Rewrite Lt Harris's arc redside so it's not so offensive

[GamerKate]

Lt Harris's arc redside, the Price of Friendship (lvl range 5-7) is terrible. Lt Harris wants to take down Longbow because he asked a woman out and she said No.

 

This in itself isn't so much of an issue, Lt Harris is clearly an asshole, or at best mentally ill, either way his rationale doesn't need to be sound.

 

1. However, when we get to one of the finales of the arc, the final combat of the mission is against her, and the player is instructed to 'Defeat Harris's GF' - Well, she's not his GF. She told him to gtfo, and you can't be someone's GF or BF if you don't agree to it. She is Lt Page, and the instructions should refer to her as such and not erase her name and reduce her to an attachment for the contact.

 

2. Unless the player fails the mission, Lt Page dies, and she really dies because previously to the fight you sabotage the medi-porters so she can't be ported to the hospital. The narrative delivery reminds you of this. Now this is villainside, and heroes die, so this in itself isn't such a problem. However:

 

3. After she dies, Harris falls to his knees and starts crying and regretting it and oh no what have I done, maybe I am really a monster after all?! So what we have here is a man who let's charitably say had mental health issues (paranoia, it would seem by the writing), who refused to get professional help when it would have been appropriate (and it's also implied by the writing that Lt Page suggested that too at an earlier stage), but who comes to a breakthrough and grows emotionally when a woman dies.

 

This is a comic book setting. Here is a story where a woman dies in order to enable a man to undergo character development and grow emotionally.  And to add to the Ugh, because of course it's the player's mission, the writing makes the Player do this. The player fridges a woman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

 

4. After this, the player does get the choice to kill Lt Harris. But the player also gets the choice to agree with him and tell him he was right.

 

So the player has the option to agree that murdering women for saying No to entitled men is ok.

 

"So what? My character's a villain, and a misogynist!" some might protest. Well, we don't have story arcs where our characters can be pedofiles or murder people specifically because they are people of colour, or where we orchestrate atrocities like the Boston Bombing, do we? And we can't wander around Mercy Island one-shotting civilians either.

 

5. Lt Page is supposed to be the reason why Lt Harris went mad or whatever. She should be awesome, if we are to believe a rejection from her would be so horrible. As the arc stands, she's nothing special. IMy suggestion to improve this arc's unfortunate ideology is to have everything the same except that the fight ends like this:

 

Upon defeat (or at 25% health if the tech requires it) she says "Attention Arachnos Control. This is Lt Page. Fort Mercy is down! I'm activating emergency teleport! Evacuate!" and activates her own personal teleport device (the standard 'teleport' animation will do).

Lt Harris says "What? But we sabotaged the mediport, you can't-"

Lt Page says "You don't get to tell me what I can or cannot do, Bill. I don't use the mediport. I rely on myself. Now get some help,"

Lt Page vanishes.

 

And then the interaction between the player and Harris can be tweaked so that instead of wailing about her death, it goes like this:

 

Harris: "What?... I failed...... she got away, Character? But I was so certain my plan would work.

 

I thought I was better... I thought I deserved her! But she...she beat me... and this, seeing them run and die...doesn't give me anything.

 

Was I... was I right in all of this? Was I truly right in trying to stop them? Maybe... there really is something wrong with me"

 

All the rest can stay the same.

 

To conclude, altering the arc like this would:

 

a. Stop it being such a misogynist trope

b. Give our villain a stronger hero (narratively) to fight against

c. Not remove the agency from the player, as narratively, the reaosn for the player's involvement was to kick Longbow out of Mercy, not to murder one woman.

 

MCM

 

[Clave Dark 5]

+1 Inf, as they say.  I haven't spent much time redside (I really need to make a good MM for soloing over there again) and had forgotten about this story.

[PaxArcana]

-1

 

(a) it's a Villain arc.  It's supposed to be bad-guy stuff.

 

(b) if I'm thinking of the right one .... at the end, it shows itself to be as horrible as we, the not-villainous players, understand it to be.

 

© therefor it's just fine as-is.

[GamerKate]

-1

 

(a) it's a Villain arc.  It's supposed to be bad-guy stuff.

 

(b) if I'm thinking of the right one .... at the end, it shows itself to be as horrible as we, the not-villainous players, understand it to be.

