Am I just totally misinformed....

[tjknight]

Back in 2019, I created a Warshade using the old MF**NG Warshade guide. At that time, many people were playing, and leveling was quite easy. After reaching level 50 with the Warshade, I started playing other Archetypes, particularly my Fortunata and Corruptor. However, a few weeks ago, I logged into my Warshade and began playing it again.

 

Despite not having the best IO slotting, I must say my Warshade feels incredibly powerful when teamed. He even performs well when exemped down to lower levels. One noticeably useful aspect is the expanded Teleport Pool and the ability to teleport directly to a target using a macro. I typically teleport to target, hit "Shadow Slip", then shift shape to apply a double-mire, and a final shift to Nova for a third damaging AOE. 

 

When I come across posts claiming that Kheldians fall behind other Archetypes, I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps when playing solo, there might be some shortcomings, but when in a team, my Warshade feels unstoppable. I'm curious to know what others think. Kheldians deal decent damage, are highly durable, and extremely mobile.

 

Any thoughts or opinions on this? What am I missing that leads others to consider Kheldians sub-par?

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by tjknight

[kanga]

Warshades do much better than Peacebringers do.

[Bionic_Flea]

19 hours ago, tjknight said:

Back in 2019, I created a Warshade using the old MF**NG Warshade guide.

I remember that guide!  I thought it was great and tried to follow it, but it never gelled for me.  I felt more comfortable playing other ATs .

 

That was a long time ago, probably a decade or more.  The game has changed a lot since then and I know a lot more about the mechanics.  Maybe I should give WS another try.

 

But I'd love for the OG MF**NG Warshade author to recreate that guide with all the new IOs and QOL changes.

[inqueblawt]

19 hours ago, kanga said:

Warshades do much better than Peacebringers do.

 

Been using the Peacebomber guide, and other than needing a very very specific set of macros to perform, it is as straight forward as it gets. Very expensive builds though. 

 

I'm also curious if there are newer Warshade guides, reliance on bodies was never my favorite, as the Peacebringer's crash was much easier to handle. 

[Laucianna]

On 5/21/2023 at 7:05 PM, kanga said:

Warshades do much better than Peacebringers do.

Both PeaceBringers and WarShades have their pros and cons compared to one another 🙂

 

- Lauci x

[StriderIV]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:22 AM, Goddess Laucianna said:

Both PeaceBringers and WarShades have their pros and cons compared to one another 🙂

 

- Lauci x

For an All Human build, would you recommend a WS or a PB?

[Dungeoness Eloora]

I'm not GL, but I'm pretty sure we have similar grasps of the respective advantages of each flavor of Kheldian.

 

A human only PB is a bit easier to play, due to being very sturdy and self sustaining without the need for bodies. At higher levels, they are able to keep their max HP perma-boosted with one of 2 self heals, buff their to-hit and damage a respectable amount, cap all resists but psionic, throw out a ton of AoE that includes KD and lots of places to shove Achilles -res and damage procs, and look quite majestic doing it with your flight.

 

A human only WS has the ability to boost their damage much higher, occasionally to cap, buff resists including psionics to cap quite often if you have 3+ targets to Eclipse, do decent pbaoe damage with a toggle while having fewer aoe options via skills, solid ST damage if you can keep your pet summons alive, and some interesting tactical options to use via self and mob-based teleports. Your damage buff, res buff and self heals all require either living, or sometimse dead bodies to use.

 

Neither build will be the optimal way to play either AT, but it's your dime.

[StriderIV]

2 hours ago, Dungeoness Eloora said:

I'm not GL, but I'm pretty sure we have similar grasps of the respective advantages of each flavor of Kheldian.

 

A human only PB is a bit easier to play, due to being very sturdy and self sustaining without the need for bodies. At higher levels, they are able to keep their max HP perma-boosted with one of 2 self heals, buff their to-hit and damage a respectable amount, cap all resists but psionic, throw out a ton of AoE that includes KD and lots of places to shove Achilles -res and damage procs, and look quite majestic doing it with your flight.

 

A human only WS has the ability to boost their damage much higher, occasionally to cap, buff resists including psionics to cap quite often if you have 3+ targets to Eclipse, do decent pbaoe damage with a toggle while having fewer aoe options via skills, solid ST damage if you can keep your pet summons alive, and some interesting tactical options to use via self and mob-based teleports. Your damage buff, res buff and self heals all require either living, or sometimse dead bodies to use.

 

Neither build will be the optimal way to play either AT, but it's your dime.

Thanks for this, very helpful. Quick follow ups:

 

- I see PB’s get mez protection from LF and WS’s do not. Is this a big deal, or can you work around it with slotting?

 

- PB’s LF has a crash, is it easy to work around? I know WS’s T9 don’t have a crash, but might not be as strong?

[MonteCarla]

I've played a Human-only PB.

The crash from Light Form isn't too bad. It'll drop your health to half-way, and you can instantly heal that using either of your self-heals every time it happens. In between crashes, let's just say that you very rarely need those self-heals, since you're rocking 85% resistance to everything except psionics. (This was on a perma-Light Form build)

[SeraphimKensai]

I've played Kheldians for a long time. I've done triform, biform, human only on both PB and WS. Personally I think triform is the better way to play them so my answer likely has some bias.

