This is only a model of: The KNIGHTS Powerset

[AspieAnarchy]

Some credit for this is due someone on the Live forums who tried to suggest ideas for Hero-suitable Summon sets; aside from the basic theme, though, the rest is entirely mine....

 

KNIGHTS (Summon)

Available to: Masterminds

Set Color: Steel Blue-on-White

 

You lead a company of old-fashioned but intrepid knights, whether as their liege, their mystical vizier, their venerable grandmaster, an errant officer, their sworn ward, or perhaps just their guide in this strange modern world. The knights may be restless revenants, time-travelers from a bygone era, the modern-born scions of an ancient order who uphold its traditions, pretentious but skilled mercenaries with an old-world sensibility, or even just a cadre of live-action roleplaying dorks turned super-hardcore. They enter battle with classical weapons, and fine stout armor and trained fortitude that protects them from Smashing, Lethal, and to a lesser extent, Fire, Cold, and Toxic damage. Their knightly valor renders them highly resistant to fear, and their heavy panoplies afford them good protection from knockback and stun.

 

1) Tilt – You strike your foe at up to a moderate distance with your personal weapon: A pennon, lance, or polearm. In addition to its advantage of range, it is a keenly accurate weapon, and the force behind it can knock your target off its feet as did the jousters of old. Damage: Moderate Lethal Recharge: Fast

 

2) Knights-Errant – You call up to 3 lower-ranking knights to your side, all armed with broadswords and shields. The first is your faithful Squire, and the other two serve as more straightforward Armigers.

 

Squire:

-Slash

-Maintain Equipment – long-lasting, long-cooldown power increases damage resistance, accuracy, attack speed, and resistance to accuracy/damage/defense/resistance debuffs for you and all your Knights

-Athletic Run

 

Armigers:

-Hack

-Phalanx Fighting

-Athletic Run

 

3) Lance – An elegant and chivalrously-straightforward attack with your weapon – quick, accurate, and strong. Damage: High Lethal Recharge: Fast

 

4) Knightly Training – You instruct your knights in the next level of chivalrous combat techniques.

 

Grants Squire:

-Hack

-Grant Cover

 

Grants Armigers:

-Slash

-Shield Bash – minor Smashing damage, chance to stun and/or knockdown

 

Grants Landsknecht:

-Gash

-Build Up

-Resist Physical Damage

-Tough Hide

 

Grants Templar:

-Clobber

-Crowd Control

-Kinetic Shield

-Energy Protection

 

Grants Paladin:

-Greater Fire Sword

-Rise to the Challenge

-Maneuvers

 

5) Smite – A mighty blow with your weapon that is likely to stun, knockdown, and/or inflict additional bleed damage on the target. Damage: High Lethal Recharge: Moderate

 

6) Cavaliers – summons up to two mighty and resplendent knights, each well-seasoned in their craft and with their own complementary styles: The fearsome, heavy weapon-loving Landsknecht, and the heavily-armored, mystically-inclined Templar.

 

Landsknecht:

-Chop

-Pendulum

-High Pain Tolerance

-Athletic Run

 

Templar:

-Bash

-Pulverize

-Temp Invulnerability

-Athletic Run

 

7) Holy Hand Grenade – Sometimes, modern (or just especially vicious) foes require modern armaments. Your order has access to these secret weapons that, when thrown, deal exceptional damage over a wide area, and even more to those who number among the undead, demonic, or unearthly. It must be timed carefully and may be interrupted; note that this counts as both a sniper and ranged AoE attack, and can accept Invention Enhancement Sets of both such varieties. Damage: Superior/Special Fire/Energy Recharge: Long

 

😎 Paladin – summons a superhuman paragon of your knightly order.

 

Paladin:

-Fire Sword

-Shining Armor – Increases resistance against ALL damage while active

-Share Pain

-Athletic Run

 

9) Grandmastery – You invest your knights with the most advanced training of your order.

 

Grants Squire:

-Against All Odds

-Beating of Coconuts – stuns/knocks down enemies in area, grants movement buff to nearby allies; slow cooldown

 

Grants Armigers:

-Shield Charge

 

-Grants Landsknecht:

-Axe Cyclone

-Cleave

 

Grants Templar:

-Tremor

-Spirit Ward

 

Grants Paladin:

-Fire Sword Circle

-Tactics

-Martyr’s Requiem – as Vengeance, but works only on other fallen Knights

-Chariot of the Sun – as Savage Leap, but Fire damage, no Blood Frenzy

 

Example Character Concept: The Gallant King's Row Guildsmen! (Heroic Knights/Trick Arrow Natural Mastermind)

Edited October 10, 2023 by AspieAnarchy
color-coded attack damage-types

[Rudra]

You lost me with sniper enhancements on a grenade. Aside from that? Looks interesting.