 

© therefor it's just fine as-is.

 

(a) As I said in my post, ‘it’s supposed to be bad-guy stuff’ could be used to excuse pedofilia or racist murder by our characters, but those stories would rightfully be objected to by the playerbase because they’re repulsive.

 

The fact that murdering women for rejecting men is not apparently considered repulsive by some players is because of what’s referenced in the women in fridges discussion, which you can easily find by clicking he wiki link in my OP. TLDR; it’s because of misogyny. I hope nobody wants misogyny in our awesome game. :)

 

MCM

[PaxArcana]

I notice you completely ignored my point (b) ...?

[Coyote]

Well written argument.

 

I agree that the "girlfriend" should be changed to Lt Page.

I think that Lt Page should be more scary at the end than a weak Lt. But it's not very important.

 

I think that otherwise, it's a villain-side arc about a mentally unbalanced person bent on unreasonable revenge. I think there are nastier arcs out there, and I think that players playing villains can realize the difference between the evil of their characters and reality. I mean, we have characters spreading plague, destroying city blocks for fun, killing helpless bystanders and prisoners just because, and so on. This doesn't seem worse.

 

Edit: before I get accused, this has nothing to do with misogyny. I would have the same exact opinion if the genders of the characters were reversed, and for the same exact reasons.

[BeeVee]

During Vigilante missions, you have the opportunity to commit acts of terrorism by blowing bases sky high and causing tons of collateral damage, execute 'bad guys' and generally engage in all levels of debased behaviour in the name of the 'greater good' in time, becoming a villain yourself. This is no more misandrist than killing page is misogynist..

 

In order for it to qualify as misogyny, it has to be motivated specifically by a hatred of women. It does not. Harris' motivations are insanity and revenge for his perceived slight. Whereas the character's motivations are projected on by the player and in the case of what's offered by the game, the powers that be want the base wiped out and it's Arachnos' house and therefore Arachnos' rules. Harris does not go on rants about any women besides Page, nor does he target women besides Page.

 

Now let's discuss Page. As an agent of Freedom Corps, Page is supposed to see the liberation of Mercy from Arachnos. Having her suddenly turn tail and run away does a disservice to both her and the organization, especially given Longbow isn't seen in a positive light by the base at large. The fact that she's outnumbered and outgunned and still fights valiantly actually did a bit to redeem Longbow (as much as they can be redeemed, anyway. Those costumes are garish) insofar as I was concerned.

 

I disagree that the arc should be rewritten, especially given you have an opportunity to murder Harris immediately after. This is after potentially killing Stanzini, Fire Wire (or Psi Lass), breaking limbs of Longbow Agents, wiping out one (or two) of their installations, slaughtering a bunch of cops... You're more than welcome to cite your character's motivations as misogynist, but I honestly feel that you're chasing ghosts searching for an intent that simply isn't there.

[PaxArcana]

And here's another way to look at it:

 

Would the story materially change, if we swapped the genders of the two primary characters?

 

How about if they were both the same gender, especially if both were men?

 

But, in any case, not one single other word was changed?

 

...

 

IMO, no.  Harris has a serious mental health problem, and has gone off the deep end.  It wouldn't matter if Harris was a he or a she.  It wouldn't matter if Page was a she or a he.  The story would play out exactly the same, IMO.

 

...

 

And my Demon/Thermal MM Incabulos would still have left Harris, broken and sobbing, on the floor with the full realization of what he'd just done ... and for how little real reason.

[Primantis]

 

In order for it to qualify as misogyny, it has to be motivated specifically by a hatred of women. It does not. Harris' motivations are insanity and revenge for his perceived slight. Whereas the character's motivations are projected on by the player and in the case of what's offered by the game, the powers that be want the base wiped out and it's Arachnos' house and therefore Arachnos' rules. Harris does not go on rants about any women besides Page, nor does he target women besides Page.

 

 

 

 

This. It does not come off as misogyny to me. It comes off as a psychopath getting revenge on someone, for something he perceives as a wrong-doing towards him. You could replace the girl with a potential (male) business partner and change the name from "Girlfriend" to "Business Partner" and the story could fold out in exactly the same manner.

 

"How dare he not agree to my business pact, he must die!"

 

 

[GamerKate]

Well written argument.

