odd "power ranking" AT question

[Snarky]

We all know that for same/similar power sets the lineup is roughly (best to worst for DPS only) Stalker, Scrapper, Brute, Tank.  Some of the differences are (in my opinion) not huge.  Where exactly would a Sentinel fit in there.  Survivability is off the table.  This is just a DPS race.  Same power sets, or the Sentinel equivalent to the melee.  Energy Melee to Energy Blast, Ice Melee to Ice Blast etc.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Snarky

[Spaghetti Betty]

My gut reaction is to put them either right below Tanker or side by side with them. For me it would look something like this:

 

Stalker

Scrapper

Brute

Tanker, Sentinel

 

No real research put into it, just general gameplay experience. It's also with a huge grain of salt because the only reason Scrapper pulls ahead of Brute is ATOs. That's the main reason why Stalker sits at the top of the pile. Tankers and Sentinels share the same problem where their damage isn't spectacular (outside of a few outliers) until you consider procs.

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

My gut reaction is to put them either right below Tanker or side by side with them. For me it would look something like this:

 

Stalker

Scrapper

Brute

Tanker, Sentinel

 

No real research put into it, just general gameplay experience. It's also with a huge grain of salt because the only reason Scrapper pulls ahead of Brute is ATOs. That's the main reason why Stalker sits at the top of the pile. Tankers and Sentinels share the same problem where their damage isn't spectacular (outside of a few outliers) until you consider procs.

Well, in edge cases Brutes were outdamaging some Scrappers on live.  So they were nerfed into stupid zone.  After that Scrappers always performed at least slightly and generally moderately better than Brutes.  Before ATOs.  Which, Brute ATOs are just an insult.  Salt in the wound of the Fury nerf.

[Zect]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

We all know that for same/similar power sets the lineup is roughly (best to worst for DPS only) Stalker, Scrapper, Brute, Tank.

 

This is only true for ST damage vs a hard target, e.g. an AV or pylon. For mixed groups such as the trapdoor test (bunch of normal mobs, then an AV at the end) all 4 AT's have approximately the same killtimes, but tankers are significantly safer and easier.

 

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Where exactly would a Sentinel fit in there.

 

Sentinels are below all 4 melee AT's and significantly below tanks. However, it isn't that sents are weak; it's more that tanks are offensively too strong. Tanks have:

1. Access to superior offensive powersets such as SS, Savage, TW
2. Universal, strong taunt aura
   • This is critical for soloing at high difficulties where no toon can wipe an entire spawn within a few powers. Being able to keep everything tightly grouped and stationary for aoes and damage patches is invaluable.
3. Higher target caps and larger aoes

Combined with their high damage scalar of 0.95 (compare corruptors: only 0.75), these advantages have synergistic, multiplicative effects that catapult their offensive power above the actual dps AT's. Tanks are the #1 solo AT, and also the #1 AFK farmer (for active farming where you're converting and gobbling insps, brutes are still better because they have tanker resist caps but higher offense caps). The tanker damage scale needs to be no higher than 0.85, approximately a -10.5% damage nerf.

 

 

 

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

We all know that for same/similar power sets the lineup is roughly (best to worst for DPS only) Stalker, Scrapper, Brute, Tank.  Some of the differences are (in my opinion) not huge.  Where exactly would a Sentinel fit in there.  Survivability is off the table.  This is just a DPS race.  Same power sets, or the Sentinel equivalent to the melee.  Energy Melee to Energy Blast, Ice Melee to Ice Blast etc.

 

tankers out damage brutes on the testing i’ve linked in a few threads

 

bigboy tank best melee AT 

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

tankers out damage brutes on the testing i’ve linked in a few threads

 

bigboy tank best melee AT 

Yeah.  I have switched to Tanks on my Dark Dark heavy.   Much better build and arguably better damage

[Uun]

Ignoring AoE, sentinels have a 1.10 damage scale while tanks have a 0.95 scale. Against a single target, a sentinel is going to out damage a tank, especially when you factor in Vunerability.

[ZemX]

49 minutes ago, Uun said:

Ignoring AoE, sentinels have a 1.10 damage scale while tanks have a 0.95 scale. Against a single target, a sentinel is going to out damage a tank, especially when you factor in Vunerability.

 

Ah, but you see... these are the forums and on the forums nobody fights a single enemy!  Everybody is soloing +4x8 proc-monkey Incarnate builds and we must balance around this!

 

I do get a kick out of it.  I can come to the forums and read how nobody should be playing anything but tankers and then I can go actually play the game and hear teammates tell me, "Oh wow, a tanker!  I hardly ever see you guys on teams!  Doesn't seem to be much point anymore!"

[Snarky]

39 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Ah, but you see... these are the forums and on the forums nobody fights a single enemy!  Everybody is soloing +4x8 proc-monkey Incarnate builds and we must balance around this!

 

I do get a kick out of it.  I can come to the forums and read how nobody should be playing anything but tankers and then I can go actually play the game and hear teammates tell me, "Oh wow, a tanker!  I hardly ever see you guys on teams!  Doesn't seem to be much point anymore!"

I run my Tank as I badge.  Sometimes a week at a time.  Sometimes there are two-three Tanks/Brutes.  Funnily enough when i am on my Blaster I seem to see a lot less Heavies.  Perception i am sure.  But i tend to still tank on my Blaster.  There are faceplants

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I run my Tank as I badge.  Sometimes a week at a time.  Sometimes there are two-three Tanks/Brutes.  Funnily enough when i am on my Blaster I seem to see a lot less Heavies.  Perception i am sure.  But i tend to still tank on my Blaster.  There are faceplants

 

Yeah, I would never claim to be immune to perception bias.  I am mostly playing Tankers these days so I am hyper-aware of other tankers mostly.  I am most often the only tanker on the team.  Sometimes there's a second.  Rarely more than that.  It's far more common for there to be two or more blasters or two/three controllers.   I probably don't take as much notice of Scrappers and Brutes unless one of them runs off ahead of the team to die gloriously.

[Neiska]

16 hours ago, Snarky said:

Well, in edge cases Brutes were outdamaging some Scrappers on live.  So they were nerfed into stupid zone.  After that Scrappers always performed at least slightly and generally moderately better than Brutes.  Before ATOs.  Which, Brute ATOs are just an insult.  Salt in the wound of the Fury nerf.

I still have lots of fun on my Savage/Bio brute, the fury interacts wonderfully with Savage mechanics, and /Bio is just the icing on the cake. Sure they aren't huge hits, but a flurry of little ones and bleeds/dots which fury does affect. So IMO it really depends on what powersets are being used, but that's just me. Some Brutes are still fantastic.