Is Regen poor or simply challenging (Psi/Regen build request)?

[Blackjoy]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:04 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Now do it without Shadow Meld and any +defense IO sets. 😲

This statement exposes that fallacy that many subscribe to.  ALL scrappers sets get more mitigation from their Set IO bonuses and Tough and Weave than the do from their Secondary.   There isn't a scrapper set that can cap +DEF or +RES without Pool Powers and Set bonuses.  Go run /Shield  or /SR without that extra +DEF/+RES and tell me how many 4x8 mobs you can solo.

[Blackjoy]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:36 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Willpower is the better option if you want a set that has +regen.

Having run /WP to 50, I'd say it's not.  /WP has some sweet spots in the solo progression,  but ultimately it lacks something very much needed:  +heal.   /WP can get unlucky and its +Regen  can get overwhelmed.  Without a a good +Heal power, when you're in that situation, there's no way to recover.  It's not surprising it was given a +Revive power like /Regen.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Blackjoy

[aethereal]

5 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

It was true then and it still true now.   The advantage that /Regen has is that it only has one toggle.  And that toggle serves as both its Mez protection and extra +Heal.  The other sets you mention run one or more toggles and/or have click Mez protection.  I've been running /Rad and it doesn't have near the efficiency of /Regen.  I've had to slot Gamma Boost with End Mod and I still run out of endurance in boss fights.    /Regen wastes the least amount endurance on mitigation.  

 

Okay, but your major endurance drains aren't toggles, they're attack powers.  I like Regen's one-toggle approach!

 

And Rad is certainly not the end-all, be-all of endurance tools.  Try Bio if you want a set that gets great endurance efficiency early and then gets a second tranche of endurance later.

 

5 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 

Now, if you're bankrolling your alts from level 1 and running with full time temp powers buffs, then you might do better than most.  But I'm assuming you're buying what you can afford from just playing from 1-20.

 

This is going to turn into one of these weird conversations where someone packs a ton of assumptions into their post about "the right way to play," isn't it?

 

For whatever it's worth:  I sometimes fund alts and sometimes don't.  I don't use "full time temp power buffs," unless we mean 2x XP.  It's easy to fund any character from what they can afford by "just playing," as long as you are willing to use your merits to buy enhancement converters and then convert enhancements and sell them (not just sell the converters).

 

And levels 1-20 go by very fast.  If you're soloing to 50 (which I almost exclusively do, doing regular missions), the majority of your time is spent 20-50, not 1-20.

 

5 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 

And again, by lvl 50, everyone seems to solve their endurance issues with Set IO.  For /Regen's to keep up, you have to find sets that give something else and I'm not sure there is an equivalency.   /Regen would have to get that much extra  +RES or +DEF instead of +Recovery and I'm not sure if it's out there.  

 

It's not by level 50, though.  With lots of sets, you'll get your endurance problems straightened out by level 25 or so.  And a problem with Regen is while yes, its endurance tool is available very low, so if you like turn off XP and spend a lot of time in levels 10-20, you may appreciate that, it doesn't have a very strong endurance tool, so you do in fact need lots of help after that, while sets like Electric or Energy struggle until the 30s, but then have limitless endurance forever.

[Captain Fabulous]

6 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

This statement exposes that fallacy that many subscribe to.  ALL scrappers sets get more mitigation from their Set IO bonuses and Tough and Weave than the do from their Secondary.   There isn't a scrapper set that can cap +DEF or +RES without Pool Powers and Set bonuses.  Go run /Shield  or /SR without that extra +DEF/+RES and tell me how many 4x8 mobs you can solo.

No, the fallacy is that just because you can stack pool powers and have a billion INF worth of set IOs and be godly doesn't mean the underlying set is actually good. You've just filled in all the holes. And Regen has a LOT of holes. The baseline for this game has always been even level SOs (a discussion for another time). So if you want to compare the efficacy of one protection set to another this is how you do it with comparable builds (if you're gonna have Tough/Weave + Shadow Meld on one then you must have it on another, or not have it at all). This allows you to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of each set. WP excels in comparison to Regen because it has layered protection; a bit of +regen, +resistance, and +defense. Also +maxhp and -tohit, all in auto powers or toggles. Regen is a one-trick pony -- +regen. Sure, you get a tiny amount of resistance and a long recharge +maxhp power and heal, and that's it. And even then, your 2 best powers, Instant Healing and MoG are long recharge clicks, with MoG lasting all of 15 seconds. No auto or toggle absorption, healing, +maxhp, or defense.