 

I agree that the "girlfriend" should be changed to Lt Page.

I think that Lt Page should be more scary at the end than a weak Lt. But it's not very important.

 

I think that otherwise, it's a villain-side arc about a mentally unbalanced person bent on unreasonable revenge. I think there are nastier arcs out there, and I think that players playing villains can realize the difference between the evil of their characters and reality. I mean, we have characters spreading plague, destroying city blocks for fun, killing helpless bystanders and prisoners just because, and so on. This doesn't seem worse.

 

Edit: before I get accused, this has nothing to do with misogyny. I would have the same exact opinion if the genders of the characters were reversed, and for the same exact reasons.

 

I say with without any wish to attack, but I think you shouldn’t have the exact same opinion for the exact same reasons if the genders were reversed. Because this issue - violence against women compared to violence against men - is not equal. Men don’t get murdered for rejecting women to any kind of equivalent level. There is no ‘Men in Fridges’ trope.

 

MCM

[golstat2003]

Agree with all he reasoning given as to why the story SHOULDN'T be re-written. This is City of Villains. If you aren't fine with such things (or the later doozies that come up) you should not be on the Villain side. You have the option to go Rogue, Vigilante or Hero.

 

Keep in mind, as has been pointed out, at that point in your Villain career you're still also a lackey of Arachnos. An org that kills folks for simply breathing wrong.

[golstat2003]

Well written argument.

 

I agree that the "girlfriend" should be changed to Lt Page.

I think that Lt Page should be more scary at the end than a weak Lt. But it's not very important.

 

I think that otherwise, it's a villain-side arc about a mentally unbalanced person bent on unreasonable revenge. I think there are nastier arcs out there, and I think that players playing villains can realize the difference between the evil of their characters and reality. I mean, we have characters spreading plague, destroying city blocks for fun, killing helpless bystanders and prisoners just because, and so on. This doesn't seem worse.

 

Edit: before I get accused, this has nothing to do with misogyny. I would have the same exact opinion if the genders of the characters were reversed, and for the same exact reasons.

 

I say with without any wish to attack, but I think you shouldn’t have the exact same opinion for the exact same reasons if the genders were reversed. Because this issue - violence against women compared to violence against men - is not equal. Men don’t get murdered for rejecting women to any kind of equivalent level. There is no ‘Men in Fridges’ trope.

 

MCM

 

If they simply swapped the genders or made Lt Page a man would you be fine with the arc?

 

The fact that she's a woman wasn't the point of the arc.

 

The point was that both you (the Arachnos lackey Villian) and the fellow Villain giving the assignment are evil. (And the other guy being patently insane). That's emphasized by the fact that you have the option to outright kill him.

[Rhinoxx]

I agree on the GF issue - that is just a writing fumble that should be kept.

 

Otherwise yes, its an evil villain arc and should be kept as it is - just like those nasty missions for the efficiency expert at Grandville - this is the closest we actually come to villainy in the game and it's healthy; maybe this is the part where your character thinks the grass actually IS greener in Paragon City and decides to go blue - or maybe, just maybe, he/she is an actual villain who's moral compass points directly to Hell?

 

Offense is taken not given as someone once said - it's good to keep some of that around so we are reminded forcefully of how things also are.

[EggKookoo]

I say with without any wish to attack, but I think you shouldn’t have the exact same opinion for the exact same reasons if the genders were reversed. Because this issue - violence against women compared to violence against men - is not equal. Men don’t get murdered for rejecting women to any kind of equivalent level. There is no ‘Men in Fridges’ trope.

 

Ah, and there it is. I was waiting for the "your opinion is irrelevant" response.

 

I'm reminded of that Snickers ad a couple years back with Roseanne Barr, before all the controversy around her show revival. She's playing a lumberyard worker (really another guy, but because he's hangry they had Roseanne play his snarky self). At one point as part of the comedy of the ad, she gets whacked by a log and knocked over and then lays there in the mud with a stunned expression. Pretty standard slapstick stuff.

 

Then came the cries that the ad glorified violence against women. The mind boggles.

 

Anyway, in before threadlock. I can see we've probably hit peak sophistication in this discussion.

[Leogunner]

OP, I'm sorry you cannot separate gender politics from a revenge story.

