Melee Powerset Comparison

[DrunkFlux]

Since you mentions procs and having the chart be made with procs in mind.  But theres also another reason why some people would prefer a "no proc" test; besides working at different %'s of triggering across sets they also, at least IMO, don't truely reflect where a set truely is in regards to balance, not accurately anyways.  I think the devs want the sets to be balanced with or without procs.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Thanks for posting that chart, Ston.

 

Next time someone suggests StJ as an alternative to SS I'm going to point them to this thread. 

[Gobbledigook]

10 hours ago, DrunkFlux said:

Since you mentions procs and having the chart be made with procs in mind.  But theres also another reason why some people would prefer a "no proc" test; besides working at different %'s of triggering across sets they also, at least IMO, don't truely reflect where a set truely is in regards to balance, not accurately anyways.  I think the devs want the sets to be balanced with or without procs.

Proc it! or get the Proc out!! Who gives a proc!!! 🤪

[Ston]

28 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Proc it! or get the Proc out!! Who gives a proc!!! 🤪

 

11 hours ago, DrunkFlux said:

Since you mentions procs and having the chart be made with procs in mind.  But theres also another reason why some people would prefer a "no proc" test; besides working at different %'s of triggering across sets they also, at least IMO, don't truely reflect where a set truely is in regards to balance, not accurately anyways.  I think the devs want the sets to be balanced with or without procs.

 

I think builds with procs are the best to use for benchmarks right now. Especially to have metrics to compare when/of proc changes come.

 

Wish i had time to do the test again with limited procs. I’ve done a few comparisons with proc limitations on claws & axe and the results were similar. The Tanker still cleared faster than the Brute but the gap was slightly smaller. 

 

I don’t think any set benefits from PPM drastically more than others. If a set has lower PPM, it just means it can use attacks more often. 

 

 

[Erratic1]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Thanks for posting that chart, Ston.

 

Next time someone suggests StJ as an alternative to SS I'm going to point them to this thread. 

 

While I nearly spoke up to object in a certain current Tanker Super Strength thread about how StJ is not a substitute for SS (I have Brutes with both), I would note that in terms of Tanker average time that while StJ is considerably down the list from Super Strength, the difference in average time is only 33s, roughly 12% longer for StJ than SS. 

 

As goes Brutes though, the difference is 56s--roughly 20%.

 

Foot Stomp trounces Spinning Strike with more than double the radius and only a slightly longer recharge. Gotta wonder if Spinning Strike had better radius how much closer StJ would come.

[Erratic1]

Brutes only meaningfully outperforming Tankers in 3 of the 20 sets and performing last in 13 of them, eh?

 

Probably for the best otherwise Scrapper and Tankers will be invalidated, nobody will play them, and even if someone did play them they would not get invites.*

 

 

 

 

*This does not hold for Brutes because...well, Brutes.

[Gobbledigook]

Procs help to even the field because they don't care what AT uses them.

 

I think it would be best not to use procs for the test then we can see just how much difference the procs are making.

 

But as i said the Tanker hits more targets and the Brute hits harder. This makes them fairly even clearing trash especially when procs are used, but the Brute will pull ahead on a hard target but be less survivable unless team buffed.

 

A Brute can not have near Scrapper damage and near Tanker survival. We know a Scrapper out damages a Tanker by quite a margin and a Brute does also, it is the extra radius of Tankers and procs which are closing the gaps.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[DrunkFlux]

5 hours ago, Ston said:

 

 

I think builds with procs are the best to use for benchmarks right now. Especially to have metrics to compare when/of proc changes come.

 

Wish i had time to do the test again with limited procs. I’ve done a few comparisons with proc limitations on claws & axe and the results were similar. The Tanker still cleared faster than the Brute but the gap was slightly smaller. 

 

I don’t think any set benefits from PPM drastically more than others. If a set has lower PPM, it just means it can use attacks more often. 

 

 

That first commend is actually very dangerous, heres why.

 

Procs are overpowered and sadly have to be nerfed, many people and the devs know this.  To say that they are the benchmark for powersets for future balancing of powersets is faulty, it could lead to overbuffing sets very seriously if we were to assume procs are what to balance around.  They are a TERRIBLE metric to balance around right now until a direction is establshed on what has to happen to them.  Metrics to compare for procs themselves is fine, I don't think procs metrics are good for checking the balance of the sets themselves though.  Thats like making scientific tests without having a control.

 

Two, not everyone likes using tons of procs, and it should not be the "ONLY WAY TO PLAY!", not by a landslide.