Shield is considered one of the best protection sets in the game. It's far superior to Regen for all the same reasons WP is superior, layered protection and debuffs. I will admit SR is also a one-trick pony, but it has a few nice touches that puts it above Regen. Firstly it has the best type of protection in the game, defense. It does get a small amount of resistance like Regen, but unlike Regen it scales up as your HPs go down. And it has a significant amount of resistance to defense debuffs. Regen gets a small amount of debuff resistance in Fast Healing, but it's not enough, especially considering how many critters can floor your regeneration in one hit. But honestly, I would put SR near the bottom just one step above Regen. It's not a great set either.

 

6 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Having run /WP to 50, I'd say it's not.  /WP has some sweet spots in the solo progression,  but ultimately it lacks something very much needed:  +heal.   /WP can get unlucky and its +Regen  can get overwhelmed.  Without a a good +Heal power, when you're in that situation, there's no way to recover.  It's not surprising it was given a +Revive power like /Regen.

But if you take Shadow Meld and add a ton of +defense IO sets you won't need a self heal in Willpower. And if WP is deficient enough to have a revive power then Regen must be just as bad since it has one too.

[Erratic1]

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

It's weird to act like Regen has some kind of great endurance management that's a big advantage.  That was once the case, but it hasn't been true for a long time.

 

7 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

I've had to slot Gamma Boost with End Mod and I still run out of endurance in boss fights.    /Regen wastes the least amount endurance on mitigation.  

 

Radiation Armor's endurance management tool is Theft of Essence proc in Radiation Therapy. 😛

[Blackjoy]

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Okay, but your major endurance drains aren't toggles, they're attack powers.  I like Regen's one-toggle approach!

Those toggles add up and are constant.  If you aren't bankrolling, the fights take longer when you aren't max slotted for Dam+Acc.    Those defensive toggles slow down recovery during fights and slow down how quickly I can move on to the next group, assuming my health is not an issue.   /Regen is adding an +Recovery power AND its only using one toggle.  It makes a big a different when you're not getting set bonuses and/or bankrolling.

 

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

This is going to turn into one of these weird conversations where someone packs a ton of assumptions into their post about "the right way to play," isn't it?

No one has said anything about what is the right way to play.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I'm pointing out that the circumstances determine your experience and posters aren't always comparing apples to apples.    Two /Regen's  can have completely different experiences with the same set if one is constantly teamed with a FF or Sonic defender and the other isn't.  So yes, people need to pay attention the the circumstances under which they play when talking about their experiences and readers need to normalize what they read.

 

 

Case in in point:

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

No, the fallacy is that just because you can stack pool powers and have a billion INF worth of set IOs and be godly doesn't mean the underlying set is actually good.

You're talking about what happens at lvl 50.   No average player is spending millions on their build at lvl 35.  Not everyone wants to spend hours of their game time working the Auction and trying to grind out money.  

 

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

So if you want to compare the efficacy of one protection set to another this is how you do it with comparable builds (if you're gonna have Tough/Weave + Shadow Meld on one then you must have it on another, or not have it at all).

If you want to have a baseline, then you play all the sets naked.  With no power pool mitigation.   Then you start adding in power pools and you can see that the benefit of power pools isn't balanced.   That's not the fault of the secondary, that's the fault of the underlying mitigation paradigm.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

WP excels in comparison to Regen because it has layered protection; a bit of +regen, +resistance, and +defense. Also +maxhp and -tohit, all in auto powers or toggles. Regen is a one-trick pony -- +regen. Sure, you get a tiny amount of resistance and a long recharge +maxhp power and heal, and that's it. And even then, your 2 best powers, Instant Healing and MoG are long recharge clicks, with MoG lasting all of 15 seconds. No auto or toggle absorption, healing, +maxhp, or defense.

I used to think that.   But layered protection doesn't make something "better" it makes it more robust.  Those aren't the same thing.   I've realized that the way to compare Scrappers is via the "I win" equation.    What is that?    