 

Harris isn't attacking women for his hatred of women. He's attacking someone who he felt slighted by. If the genders were reverse or same sex, the premise wouldn't change which should have been your clue to treat your thesis.

 

Also, just because a women became a victim of a crime doesn't mean we can put fault to an entire demographic or use trope theory to explain away a cliché. Utitimately, the story was cliché, yes, but you're attacking the issue from a completely defensible angle.

[justicebeliever]

I always appreciate your attention to story MrCaptainMan, you love a good bio, do great work on Mission Architect...

 

Is this an example of poor writing?  Yes

 

Is this an example of Women in Fridges?  Yes

 

Does the argument, well if the roles were reversed, would it still be an issue, work?  No...because you are right, there is a bias of violence against women from men that isn't present in the reverse...

 

Is it misogynistic?  No...Even in the Wikipedia page it doesn't reference this trope as misogyny, just a bad bias and bad writing.

 

Does it compare to targeting people of color or children?  No, it doesn't compare.  Lt Page isn't sexually assualted, she's not targeted as a "class" of person, she's targeted as insane object of affection of a whackjob...

 

Should the dev's take time to rewrite it?  I would hope not, simply because this seems like it's a low priority affecting a few small people...

 

Suggestion:  Why not take a stab at rewriting it yourself?  Put a revamped version in MA?  If it get's traction, it would be less work for the Dev's to update it...

[EggKookoo]

I'd like to say that despite my averse reaction to accusations of misogyny with regard to the mission, I do agree the text should say her name rather than "girlfriend," simply because the latter is inaccurate.

[roBurky]

Lt Harris's arc redside, the Price of Friendship (lvl range 5-7) is terrible. Lt Harris wants to take down Longbow because he asked a woman out and she said No.

Thank you for making this post @MrCaptainMan! I had the same thoughts when I played this mission. It made me severely uncomfortable. There's a bunch of this kind of weird gender content in the game, but I think you've usefully identified the strongest details that make this particular mission something that stands out as reinforcing misogyny instead of merely depicting it.

 

- The objective reference to Lt Page as 'girlfriend'

- The player taking part in the murder of a woman for rejecting a man

- The player being given the option to agree that this was right

 

[GamerKate]

During Vigilante missions, you have the opportunity to commit acts of terrorism by blowing bases sky high and causing tons of collateral damage, execute 'bad guys' and generally engage in all levels of debased behaviour in the name of the 'greater good' in time, becoming a villain yourself. This is no more misandrist than killing page is misogynist..

 

In order for it to qualify as misogyny, it has to be motivated specifically by a hatred of women. It does not. Harris' motivations are insanity and revenge for his perceived slight. Whereas the character's motivations are projected on by the player and in the case of what's offered by the game, the powers that be want the base wiped out and it's Arachnos' house and therefore Arachnos' rules. Harris does not go on rants about any women besides Page, nor does he target women besides Page.

 

Now let's discuss Page. As an agent of Freedom Corps, Page is supposed to see the liberation of Mercy from Arachnos. Having her suddenly turn tail and run away does a disservice to both her and the organization, especially given Longbow isn't seen in a positive light by the base at large. The fact that she's outnumbered and outgunned and still fights valiantly actually did a bit to redeem Longbow (as much as they can be redeemed, anyway. Those costumes are garish) insofar as I was concerned.

 

I disagree that the arc should be rewritten, especially given you have an opportunity to murder Harris immediately after. This is after potentially killing Stanzini, Fire Wire (or Psi Lass), breaking limbs of Longbow Agents, wiping out one (or two) of their installations, slaughtering a bunch of cops... You're more than welcome to cite your character's motivations as misogynist, but I honestly feel that you're chasing ghosts searching for an intent that simply isn't there.

 

I am not saying that Harris is a misogynist. I am saying that the writing is misogynist because it is a textbook example of the Women in Fridges trope.

 

The arc would be LESS sexist if Harris was unrepentant about Page’ death, because at least then her death would not be narratively pointless apart from serving to act as a trigger for a man’s emotional redemption.

 

Women should not have to die for men to deal with their shit.