 

Edit: Personally though? If this power set is to use melee attacks on a MM? I would rather sword, axe, mace, flail, or hammer. (Edit again: Or pick or whip.) Not a fan of lances.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Rudra

[AspieAnarchy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You lost me with sniper enhancements on a grenade.

 

I may yet reconsider the tier-7 - but at least it's distinctive, right?

 

What, in your view, exactly is wrong with Sniper sets on a grenade?

It's a ranged attack with an interruptible period, so the shoe fits.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Personally though? If this power set is to use melee attacks on a MM? I would rather sword, axe, mace, flail, or hammer. (Edit again: Or pick or whip.) Not a fan of lances.

 

But what weapon is more knightly than a lance?? Besides, it would have other options, as mentioned; how about a halberd?

It's supposed to be like a whip; melee, but with unusually long range for melee.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, AspieAnarchy said:

What, in your view, exactly is wrong with Sniper sets on a grenade?

It's a ranged attack with an interruptible period, so the shoe fits.

Sniper attacks are long ranged, high accuracy attacks. Grenades are short range, area effect attacks. (Edit: So it's the difference of picking off targets with vital/critical shots, as opposed to taking down groups of enemies with an area attack.)

 

1 hour ago, AspieAnarchy said:

But what weapon is more knightly than a lance?? Besides, it would have other options, as mentioned; how about a halberd?

It's supposed to be like a whip; melee, but with unusually long range for melee.

Even knights only used lances during cavalry charges and jousting matches. When unhorsed, they favored sword, axe, or mace. I'd say spears could be substituted for lances and still maintain theme, but spears, halberds, and other polearms were typically the weapons of the regular infantry, not the nobles that commanded them. (Edit: Though I do acknowledge that spears predated lances for cavalry charges, they still were not knightly weapons when unhorsed. And lances weren't used for melee combat, even on horseback.) And the whip in CoX isn't a melee weapon. It's a ranged one. Even Lash, as a "Close" attack has a 20 feet range. Well beyond lance or any poleweapon.

 

Edit again: I know using wikipedia as a reference is bad, but here anyways:

A lance is a spear designed to be used by a mounted warrior or cavalry soldier (lancer). In ancient and medieval warfare, it evolved into the leading weapon in cavalry charges, and was unsuited for throwing or for repeated thrusting, unlike similar weapons of the javelin and pike family typically used by infantry. Lances were often equipped with a vamplate, a small circular plate to prevent the hand sliding up the shaft upon impact, and beginning in the late 14th century were used in conjunction with a lance rest attached to the breastplate. Though best known as a military and sporting weapon carried by European knights and men-at-arms, the use of lances was widespread throughout Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa wherever suitable mounts were available. Lancers of the medieval period also carried secondary weapons such as swords, battle axes, war hammers, maces and daggers for use in hand-to-hand combat, since the lance was often a one-use-per-engagement weapon; assuming the lance survived the initial impact without breaking, it was often (depending on the lance) too long, heavy, and slow to be effective against opponents in a melee.^[1]

Edited November 11, 2022 by Rudra

[Zeraphia]

I will thumbs up the post because I do think it has many more good intentions and ideas to create a unique set than the specific nit-pickings I have with the design of it overall.

 

So let's start with the very basics of the set. I think knights is a wonderful idea and concept. Broadsword minions are surprisingly not a theme MM minions have crossed yet except for the Grave Knights. Though perhaps the powerset is a little too close for comfort for what those minions in specific do, I think the powerset as a whole is a different flavor enough for most people to recognize it as still pretty unique overall.

 

There is already precedent for mainly melee MM minions especially with what's been established for Beast Mastery. I think we're at a point now where an MM walking into melee range is going to be something harder to play and deal with, but isn't so bad with the pets to peel for you and overall not the worst AT to go into melee range. So I think establishing an interesting "MasterCrapper" playstyle with bodyguard mode could be an interesting and unique playstyle though I doubt it would be a great idea lol.

 

I honestly think the "holy hand grenade" should be entirely re-conceptualized but the power itself is a decent idea for the set. You instead should just rename it to "KnightPet: Burn" that's a special TAoE power with all the things you listed in effects. Creating a fire during the battlefield or during a cold winter for the minions isn't that unexpected for knights. I would remove the "grenade" thing and just keep it as just the same power but no grenade animation and burning the ground. 

