of things on all my characters. And I put a knockback IO in super speed. So this is a net loss for .... every character I have, since I take Super Speed on every character.

 

This is not a quality of life change. This seems like some back-handed way to mess with something else.

 

Terrible idea.

Edited October 4, 2022 by PorkTips

[Dombloo]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Running Stealth + Cloak of Darkness/Arctic Fog/etc to stack the Defense bonus, with Stealth alone giving you an effectively-max stealth radius.

 

The defense will not stack, it will simply take the highest defense stat of the active powers in the Stealth Toggles pool.

 

But assuming that was just a wording issue and the main argument was you get to maintain the stealth radius from Stealth while getting the defense from one of the other powers (which, by the way, could have been accomplished on live by taking Super Speed and the stated higher defense power; giving you both a travel power, the higher defense stat, and the stealth radius needed to be undetected by most groups); the gripe is still that Stealth's stealth radius alone isn't enough for many enemy groups. 

[Lazarillo]

4 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

Most aim for 65 and hard mode mobs have even higher perception.

Can't speak to Hard mode mobs, but in those cases, I think the ideal should be, rather than SS, make stealth stack from different sources. You're supposed to be doing HM in teams, after all.  Critters, as far as I'm aware, cap out at with bosses having 55 perception in normal content.  Anything that sees past that (Rikti Drones, KoA, snipers, Rularuu, etc), just has automatic see-through Stealth and no amount of stacking is going to fool them.

 

5 minutes ago, Jitsurei said:

Stealth power pool is not always an option and I would hate to feel like I have to take it over an equivalent power in my primary or secondary set.

...as opposed to having to take Super Speed over an equivalent power in your primary or secondary set?

[Lazarillo]

4 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

The defense will not stack, it will simply take the highest defense stat of the active powers in the Stealth Toggles pool.

Ah, whoops, you're right.  I missed that and thought they said that it was the stealth factor that didn't stack.

 

4 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

the gripe is still that Stealth's stealth radius alone isn't enough for many enemy groups. 

Enemies that will see you through captial-S Stealth, will see you through all forms lowercase-s Stealth, regardless of how much you stack.

[Jitsurei]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

...as opposed to having to take Super Speed over an equivalent power in your primary or secondary set?

Are you… suggesting I stop taking a travel power pool and put stealth on every char instead? You can take whatever pools you want. And if super speed gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. But let’s not pretend this is a quality of life improvement. I was going to take it because I enjoy the max run speed, which is useful and enjoyable outside of stealth.

[Lazarillo]

Just now, Jitsurei said:

Are you… suggesting I stop taking a travel power pool and put stealth on every char instead? You can take whatever pools you want. And if super speed gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. But let’s not pretend this is a quality of life improvement. I was going to take it because I enjoy the max run speed, which is useful and enjoyable outside of stealth.

I'm suggesting that saying you have to take more powers to achieve the level of stealth desired, when there's a 1-to-1 change of the number of powers involved, seems rather disingenuous, is all.

[SeraphimKensai]

I'll have to check if an illusion troller gets benefit of superior invis while also running shadow fall/steamy most and the player's teammates benefit from the weaker stealth aura. If it works like that it's a QoL improvement.

 

That said I'm in the camp if someone wants to dedicate multiple power picks to stack stealth then so be it, even in PvP.

[Jitsurei]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I'm suggesting that saying you have to take more powers to achieve the level of stealth desired, when there's a 1-to-1 change of the number of powers involved, seems rather disingenuous, is all.

Stealth is not a travel power. Not a 1-to-1 change.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Jitsurei said:

Stealth is not a travel power. Not a 1-to-1 change.

Kind of a goalpost move from

 

1 hour ago, Jitsurei said:

This is going to hurt the most on sets like Dark Armor, which already suffer for endurance and slots and now will have to run Sprint or another travel power if they want to avoid attracting additional mobs. May as well call it an endurance tax.

 

[Jitsurei]

I think we can all agree Stealth is a great power and a good choice for many builds. My primary concern is that a travel power is being lumped in with a bunch of non travel powers for a change that it didn’t need to begin with because it was always compatible with everything on this list. 
*maybe not infiltration? but that was already a special case