 

Human form only:

 

PB

• Basically a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. You get some ranged, melee, and AoE. You get a heal other if you choose, dull pain clone and can fly.
• Light form gives you a mediocre amount of mez protection but no psionic resistance . It crashes taking half your HP and you can make it Perma but not avoid the crash.
• It's similar to a Sentinel albeit with some melee thrown in the mix.
• Doesn't require density

WS

• Built-in stealth, teleportation powers allows you to control which encounters you engage in.
• Damage Aura+ Soul Drain clone
• Sustain in stygian circle - probably the best sustain in the game.
• 2-3x pets, unchained essence AoE from dead bodies, inky Aspect stunning trash
• Eclipse crashless res the all and gives you endurance at its start
• Requires mob density 

Negative damage is typically less resisted than energy damage. The mez holes can be plugged with clarion 

 

I personally find if limited to human only a Warshade built with Perma eclipse recharge and slow res performs better in most content. It suffers though when trying to solo giant monsters or some AVs once the surrounding mob density is depleted.

 

That said if you're limiting yourself to human only because of concept that's one thing,but if it's because of playability complexity due to shape shifting and power trays....well that can easily enough be resolved with keybinds.

 

[Laucianna]

9 hours ago, Dungeoness Eloora said:

I'm not GL, but I'm pretty sure we have similar grasps of the respective advantages of each flavor of Kheldian.

 

A human only PB is a bit easier to play, due to being very sturdy and self sustaining without the need for bodies. At higher levels, they are able to keep their max HP perma-boosted with one of 2 self heals, buff their to-hit and damage a respectable amount, cap all resists but psionic, throw out a ton of AoE that includes KD and lots of places to shove Achilles -res and damage procs, and look quite majestic doing it with your flight.

 

A human only WS has the ability to boost their damage much higher, occasionally to cap, buff resists including psionics to cap quite often if you have 3+ targets to Eclipse, do decent pbaoe damage with a toggle while having fewer aoe options via skills, solid ST damage if you can keep your pet summons alive, and some interesting tactical options to use via self and mob-based teleports. Your damage buff, res buff and self heals all require either living, or sometimse dead bodies to use.

 

Neither build will be the optimal way to play either AT, but it's your dime.

 

13 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I've played Kheldians for a long time. I've done triform, biform, human only on both PB and WS. Personally I think triform is the better way to play them so my answer likely has some bias.

 

Human form only:

 

PB

• Basically a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. You get some ranged, melee, and AoE. You get a heal other if you choose, dull pain clone and can fly.
• Light form gives you a mediocre amount of mez protection but no psionic resistance . It crashes taking half your HP and you can make it Perma but not avoid the crash.
• It's similar to a Sentinel albeit with some melee thrown in the mix.
• Doesn't require density

WS

• Built-in stealth, teleportation powers allows you to control which encounters you engage in.
• Damage Aura+ Soul Drain clone
• Sustain in stygian circle - probably the best sustain in the game.
• 2-3x pets, unchained essence AoE from dead bodies, inky Aspect stunning trash
• Eclipse crashless res the all and gives you endurance at its start
• Requires mob density 

Negative damage is typically less resisted than energy damage. The mez holes can be plugged with clarion 

 

I personally find if limited to human only a Warshade built with Perma eclipse recharge and slow res performs better in most content. It suffers though when trying to solo giant monsters or some AVs once the surrounding mob density is depleted.

 

That said if you're limiting yourself to human only because of concept that's one thing,but if it's because of playability complexity due to shape shifting and power trays....well that can easily enough be resolved with keybinds.

 

Honestly I could not explain it any better then both Eloora and Seraphim did, both have their pros/cons and just like a Tri form or Bi form it comes down to PeaceBringers being a much more steady AT with it's healing/damage/tanking whereas a WarShade fluctuates between being better or worse depending on the bodies around you ❤️

 

 - Lauci x

[StriderIV]

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I've played Kheldians for a long time. I've done triform, biform, human only on both PB and WS. Personally I think triform is the better way to play them so my answer likely has some bias.

 

Human form only:

 

PB

• Basically a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. You get some ranged, melee, and AoE. You get a heal other if you choose, dull pain clone and can fly.
• Light form gives you a mediocre amount of mez protection but no psionic resistance . It crashes taking half your HP and you can make it Perma but not avoid the crash.
• It's similar to a Sentinel albeit with some melee thrown in the mix.
• Doesn't require density

WS

• Built-in stealth, teleportation powers allows you to control which encounters you engage in.
• Damage Aura+ Soul Drain clone
• Sustain in stygian circle - probably the best sustain in the game.
• 2-3x pets, unchained essence AoE from dead bodies, inky Aspect stunning trash
• Eclipse crashless res the all and gives you endurance at its start
• Requires mob density 

Negative damage is typically less resisted than energy damage. The mez holes can be plugged with clarion 

 

I personally find if limited to human only a Warshade built with Perma eclipse recharge and slow res performs better in most content. It suffers though when trying to solo giant monsters or some AVs once the surrounding mob density is depleted.