 

If (Time to defeat me) - (Time to defeat the enemies)  > 0  Then "I win"

 

To simplify,

TDM - TDE  >0

 

The best sets are the ones that have the greatest value above zero.  Secondaries work the TDM value, but I believe all of them try to improve the TDE (maybe Invul doesn't? or does it get +to Hit per mob?).   So while a set like WP might have many layers of protection, all that really matters is the I win equation.  It doesn't really matter what your form of mitigation is, it just matters what it does to the TDM number.  +Regen, +Heal, +Max Health,  are all 1 to 1 improvement in TDM (when not being debuffed).   -To Hit , +DEF, +RES, those are not even 100% effective when not being debuffed, so they don't contribute universally as does adding more hit points.   This is why /Regen can be a one-trick pony and still be effective.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Shield is considered one of the best protection sets in the game. It's far superior to Regen for all the same reasons WP is superior, layered protection and debuffs.

This is incorrect.  Shield is considered the best set because with enough money and Pool Powers, it can soft cap +DEF and I believe cap S/L +RES (and maybe other things).  It's not having the layers that matters, it's capping them.  Of course  it also contributes to TDE while providing the same amount of +DEF as /SR in fewer powers and tacking on Fear protection as well.   If I'm not mistaken, /Shield was a pay-to-win set on Live.   So yeah, it was better because you had to pay for it.

 

The hard truth about Secondaries is that the easier you can reach +DEF cap, the better people perceive the set to be at 50+.   Soft capping +DEF gives you 95% mitigation to anything that is typed and not auto-hit.  There is no other form of mitigation that tops this for scrappers.   And going from 90% +DEF to 95% +DEF effectively doubles your TDM number.   This is why /Regen gets trashed on the forums.  It's really expensive and difficult to soft cap /Regen.   It's extremely easy and cheap to soft cap /SR or /Shield comparatively.   But none of the +DEF sets can soft cap without Power Pools + Set IOs.  And if you try and take /SR or /Shield into 4x8 without PP or Set IO bonuses or Incarnates, you're going to face plant just like /Regen.

 

+RES for scrappers is only at 75%, so it's not as effective at cap. If you combine it with a heal or high levels of +Regen,  and don't give it big holes like Psi and Toxic, then it can nearly be as survivable.  But like /Regen, you're vulnerable to debuffs, so even a set like Invul relies upon a lot +DEF at higher levels.

 

 

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It's far superior to Regen for all the same reasons WP is superior

 

When I first started playing /WP, I thought this as well.  I was like, WP is what Regen was meant to be.  But after going back and playing /Regen, I realized that if I was willing to do the work,  /Regen was more effective naked.   By the mid-30's, my SM/Regen could reliably take on +3s without Tough or Weave.   This is with nothing but IOs and one set of Overwhelming Fear in Shred.    I can defeat a spawn with nothing but Reconstruction.   The only thing that keeps me from killing +4's is accuracy.  Since I'm not running Focused Accuracy and don't have a true Build-Up, +4 just take too much time to kill.

 

Now, +2  Nosferatu (as an EB) was unkillable solo.  He would consistently floor my Accuracy with Dark Melee and heal himself with Siphon Life.  Once DP and IH expired, I could  not survive.   So /Regen can't do it all naked.   But I had similar problems with /SR when you couldn't get +DEF for AOE until 35.  So every set tends to have something.  

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Captain Fabulous]

37 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

<snip>

Now you're just arguing for argument's sake and using circular logic to try and prove that Regen doesn't suck, despite every possible benchmark standard and test methodology available to us saying it does. Believe whatever you want.

[Blackjoy]

38 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Now you're just arguing for argument's sake and using circular logic to try and prove that Regen doesn't suck, despite every possible benchmark standard and test methodology available to us saying it does. Believe whatever you want.

No, you're just flat wrong. There were several benchmarks done that showed /Regen outpeforms other sets.  You're just ignorant of them.  Either you are just really bad at playing /Regen, or  you've never actually played it such that you can accurately compare it to other sets.   Eeryhing you've posted is recycled rhetoric from other posters.   I went out and actually played /Regen and compared it other sets.  I never cared for it on Live, but someone made the same claims you are making now and I went and played the set and realized how much misinformation is out there.  That, and the fact that they metric people wanted to consider is the 50+ game with mega million Influence builds.   Either way, believe what you want.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Greldek]

I'd say is /regen a poor set depends on what you want to do with the character. Well over 90% of the content in this game is piss easy, that can be solo'd with terrible power picks, no slotting, and half drunk.  /Regen is just as fine for that content as any other set.