 

On the last point if you have cooldown between attacks your not doing it right :), should always have an attack ready at high end builds and should be zero time between your attacks unless your jousting/repositioning.  The only thing that matters at that point is damage to activation time(higher the better) and how that effects procs.  Some powers cooldown longer, yes, thats why you have faster powers for use while they are in cooldown.  So in that sense, it could easily end up with higher proc rates for some sets and lower for others, when those others would otherwise perform stronger compared to other sets.

[Gobbledigook]

I wonder why the Brute uses Vigor Core and the Scrapper/Tanker use Musculature. That is less damage for the Brute and if the Scrapper can survive then so can the Brute. Put musculature  on the Brute and they will perform even better.

 

How much +recharge was used? did you slot FF procs where you could? what procs were used? and so on.

 

I see a Scrapper not using a taunt set and a Brute not using a damage incarnate. That is giving favor to the Tanker in the builds and not an even comparison.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Snarky]

Tankers damage was way buffed recently.   This is because the current Devs make little secret that they are writing the content for a team of Corruptors and one Tank.  Sure, you can bring something else.  And do slightly (greatly?) worse.  They are rewarding the buff debuff mechanics and individual players that are not tam focused can just deal with it.  Tankers were rewarded because the Devs need one Tank to make the mmorpg combat model work..  Brutes?  Been getting hit with the nerf bat since they came out.  Shocked that Tanks are doing better than Brutes?  I would be shocked if they were not.  Scrappers have largely been ignored, Stalkers got a major rewrite.  Brutes?  You mention Brutes?  Quick, someone grab the nerf bat!!! 

[Astralock]

51 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I wonder why the Brute uses Vigor Core and the Scrapper/Tanker use Musculature. That is less damage for the Brute and if the Scrapper can survive then so can the Brute. Put musculature  on the Brute and they will perform even better.

 

How much +recharge was used? did you slot FF procs where you could? what procs were used? and so on.

 

I see a Scrapper not using a taunt set and a Brute not using a damage incarnate. That is giving favor to the Tanker in the builds and not an even comparison.

 

+Damage doesn't work so well in conjunction with Fury.  So slotting Musculature Alpha doesn't do as much on Brutes as it does on Scrappers and Tankers.

[Ston]

56 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I wonder why the Brute uses Vigor Core and the Scrapper/Tanker use Musculature. That is less damage for the Brute and if the Scrapper can survive then so can the Brute. Put musculature  on the Brute and they will perform even better.

 

How much +recharge was used? did you slot FF procs where you could? what procs were used? and so on.

 

I see a Scrapper not using a taunt set and a Brute not using a damage incarnate. That is giving favor to the Tanker in the builds and not an even comparison.

 

Musculature really doesn't help Brutes. I gave them Vigor for acc/end/healing and trade an acc/dam HO for an additional damage proc in all their attacks.

For example, take a lvl 50 Energy Melee Brute (Energy Punch):
Base damage = 48.38
85% Fury = 130.6
Musculature Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 2) + 4 procs = 308.3

Vigor Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 1) + 5 procs = 293.6

So it usually makes sense to trade the marginal damage for more accuracy and endurance since Brutes need less damage slotting than a Tanker. You usually won't be able to get enough accuracy with Musculature without sacrificing a damage proc.

Also, it's fair to have Scrappers chase enemies occsionally. They don't have punchvoke like Brutes/Tankers.

And yes, damage procs were always used unless FF, -Resistance, or Chance for BU were available. And prioritized procs that are less likely to be resisted.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Ston

[Glacier Peak]

Taking the time to do this AND sharing the results with the community - nice work there @Ston!

[Gobbledigook]

Maybe it isn't for Brutes but it is still better than Vigor for damage, but if you compensated then that can work also.

 

I think you need to do a Scrapper test with a taunt set still. Let's see if it makes a difference. A hard target also.

 

Scrappers, Brutes and Tankers are all really good trash clearers though.

[Snarky]

I get why the Devs wanted to buff the crap out of Tanks.  But since it breaks character creation by making only one optimal melee AT class it really sucks the fun out of choosing.

[twozerofoxtrot]

29 minutes ago, Snarky said:

only one optimal melee AT class it really sucks the fun out of choosing.

 

Funny, that's exactly where Brutes were before the tanker buffs. 

[Gobbledigook]

Is this thread unbiased or is it another attempt to nerf Tankers?