 

That said if you're limiting yourself to human only because of concept that's one thing,but if it's because of playability complexity due to shape shifting and power trays....well that can easily enough be resolved with keybinds.

 

Thanks for this Kensai. So for endgame content, the WS might function more optimally with all the bodies flying, but a PB will be more consistent?

 

Seems like the like of mez resist for a WS compared to a PB is mostly negligible?

 

Last thing: someone mentioned “double mire” on a WS. Is this something you can only do if you are a bi form or human and dwarf?

2 hours ago, Goddess Laucianna said:

 

Honestly I could not explain it any better then both Eloora and Seraphim did, both have their pros/cons and just like a Tri form or Bi form it comes down to PeaceBringers being a much more steady AT with it's healing/damage/tanking whereas a WarShade fluctuates between being better or worse depending on the bodies around you ❤️

 

 - Lauci x

Thanks for the breakdown Lauci! I’ll have to play with both in character creator.

[SeraphimKensai]

33 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

Thanks for this Kensai. So for endgame content, the WS might function more optimally with all the bodies flying, but a PB will be more consistent?

 

Seems like the like of mez resist for a WS compared to a PB is mostly negligible?

 

Last thing: someone mentioned “double mire” on a WS. Is this something you can only do if you are a bi form or human and dwarf?

Endgame content both PBs and Warshades sadly are currently fairly outclassed from a min/max perspective l, otherwise well enough they can be casually used especially on well skilled players. PBs are more consistent and do not rely on mob density, but a Warshade usually outperforms most PBs (if played by an equally skilled player) at least in my experience.

 

The mez protection issue is something that depending on team composition could be mitigated, or you can take clarion.

 

Double mire is amazing but yes requires at least biform. I would personally recommend taking lobster at the very least just for double mire and the fact that you can shift into dwarf while mezzed essentially a break free.

 

I've suggested over the years adding mez protection to human shields and fixing the damage aspects of the ATs. There is some issue with how DPA is applied over some attacks and their damage scale, but hopefully will be addressed.

 

Changeling builds are in the best place they've been due to toggle suppression so that's extremely helpful for them.

 

It's still my hope that the ATs get a more significant look at addressing their long standing issues (in addition to creating more Kheldian related content, reintroduction of void hunters, cysts).

[StriderIV]

15 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Endgame content both PBs and Warshades sadly are currently fairly outclassed from a min/max perspective l, otherwise well enough they can be casually used especially on well skilled players. PBs are more consistent and do not rely on mob density, but a Warshade usually outperforms most PBs (if played by an equally skilled player) at least in my experience.

 

The mez protection issue is something that depending on team composition could be mitigated, or you can take clarion.

 

Double mire is amazing but yes requires at least biform. I would personally recommend taking lobster at the very least just for double mire and the fact that you can shift into dwarf while mezzed essentially a break free.

 

I've suggested over the years adding mez protection to human shields and fixing the damage aspects of the ATs. There is some issue with how DPA is applied over some attacks and their damage scale, but hopefully will be addressed.

 

Changeling builds are in the best place they've been due to toggle suppression so that's extremely helpful for them.

 

It's still my hope that the ATs get a more significant look at addressing their long standing issues (in addition to creating more Kheldian related content, reintroduction of void hunters, cysts).

This was amazing, thanks so much Kensai.

 

I was playing around with the character creator… man do the PB moves look like they HIT hard at least 😂 haha some nice crunch to him. Sad to hear they underperform compared to some AT’s endgame, but I do like how an All Human PB is kind of a “Jack of all trades.”

[Laucianna]

8 hours ago, StriderIV said:

This was amazing, thanks so much Kensai.

 

I was playing around with the character creator… man do the PB moves look like they HIT hard at least 😂 haha some nice crunch to him. Sad to hear they underperform compared to some AT’s endgame, but I do like how an All Human PB is kind of a “Jack of all trades.”

The thing with Kheldians is we are made to under perform at pretty much everything that another AT specializes in, we will never out tank a tanker, or out blast a blaster for instance. Our strength comes from being very good at multiple different things and being able to adjust to the environment as it is needed such as if the tanker pulls too much or gets killed, we can easily taunt the extras and keep them taunted with our dwarf powers, or if the dps get killed instantly we will still be standing to deal a good amount of DPS ❤️

 

 - Lauci x

[Thrax]

One is a cutter and the other plays with dead things. 

[G E Man]

It's all about the Kheldian's build and your power rotation. Some players go for damage others for survival whichever you choose to be popping inspirations can make your toon more survivable and deal more damage.

 

Learning how to pop inspirations can make your toon more "Juicy" then if you do not use all the various types of reds, yellows, supers, duals... etc...

 

 

Happy Hunting,

 

G E Man

Edited June 14, 2023 by G E Man
spelling

[JasperStone]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:22 PM, Goddess Laucianna said:

Both PeaceBringers and WarShades have their pros and cons compared to one another 🙂

 

- Lauci x

This excellent.

 

Warshades rely on the foes around them for boosts and heals.

PeaceBringers are self-reliant.

 

Again ... pros and cons

 

I have both ... love both equally