 

There's also the masochist content, where people take a shit set, and see just how far they can push it, by pouring a billion INF into it. And in that case, /regen is one of the best sets, because it's got more weaknesses than most other sets, and so it can actually be a fun challenge to push a strong build out of.

 

I don't personally have experience with a top end t4 billion+ inf /regen build, but my instinct says it's less than ideal for that 4*, hard content. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.

But /regen is fine for general play, and even for a solo run, I've ran a few of them, brute, sent, scrapper I think. They do ok. I even end up tanking some random TF's on my /regen brute from time to time, and he does okay. You just need to learn to play in it's limits.

Alot of melee like to just jump into the pack soak the alpha and lay waste, that is not regens strong suit, and that's a good way to use your rez power a lot. While solo you're going to be doing a lot of corner pulling to negate some of that initial alpha damage, so it comes in smaller waves instead of all at once. But groups won't wait arond for that, so my strategy for that is just hope some of your group members also have rez, and be ready eat some dirt from time to time.

 

I actually have more fun successfully tanking TF's on my /regen brute and basic build fire/ tank than on my indestructable shield and rad and what nots. Another reason why i love elec armor, the most bummer thing to me in game is endurance sapping, I'd rather take dmg to my green bar than to my blue bar anyday.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:04 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Now do it without Shadow Meld and any +defense IO sets. 😲

 

Um, okay? Done?

 

Yes as I mentioned I have Shadow Meld, but that's for book-ending around MoG and Alpha absorption as needed, it's not a constant-use power. You also miss presume that the build has some exorbitant amount of defense bonuses when it does not, I stopped it at 32.5% which comes fairly easily. There is a considerable amount of the pre-Incarnate content in the game that can be played without heavy supportive effort so long as the player is utilizing the sets at their disposal wisely. Titan Weapons is a very soft-control heavy set with knock effects making it possible to get into combat and keep spawns mitigated before they can be a threat. I have the ability to let a lot of passive regen work in my benefit.

 

If I wanted to skip Shadow Meld I very easily could have in replacement of Defensive Sweep (which would even garner me the ability to stack it), but I don't like the animation or how it messes with my flow, so I don't. The point stands though that there are always tools available and ways to make the sets perform in powerful ways that don't necessarily require playing to unique categorical strengths like cherry picking Shadow Meld or IO bonuses.

[aethereal]

6 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Those toggles add up and are constant.  If you aren't bankrolling, the fights take longer when you aren't max slotted for Dam+Acc.    Those defensive toggles slow down recovery during fights and slow down how quickly I can move on to the next group, assuming my health is not an issue.   /Regen is adding an +Recovery power AND its only using one toggle.  It makes a big a different when you're not getting set bonuses and/or bankrolling.

 

I actually played an Energy Melee/Regen brute, just recently.  I was resting all the time with it.  Mostly due to health concerns, not endurance, but endurance wasn't great either until I, you know, got a couple of Performance Shifter procs and so forth -- all the things that you claim Regen is good at.

 

Regen is not as awful as you might think given the forum memes -- I mean, it's an easy enough game, it's not like there isn't plenty of slack to play somewhat suboptimal sets.  I enjoyed my /regen brute.  But Regen had a mildly worse 1-30 experience and a much worse 30+ experience than any other armor set I've played.

Edited February 21, 2023 by aethereal

[Erratic1]

59 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Regen is not as awful as you might think given the forum memes....

 

Ohhh, is that permission to pull one out?

[aethereal]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

Ohhh, is that permission to pull one out?

Go wild man.

[Erratic1]

Just now, aethereal said:

Go wild man.

 

[Blackjoy]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

I actually played an Energy Melee/Regen brute, just recently.  I was resting all the time with it.  Mostly due to health concerns, not endurance, but endurance wasn't great either until I, you know, got a couple of Performance Shifter procs and so forth -- all the things that you claim Regen is good at.