 

The damage scale needs to stay. We lost Bruising and got a damage scale increase to compensate. Returning the Tanker to pre I26 would be awful to say the least lol with no Bruising and that mechanic was junk. 

 

If the damage scale dropped then the tanker becomes just a meat shield again and will struggle to take bosses down with their regen etc and players will abandon the class once again. This game has moved on a long time ago from Tanker and healer etc. Most classes are quite self sufficient with IO's now.

 

I am not entirely against changes to the extra AoE though.

 

Brutes were a big part of the reason Tankers got a buff.

 

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Captain Powerhouse.

The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point.

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Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Funny, that's exactly where Brutes were before the tanker buffs. 

Flat out wrong.  Brutes were nerfed on live a couple times and Scrappers outdamage them.  (pssst, look at the charts) and Tankers had more armor.  

 

Now Tankers do more damage than Brutes or Scrappers thanks to giant AoE patches and damage scalar buff, ...still have more armor.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Snarky

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Is this thread unbiased or is it another attempt to nerf Tankers?

 

The damage scale needs to stay. We lost Bruising and got a damage scale increase to compensate. Returning the Tanker to pre I26 would be awful to say the least lol with no Bruising and that mechanic was junk. 

 

If the damage scale dropped then the tanker becomes just a meat shield again and will struggle to take bosses down with their regen etc and players will abandon the class once again. This game has moved on a long time ago from Tanker and healer etc. Most classes are quite self sufficient with IO's now.

 

I am not entirely against changes to the extra AoE though.

 

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Captain Powerhouse.

The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point.

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I honestly think they should just keep buffing Tanks.  I have pretty much decided just to run them.  You can argue with the wind or you can put a sail on your boat and go with it.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

Flat out wrong.  Brutes were nerfed on live a couple times and Scrappers outdamage them.  (pssst, look at the charts) and Tankers had more armor.  

 

Now Tankers do more damage than Brutes or Scrappers thanks to giant AoE patches and....still have more armor.

But they don't. At the least it shows they are quite even in clearing trash but there can be many variables fudging it. On hard targets they are not even at all. 

[Gobbledigook]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I honestly think they should just keep buffing Tanks.  I have pretty much decided just to run them.  You can argue with the wind or you can put a sail on your boat and go with it.

When you actually ask for a Brute buff or ask for a decent ATO for them i will be 110% behind you. Clear horizons until then 😉

[Snarky]

14 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

When you actually ask for a Brute buff or ask for a decent ATO for them i will be 110% behind you. Clear horizons until then 😉

*coughs.   Yeah, I never thought to chime in on any of the dozen previous threads asking for changes to Brutes or Brute ATOs.  

[Ston]

39 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

But they don't. At the least it shows they are quite even in clearing trash but there can be many variables fudging it. On hard targets they are not even at all. 

 

Do you have numbers to support this?

 

I’ve done Pylon tests and Tankers can beat Brutes. I’ve also recorded the time it takes to kill Trapdoor and the Tankers usually kill him faster too. The build up procs really let Tanks catch up in ST dps. 

[Snarky]

29 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

Do you have numbers to support this?

 

I’ve done Pylon tests and Tankers can beat Brutes. I’ve also recorded the time it takes to kill Trapdoor and the Tankers usually kill him faster too. The build up procs really let Tanks catch up in ST dps. 

And my solo run build (i have two builds on favorites) will leverage Build Ups and Damage procs.  While my team build will have the higher armor and be a taunt bot.  Since my main is an Invul Dark the larger AoE supercharges Soul Drain and makes that more useful on the Tank.  (This means more damage)

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Is this thread unbiased or is it another attempt to nerf Tankers?

 

The damage scale needs to stay. We lost Bruising and got a damage scale increase to compensate. Returning the Tanker to pre I26 would be awful to say the least lol with no Bruising and that mechanic was junk. 

 

If the damage scale dropped then the tanker becomes just a meat shield again and will struggle to take bosses down with their regen etc and players will abandon the class once again. This game has moved on a long time ago from Tanker and healer etc. Most classes are quite self sufficient with IO's now.

 

I am not entirely against changes to the extra AoE though.

 

Brutes were a big part of the reason Tankers got a buff.

 

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Captain Powerhouse.

The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point.

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Well with any data, it's important to validate it independently to ensure accuracy. On the other hand, I can completely ignore that previous statement by saying this is a video game that I'm able to play less and less and someone else already did the work. I'm confident in the results based on my own confirmation bias, but if I wasn't, I'd provide my own data conducted using the same methodology as the original poster.