 

And the end of Captain Marvel was indeed great .D

 

MCM

[GamerKate]

I say with without any wish to attack, but I think you shouldn’t have the exact same opinion for the exact same reasons if the genders were reversed. Because this issue - violence against women compared to violence against men - is not equal. Men don’t get murdered for rejecting women to any kind of equivalent level. There is no ‘Men in Fridges’ trope.

 

Ah, and there it is. I was waiting for the "your opinion is irrelevant" response.

 

I'm reminded of that Snickers ad a couple years back with Roseanne Barr, before all the controversy around her show revival. She's playing a lumberyard worker (really another guy, but because he's hangry they had Roseanne play his snarky self). At one point as part of the comedy of the ad, she gets whacked by a log and knocked over and then lays there in the mud with a stunned expression. Pretty standard slapstick stuff.

 

Then came the cries that the ad glorified violence against women. The mind boggles.

 

Anyway, in before threadlock. I can see we've probably hit peak sophistication in this discussion.

 

I unreservedly apologise if I came across as trying to say your opinion was irrelevant. I don’t think that at all. I’m absolutely not trying to start or contribute to an angry flame war or anything. I know that gender equality can be a difficult subject to discuss but I hope we can do so without offense.

 

I can’t stand Roseanne Barr and I don’t recall the ad I’m sorry.

 

MCM

 

 

[justicebeliever]

LOL. You must have loved Captain Marvel.

 

Lord knows I did...And clearly a bunch of other people who went and saw it at the box office - #122 Most selling movie ever...

[Leogunner]

I find it funny how people are latching onto how the objective states that Page is his GF as inaccurate.

 

Uh, no duh.  Technically, that flavor text is your character being cheeky and intentionally offensive to Harris.  It's actually a jab at Harris, not Page.  It's very common, actually, to poke fun of guys that are single or who do not have the game to get the person they have their eye on...but no one is actually arguing how it is offensive toward Harris at all lol.  Apparently, we're to assume it's a direct jab at Page who doesn't even know or could have any idea that text or intent exists until we confront her.  Contrarily, with Harris, who we directly interact with, it is implied we corrupt or spark his emotions intentionally.

 

But ok.  I'm glad you're keeping it real and looking out for the wahmens.  Keep up the good work  :P

[Leogunner]

 

Women should not have to die for men to deal with their shit.

 

 

 

Correction: NO ONE should have to die for ANYONE to deal with their shit.

 

But yeah, equality amirite?

 

OR! We can just accept that there is writing we do not like and do our best to make better products in the future.  Rail on about how you can do it better, sure.  You however open yourself up to just as much criticism so be prepared.

[justicebeliever]

 

Women should not have to die for men to deal with their shit.

 

 

 

Correction: NO ONE should have to die for ANYONE to deal with their shit.

 

But yeah, equality amirite?

 

OR! We can just accept that there is writing we do not like and do our best to make better products in the future.  Rail on about how you can do it better, sure.  You however open yourself up to just as much criticism so be prepared.

 

Leogunner - so what MrCaptainMan said was true, right?  Women (being someone) should not have to die for men (being anyone) to deal with their shit.  Since the example in this case was specifically about a woman dying for a man to realize his flaws, and not about all people dying for someone to realize their flaws, I think he nailed it, right?

 

You correction is unnecessary and obscures the issue, so not really equality...

[BeeVee]

I am not saying that Harris is a misogynist. I am saying that the writing is misogynist because it is a textbook example of the Women in Fridges trope.

 

The arc would be LESS sexist if Harris was unrepentant about Page’ death, because at least then her death would not be narratively pointless apart from serving to act as a trigger for a man’s emotional redemption.

 

Women should not have to die for men to deal with their shit.

 

And the end of Captain Marvel was indeed great .D

 

MCM

 

Harris' breakdown actually serves to illustrate how absolutely nuts he is. That said, I don't even concur that the Nav instructions should be 'fixed', I don't agree that it's motivated by sexism (although it could be tone deaf), nor should the arc be re-written apart from the absolute minimums (typographical fixes and legibility) to maintain the integrity of the story as it was presented. Further, Page doesn't exist purely as a motivator for Harris (although given that she appears only as a boss, she does purely exist to be killed), she's an obstacle for Arachnos as long as she's present, so she needs to get gone or get dead. She is an antagonist, and would be regardless of whether or not she was a man or woman. What's between their legs means absolutely nothing when the crosshair is between the eyes.