 

Regen is not as awful as you might think given the forum memes -- I mean, it's an easy enough game, it's not like there isn't plenty of slack to play somewhat suboptimal sets.  I enjoyed my /regen brute.  But Regen had a mildly worse 1-30 experience and a much worse 30+ experience than any other armor set I've played.

I'm not making any claims about /Regen on a Brute.  And Brute's and scrappers play differently.  I played a Street/Shield Brute and Shield was terrible 1-35.  I was constantly low on health and low on endurance.   Having to take a knee frequently.  I don't think I've every had to take a knee on my SM/Regen scrapper and that's pushing +3.  Actually, I probably have after Sappers, but I'm not 100% sure.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Erratic1]

21 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

I played a Street/Shield Brute and Shield was terrible 1-35.  I was constantly low on health and low on endurance.

 

The only difference defensively between a brute and a scrapper before IO sets get factored is the brute has higher hit points. Otherwise, the powers give the same amount of defense and resistance. Endurance recovery works identically. If you were resting all the time on a brute then you would have been resting all the time on a scrapper. Probably moreso on the scrapper because the brute, having gotten fury up, should be doing more damage going from spawn to spawn.

[Yomo Kimyata]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The only difference defensively between a brute and a scrapper before IO sets get factored is the brute has higher hit points. Otherwise, the powers give the same amount of defense and resistance.

 

You are missing some AT distinctions, like ATOs and, um, this beauty of an epic power:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.brute_soul_mastery.darkest_night&at=brute

[aethereal]

20 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

You are missing some AT distinctions, like ATOs and, um, this beauty of an epic power:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.brute_soul_mastery.darkest_night&at=brute

This subthread is about the low level experience, and @Erratic1 specified "defensively."

[Erratic1]

25 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

You are missing some AT distinctions, like ATOs and, um, this beauty of an epic power:

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.brute_soul_mastery.darkest_night&at=brute

 

I said before IOs got factored in and you're not going to have Darkest Night at any point between levels 1 and 35.

 

Edit: The thing I do not like about the power is that because it radiates from what you drop it on, things at range are not affected. Great solo though, especially when using corners to herd. But in a group your anchor is at risk of being killed (though in a group you probably don't care). Build a Rad Tanker who used it to wonderful effect.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Erratic1

[Blackjoy]

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 If you were resting all the time on a brute then you would have been resting all the time on a scrapper. Probably moreso on the scrapper because the brute, having gotten fury up, should be doing more damage going from spawn to spawn.

No, that's not true.

 

Let's look again what Aetheral said...

 

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

I was resting all the time with it.  Mostly due to health concerns, not endurance, but endurance wasn't great either until I, you know, got a couple of Performance Shifter procs and so forth -- all the things that you claim Regen is good at.

A Scrapper does better much better upfront damage compared to a Brute.   And when a Brute is resting "mostly due to health concerns" their Fury isn't up.  That means a Brute is going to burn more endurance than a Scrapper in defeating mobs.  So no, there is a substantive difference playing Brute vs Scrapper when you're having to rest for Health and can't run the whole mission with max'd Fury, and that's exactly what I had to do playing /Shield.   So no, the endurance experience will not be the same.

 

Again, I'm playing these sets with IO's and no Tough/Weave so I can see what the set can do, not what my build can do.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

No, that's not true.

 

Let's look again what Aetheral said...

 

A Scrapper does better much better upfront damage compared to a Brute.   And when a Brute is resting "mostly due to health concerns" their Fury isn't up.  That means a Brute is going to burn more endurance than a Scrapper in defeating mobs.  So no, there is a substantive difference playing Brute vs Scrapper when you're having to rest for Health, and that's exactly what I had to do playing /Shield.   Again, I'm playing these sets with IO's and no Tough/Weave so I can see what the set can do, not what my build can do.

 

That was aetheral addressing a Regen build. You cut off this first sentence in the paragraph:

 

Quote

I actually played an Energy Melee/Regen brute, just recently.  I was resting all the time with it.

 

 

My response to you was about what you were addressing, Street Justice/Shield on a  Brute--"I played a Street/Shield Brute and Shield was terrible 1-35.  I was constantly low on health and low on endurance."

 

So, what is not true?

