TW/Bio, how f* am I?

[Sarah_]

Hello all!

long time returnee. My “main” character used to be a tw/bio scrapper and I’ve heard it was nerfed to the bones. 
I really love the /bio versatility but TW’s mechanics was always kind of annoying and rather horrible when having to play at lower level. Still I would still like to not reroll! So just a couple of questions:

- How bad is TW now compared to other sets? (Source? What’s the best?)

- Are there any very important changes from the last years I’ve missed? 
(Fulcrum shift nerf? :)))
thank you!

Edited May 3, 2023 by Sarah_

[SomeGuy]

TW is fine. Really good, not stupidly OP like it was anymore. I think leveling with it is easier now.

 

"Best" is subjective. Need more of a clarified question for that one. But in terms overall DPS? It's in melee DPS top-tier still.

Edited May 3, 2023 by SomeGuy

[SeraphimKensai]

TW/Bio was so over performing that when it was merged it left it still an extremely viable powerset. Previously it was so over the top that you had to disregard performance to roll any other melee set for a scrapper.

 

You'll find it still does well.

Bio still works great as always as well.

 

Yes there have been a number of changes, I'd suggest looking at the development sub forums and reading the patch notes for pages 1-6. Otherwise welcome back and have fun.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:03 AM, Sarah_ said:

Hello all!

long time returnee. My “main” character used to be a tw/bio scrapper and I’ve heard it was nerfed to the bones. 
I really love the /bio versatility but TW’s mechanics was always kind of annoying and rather horrible when having to play at lower level. Still I would still like to not reroll! So just a couple of questions:

- How bad is TW now compared to other sets? (Source? What’s the best?)

- Are there any very important changes from the last years I’ve missed? 
(Fulcrum shift nerf? :)))
thank you!

 

Your "main" was extremely overpowered at the time.  If you chose your main because of that, well, you might want to choose another main.  Currently Axe Melee is pretty overpowered, if that helps.

[SomeGuy]

57 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Your "main" was extremely overpowered at the time.  If you chose your main because of that, well, you might want to choose another main.  Currently Axe Melee is pretty overpowered, if that helps.

 

 

None of the melee sets are overpowered. Battle Axe got a really great makeover but it is definitely not overpowered.

[Nemu]

Pretty F* if your name is F* McF*son

[nihilii]

In practice, I think the TW nerf was almost a buff for most players. Easier Momentum, less end consumption in Momentum. The further you are on the highend optimized build + twitchy player behind keyboard, the more likely this was a nerf; but for the average person it's hard to overstate how significant the quality of life from this revamp is. No more awkward misses messing up your flow.

 

As someone who can't handle patterns or rhythm games, old TW used to literally break my brain and leave me standing for a couple seconds too often for my liking. Whereas nowadays it's almost as easy to play as any other set.

 

As for /bio, /bio is still ridiculously overpowered.

Therefore I'd give TW/bio the highest F-star grade: it's Fine

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

In practice, I think the TW nerf was almost a buff for most players. Easier Momentum, less end consumption in Momentum. The further you are on the highend optimized build + twitchy player behind keyboard, the more likely this was a nerf; but for the average person it's hard to overstate how significant the quality of life from this revamp is. No more awkward misses messing up your flow.

 

As someone who can't handle patterns or rhythm games, old TW used to literally break my brain and leave me standing for a couple seconds too often for my liking. Whereas nowadays it's almost as easy to play as any other set.

 

As for /bio, /bio is still ridiculously overpowered.

Therefore I'd give TW/bio the highest F-star grade: it's Fine

 

 

I'm one of those that does those sorts of performance builds and I will always say pre-nerf TW was way to much. It didn't even make you want to play other melee sets cause of how absurd it was. Honestly, because of how nuts it was motivated me start doing straight x/bio comparisons with all the melee sets.

 

Honestly, I don't even really think it was a nerf. It was a balancing. I will readily admit I thought it was to much at first, but @Ratch_ figured out how to optimize the chain.

 

Bio isn't overpowered. It's a glass cannon. It's the best at what it does best, but it's still squishy as hell when played to it's strengths.