 

As for the personal MM attacks, I think a lance could be a part of the animations sure, but I also think there could be for example, some broad sword attacks or mace instead of full only lance. Possibly even, you just have the option to use whatever weapon you'd like in character selection and the powers remain sort of the same in combat effect (DPA, accuracy, aoe or st, etc.)

[PoptartsNinja]

A sword would definitely be more appropriate for a noble leader of Knights than a lance, but this also feels like it would be a good opportunity for spear as a throwing weapon. We never got thrown spears Live because of the limited animation possibilities, but Masterminds don't really need a lot of animations.

 

What about a light thrown spear, heavy thrown spear, an exploding spear, and maybe a Tier 7 that's one of the stronger Broadsword (or Katana, so the sword can be carried on the hip?) powers like Disembowl so that the player can take advantage of the new sheathed weapons to carry a sword?

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I think we're at a point now where an MM walking into melee range is going to be something harder to play and deal with, but isn't so bad with the pets to peel for you and overall not the worst AT to go into melee range. So I think establishing an interesting "MasterCrapper" playstyle with bodyguard mode could be an interesting and unique playstyle though I doubt it would be a great idea lol.

MMs do just fine in melee range. Despite their ranged inherent attacks, my MMs spend a great deal of time in melee range, though that is usually just because I don't pull back unless I need to retreat. Particularly my ninjas MM since the ninjas vastly prefer melee range and I want to keep them in Supremacy's AoE. When I still had it, my beast MM did as well. Never had a problem surviving in melee with any MM.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, PoptartsNinja said:

A sword would definitely be more appropriate for a noble leader of Knights than a lance, but this also feels like it would be a good opportunity for spear as a throwing weapon. We never got thrown spears Live because of the limited animation possibilities, but Masterminds don't really need a lot of animations.

 

What about a light thrown spear, heavy thrown spear, an exploding spear, and maybe a Tier 7 that's one of the stronger Broadsword (or Katana, so the sword can be carried on the hip?) powers like Disembowl so that the player can take advantage of the new sheathed weapons to carry a sword?

Spears weren't typically thrown, javelins were. Spears could be thrown, but their primary use was to stab someone at distance, usually while using a shield to protect you from the enemy's spear (or other weapon). Hmm... maybe we should ask for a spear Scrapper, Tanker, and Brute power set?

[AspieAnarchy]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I honestly think the "holy hand grenade" should be entirely re-conceptualized but the power itself is a decent idea for the set. You instead should just rename it to "KnightPet: Burn" that's a special TAoE power with all the things you listed in effects. Creating a fire during the battlefield or during a cold winter for the minions isn't that unexpected for knights. I would remove the "grenade" thing and just keep it as just the same power but no grenade animation and burning the ground. 

 

I'm taking it you don't recognize why it's there in the first place.

[Zeraphia]

5 minutes ago, AspieAnarchy said:

I'm taking it you don't recognize why it's there in the first place.

"Funny memes XD," "you just don't get the joke!" no, I got the joke, I considered the power worthwhile for consideration in a way that's practical and feasible (not just there because oh cool knights throwing out grenades is funny!). The snarky comments are just unneeded. Nowhere in my post was I rude to you. 

[AspieAnarchy]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Sniper attacks are long ranged, high accuracy attacks. Grenades are short range, area effect attacks. (Edit: So it's the difference of picking off targets with vital/critical shots, as opposed to taking down groups of enemies with an area attack.)

It is an interruptible ranged attack. Look at the Sniper Enhancement sets; what is there that would make it not work in a power like this?

I never even got as far as thinking about just how long its range should be, but range enhancements (which most Sniper sets include) are more useful for powers with somewhat short range (as long as it's not too short, e.g. Experimental Injection) anyways.

 

I can appreciate if it feels wrong to you conceptually, but as is, unfortunately Enhancement sets in general don't seem to care much about anything but mechanics, e.g. the Essence of Curare Hold set has nothing special to offer characters who put it in the Paralytic Poison or Poison Trap powers, nor does it even offer any especially good reason for characters with those powers to take it over other Uncommon Hold sets (and have you seen most of the components required for Invention schematics beyond the basics? No rhyme or reason at all; ticks me off).

[AspieAnarchy]

12 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

"Funny memes XD," "you just don't get the joke!" no, I got the joke, I considered the power worthwhile for consideration in a way that's practical and feasible (not just there because oh cool knights throwing out grenades is funny!). The snarky comments are just unneeded. Nowhere in my post was I rude to you. 