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Erratic1

[Blackjoy]

That I would be resting more as a scrapper due to Endurance or Health.  The faster I can kill mobs, the less damage I take and the less  endurance I use up.  Be the 40's, Brutes can get enough defense to not rest.  But if you're fighting +2/+3s, you're taking damage and having to rest, and that lowers your Fury and makes you less effective on the next spawn.

 

The sets do not play the same below 50+.  As you approach 50, it becomes more about your build than the set.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Blackjoy said:

That I would be resting more as a scrapper due to Endurance or Health.  The faster I can kill mobs, the less damage I take and the less endurance I use up.  Be the 40's, Brutes can get enough defense to not rest.  But if you're fighting +2/+3s, you're taking damage and having to rest, and that lowers your Fury and makes you less effective on the next spawn.

 

The sets do not play the same below 50+.  As you approach 50, it becomes more about your build than the set.

 

A low level Brute will do more damage than a Scrapper and hence rest less because they get 2% more damage per point of Fury and build to a roughly functional cap of 85 fury, for a total of 170% more damage. 

 

Energy Punch for a Scrapper deals 79.83 base, and 48.38 base for a Brute. Stick in damage enhancements to get to +95% damage and the Scrapper is at 79.83*1.95=155.67 damage. Likewise the Brute can slot the same but also is going to get another 170% to his damage via Fury for a total of 265%. That puts him at 48.38*3.65=176.57. Factor in crits and the scrapper get 10% more to be at 171.237. That is still behind the Brute.

 

The Brute is not going to be able to stay at 85 Fury indefinitely but he has equivalent defenses and more hp, meaning he by default can spend more time being beaten on than the Scrapper. So long as you are not killing 3 things then resting, rinse repeat but rather progressing until it becomes unhealthy to continue on, the Brute will kill more. Perhaps not a lot, but more.

 

So again, if you were resting all the time with the Brute, you would be resting all the time and then some with the Scrapper.

 

And all the blather about approaching 50 is aside as we are discussing your comment about 1-35 play.

[aethereal]

39 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

A Scrapper does better much better upfront damage compared to a Brute.

 

Not at low levels it doesn't!  People really underestimate how garbage Scrappers are at low levels.  10% crit rate (5% against minions, and you're fighting lots of minions here) is terrible, and there are going to be substantial fights in which you just never crit.  It takes a matter of five to ten seconds to get your Fury up high enough to match low-level Scrapper damage.

 

39 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

Again, I'm playing these sets with IO's and no Tough/Weave so I can see what the set can do, not what my build can do.

 

This is dumb.  There is no "what the set can do" in isolation from the rest of the game.  I mean, we can say, "I want to see what a set can do (exclusively as it relates to doing negative energy daamage)," and, I mean, cool, you'll find that Dark sets are the best at everything -- as long as by "everything" you mean "this highly arbitrary benchmark that's unrelated to the actual game."

 

Not that Tough and Weave are hugely game changing at these levels, but I wish we could just excise this whole type of discourse of these fora which is like, "I have fifteen invisible rules in my head and as long as you play with these totally arbitrary limitations, all of my weird claims are true."

 

I'm sure that Blackjoy can find some set of restrictions which makes his experience valid.  They are his experience, after all.  But what I'm saying is if you are playing with these restrictions and you find that under those restrictions Shield is inferior to Regen, the solution is not "roll Regen," it's "relax whichever of those restrictions is leading to your character being so bad."

 

(Or do roll regen!  I did, it was fun, good experience.  But don't kid yourself about what you're doing there.)

 

In general, we now see some huffing and puffing about well, how dare you, my arbitrary restrictions are extremely important, they're only natural.  But they aren't.  You can make Shield (or Rad, or Bio, or Invul, or EA, or whatever) better than Regen without using the amplifiers, without having a dedicated AFK farmer and a billion inf, without PLing up to 50 and then going back and doing all your content through Ouro, without anything particularly onerous.  If you choose not to do that, then hey, cool, you do you.  But you could have.

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Not that Tough and Weave are hugely game changing at these levels, but I wish we could just excise this whole type of discourse of these fora which is like, "I have fifteen invisible rules in my head and as long as you play with these totally arbitrary limitations, all of my weird claims are true."

 

Yeah, at low level Tough and Weave are endurance sinks and likely so poorly slotted that unless you are literally being beaten to death regularly, probably you should delay taking until later.