Edited May 8, 2023 by SomeGuy

[Beldath]

TW/Bio/Soul has a recorded DPS of 668 with Hybrid off which puts it at the top end of ST damage, it is also not a slouch in AoE either. However, I must warn that it is not an easy set to play, as most of it is timing-based and making use of your momentum window while extending it using your build-up. This window can be very tight and might take some practice to get used to. Furthermore, Bio has a strong taunt aura for a scrapper so things are less likely to run as well. While this is rewarding for players who are technical mechanics of the game, know how to build, and use proper rotations. If you just slap together a build and use attacks on CD you will come away with something rather disappointing. 

[Zect]

Nobody is actually providing the one resource relevant to the OP.

 

Here you go:

 

 

The key takeaway is that unlike optimization for most powersets, it is not the order of powers that is used in each momentum window that matters but rather the number, as long as you begin and end each window with the same power. Depending on which power you lead with, you don't even need to have a gapless attack chain to get the correct number of attacks in each window. For these reasons TW is an easy set to play and momentum windows are very forgiving.

[SomeGuy]

21 hours ago, Zect said:

For these reasons TW is an easy set to play and momentum windows are very forgiving.

 

Wow. You literally wrote that.

 

For anyone else reading, TW is *NOT* an easy set to get the most out of. Not at all. The only set which is a bigger PITA to figure out how to best get performance out of is Kinetic Melee.

 

***I wrote this thinking it was referencing end-game builds.***

Edited May 10, 2023 by SomeGuy

[Zect]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

TW is *NOT* an easy set to get the most out of.

 

The OP is a returning player concerned about the performance of their powersets relative to the meta due to fearmongering about how serious the TW nerfs were. The correct answer to that is that TW is extremely strong, one of the best. And that, especially for someone whose last experience of the set was pre-nerf TW, it got a lot more straightforward and forgiving to play.The great thing is, you don't need to take my word for it. You can just go to the guide by Ratch that I linked, copy the builds and attack chains wholesale, and see for yourself that it is not so hard to execute.

 

I think the real reason you react so emotively is that you've invested so much time and effort attempting to push the dps frontier, it touches a nerve when someone describes the set as easy.

 

For anyone else reading, do *NOT* be discouraged by people who live inside the trapdoor instance; TW is no harder to play than any other set.

[Sarah_]

10 hours ago, Zect said:

Nobody is actually providing the one resource relevant to the OP.

 

Here you go:

 

 

The key takeaway is that unlike optimization for most powersets, it is not the order of powers that is used in each momentum window that matters but rather the number, as long as you begin and end each window with the same power. Depending on which power you lead with, you don't even need to have a gapless attack chain to get the correct number of attacks in each window. For these reasons TW is an easy set to play and momentum windows are very forgiving.

tyvm ❤️ maths

[SomeGuy]

12 hours ago, Zect said:

 

The OP is a returning player concerned about the performance of their powersets relative to the meta due to fearmongering about how serious the TW nerfs were. The correct answer to that is that TW is extremely strong, one of the best. And that, especially for someone whose last experience of the set was pre-nerf TW, it got a lot more straightforward and forgiving to play.The great thing is, you don't need to take my word for it. You can just go to the guide by Ratch that I linked, copy the builds and attack chains wholesale, and see for yourself that it is not so hard to execute.

 

I think the real reason you react so emotively is that you've invested so much time and effort attempting to push the dps frontier, it touches a nerve when someone describes the set as easy.

 

For anyone else reading, do *NOT* be discouraged by people who live inside the trapdoor instance; TW is no harder to play than any other set.

 

 

Not gonna lie, I read your post with the context that it applied to end-game builds. In the context of leveling up? It's spot on. In my defense, the graph you shared threw my pea brain that direction. Yeah...that's my excuse. 😄

 

But leveling up? The Momentum mechanic is really straight forward. @Zect is right. Don't be discouraged by it. If anything, it adds a layer to things if you want them to. 

[Dixa]

for those that play it today: is this still as easy as it was when i tested this 5 years ago? it's also been a long time since i played, nearly 5 years and it's not like there is a tl:dr of all changes available.

 

Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper vs. +3 Black Swan - Twitch

[SomeGuy]

Nothing is going to be as easy as it was on pre-changes TW. IMO, that's a good thing. But if it helps. the current version of TW/BIO could definitely do that with no issues.