 

I wasn't snarky; I meant that literally. If you got the joke, I take it back. You honestly didn't sound like you did (e.g. taking it seriously enough to propose an alternative based on historical knights) - yes, I am amenable to changing a power that's so obviously a joke, but were I to do so I'd be more inclined to go back to the drawing board entirely; I had another idea for the tier-7 a while back that's unfortunately escaped me since.

 

The reactions so far, helpful and otherwise, have been entirely humorless; that was certainly not the spirit I submitted this in, so I was caught quite off-guard to be getting it in response.

Edited November 11, 2022 by AspieAnarchy

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, AspieAnarchy said:

It is an interruptible ranged attack. Look at the Sniper Enhancement sets; what is there that would make it not work in a power like this?

I never even got as far as thinking about just how long its range should be, but range enhancements (which most Sniper sets include) are more useful for powers with somewhat short range (as long as it's not too short, e.g. Experimental Injection) anyways.

 

I can appreciate if it feels wrong to you conceptually, but as is, unfortunately Enhancement sets in general don't seem to care much about anything but mechanics, e.g. the Essence of Curare Hold set has nothing special to offer characters who put it in the Paralytic Poison or Poison Trap powers, nor does it even offer any especially good reason for characters with those powers to take it over other Uncommon Hold sets (and have you seen most of the components required for Invention schematics beyond the basics? No rhyme or reason at all; ticks me off).

Humor aside, unless you intend to have a chaplain appear, hand the character the grenade, and then read out the instructions which was a big part of the humor; it's a grenade. It shouldn't have an interrupt time because no grenades in the game have interrupt times. It's not a snipe attack, it's an AoE. It should not be given an interrupt time just to be able to justify using sniper set enhancements. Especially on a power set you have set up as melee focused for the character as well as the pets. (If you want to make it different from other grenade powers in the game? Change it to a location AoE instead of a targeted one.) My ha'penny take on it anyway.

[AspieAnarchy]

37 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 It shouldn't have an interrupt time because no grenades in the game have interrupt times. It's not a snipe attack, it's an AoE.

 

That's no reason not to do something for the first time, is it?

 

Besides, you are incorrect; there is one. 

 

True, it gets a bad rap and does not allow Sniper sets itself (again, what is reason there in its mechanics that it can't or shouldn't?),

but that power's reputation might benefit from being able to take them, and I figured such a contrivance might actually work

better for an MM than a Blaster, both since it seems a bit less like gilding the lily, and having minions to run interference would

help protect you from interruption (in fact, I think more conventional sniper-powers might be a good option for MM epic pools).

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, AspieAnarchy said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

 It shouldn't have an interrupt time because no grenades in the game have interrupt times. It's not a snipe attack, it's an AoE.

 

That's no reason not to do something for the first time, is it?

 

Besides, you are incorrect; there is one. 

There is one what? A grenade with an interrupt time? Where?

 

Sleep Grenade

Launches a Sleep Grenade at long range from beneath the barrel of your Assault Rifle. This small blast does minor smashing damage but affects all foes within the blast radius, and can knock them back. You must be level 38 and have Body Armor or Cryo Freeze Ray before selecting this power.

Damage	Minor(Smashing)
Recharge	Slow
Minimum Level	38 (Blaster)
Effects	Ranged (Targeted Aarea of Effect)
	Foe Sleep
Enhancements	Enhance Accuracy
	Enhance Damage
	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Enhance Range
	Increase Attack Rate
	Enhance Sleep Duration
Set Categories	Ranged AoE Damage
	Sleep

 

And from City of Data:

• Interrupt Time -

 

Sleep Grenade has no interrupt time. Neither does it use snipe set enhancements. (Edit: If you're instead talking LRM Rocket, it does have an interrupt time, but it is not a grenade and cannot slot sniper set enhancements according to your link. As for why it can't slot snipe set enhancements? My guess would be because it isn't a snipe.)

Edited November 11, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, AspieAnarchy said:

but range enhancements (which most Sniper sets include) are more useful for powers with somewhat short range (as long as it's not too short, e.g. Experimental Injection) anyways.

There are 4 Targeted AoE Damage enhancement sets that have range enhancements in them. 2 have 1 such enhancemet, and 2 have 2. The sniper sets have 1 such enhancement each except for Experienced Marksman which has 2.

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

And the whip in CoX isn't a melee weapon. It's a ranged one. Even Lash, as a "Close" attack has a 20 feet range.

Just an observation: The Lash power from Demon Summoning has a melee attack icon, and the power detailed info says it goes against melee defense. Therefore it is a melee attack, for all that it can reach out twenty feet.

[Gobbledigook]

The MM could just use Archery attacks. Not as exciting though.

The Paladin could be renamed to Champion. A paladin with a PBAoE heal could be nice though.

 

A Medieval theme could also be....

3 Archers

2 men at arms/foot soldier

1 Knight

 

But i like it 🙂

 

[TheZag]

I enjoyed the monty python refrence and if the knights say 'ni' when summoned,  this set will be perfect.

 

[Disruptor]

There is another server that does Knights MM already fairly well. The MM itself uses a few Axe attacks from Battle Axe. The final pet "Knight" is akin to a Broadsword/Shield Brute. The earlier pets are Archers and Men At Arms.

[biostem]

I would do something like:

 

T1 - 2 footmen using broadswords and shields, 1 cleric with a mace, shield, and a heal-other power.

T2 - 2 archers, possibly getting some nature or plant powers via an upgrade.

T3 - A wizard with power bolt (as magic missiles), fireball, and maybe lightning storm later on.

 

Alternatively, the T3 could be something like a berserker using titan weapons, and you yourself would be the wizard, gaining the energy, fire, and electrical attacks.  Something like a "battle cry", which temporarily buffs your minions would be cool, as the special ability.

[Rudra]

If we're looking at modifying the pets from the proposed set, then my suggestion would be:

 

Tier 1 pets:  Infantry:                3 light infantry armed with arming swords and shield.

Tier 2 pets:  Men-At-Arms:      2 heavy warriors in heavy armor armed with axe/mace and shield. (1 has the axe, and the other has the mace. Same attacks between them.)

                                               Supplemental powers: Rally (grant combat bonuses to the other MM pets) and Taunt(?).

Tier 3 pet:    Paladin:                Heavy armor champion armed with broadsword and shield. Has support ability/abilities. (Maybe the aforementioned AoE heal?)

Edited November 12, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to fix alignment.

[AspieAnarchy]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

There is one what? A grenade with an interrupt time? Where?

 

Sleep Grenade has no interrupt time. Neither does it use snipe set enhancements. (Edit: If you're instead talking LRM Rocket, it does have an interrupt time, but it is not a grenade and cannot slot sniper set enhancements according to your link....

 

Yes, it should've been obvious from the start I was referring to LRM Rocket; I don't know how to quote the page like you did there.

 

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

...As for why it can't slot snipe set enhancements? My guess would be because it isn't a snipe.)

 

So what?

Look at the Sniper Enhancement sets - even if something doesn't have the extra damage of a true sniper attack,

why couldn't any attack that is both ranged and interruptible benefit from them?

 

If the Invention system itself demonstrated much regard for tradition or in-game versimillitude, I might see your

point, but that bird flew a long time ago. It's almost like you're saying the Cleaving Blow set should only be applicable

to PBAoE attacks from weapon-based sets like Battle Axe/Broad Sword/War Mace and not to Energy/Fire/Radiation/Blast;

I respect where that view would come from, but as is, the system doesn't care.

[Rudra]

Why are you so bothered by this? You yourself said you were willing to reconsider that power. The snipe attacks are all single target attacks. They aren't AoEs. So LRM Rocket doesn't get access to the snipe enhancement sets because it is an AoE. Same thing with the Holy Hand Grenade. It's an AoE even if it were made long range for some reason and made to have the interrupt. I didn't make the enhancement sets or decide on the rules about which ones should apply to what. I'm just pointing out what is and is not in the game and my best guess as to why.

 

Further, it seems that the main reason you want the snipe enhancements for that power is for the range boost the snipe sets have. Well, targeted AoE damage enhancement sets also include range boosts in 4 of their sets, 2 of which have more boosts than all but 1 of the snipe sets. So you can still buff their range without trying to justify making a power use both snipe and targeted AoE sets.

 

As for Cleaving Blow? It is a PBAoE enhancement set. So if the attack is a PBAoE, it can use Cleaving Blow. Regardless of whether it is a weapon attack or an energy attack.

 

(Edit: Also, LRM Rocket isn't a grenade. Even in its animation, it is a rifle-fired rocket. A mini-rocket, but still a rocket. So it is not a grenade with an interrupt.)

Edited November 12, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, AspieAnarchy said:

I don't know how to quote the page like you did there.

Click and hold at one end of what you want to copy, then drag until what you want to copy is highlighted. CTRL+C to copy it or right click and choose copy. Then just paste into your post.