Stats after each TF

[kelika2]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:45 PM, MJABBAR88 said:

how many kills each player got.

i dunno about this one.  low damage rains like sleet and freezing rain cause lots of killshot messages despite doing maybe 30 damage at level 50

[Biosphere]

Huge support and yes for this change!

 

For the people who complain it will create elitism, I hate to break it to you but that already exists in this community. Go to any build channel and you'll see people who will argue about how their style of play is superior and the "right way." Or even in game, I've had a friend who would get whispers from random people telling her how she should be playing and what powers are useless, in arrogant kind of elitist way. Forming for 4 Star as well, people who say X is required or that you can't come if you don't match what they think is best.

 

Easy solution for everyone complaining: make the screen only visible to you, and make the stats shown only apply to you.

 

Example: I do an Aeon 4 Star on my Blaster. TF completes and the stats window that pops up shows all the stats for my Blaster that TF, and I'm the only one who can see it.

 

That way if someone wants to be snobby to me and ask me how much damage I dealt, I don't have to answer them. And I'm the only one who knows.

 

We need stuff like this in the game, especially for people who really care about trying to tweak and optimize their builds. How amazing would it be to be shown stats for your current respec, see maybe you're dealing less, and then adjust your powers to get more out of it? 

 

Please implement this change it has more backing from players in game than anyone is representing on the forums.

[Akisan]

12 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

We need stuff like this in the game, especially for people who really care about trying to tweak and optimize their builds. How amazing would it be to be shown stats for your current respec, see maybe you're dealing less, and then adjust your powers to get more out of it?

 

This is one of the reasons I'm somewhat on the fence about this instead of solidly in the "NO" camp.  To be fair though, such stats could be extremely misleading after any sort of PuG TF - your team comp and tactics (buffs/debuffs/herding/etc) can have huge impacts on those stats, without any indicator of such in the stats.  For that purpose, having the option for the stats to show up after running solo missions (radios, AE, whatever) would be much better.  (The stats would also be very relevant after TFs run by dedicated teams though, so I'd have that option available everywhere)

 

17 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

For the people who complain it will create elitism, I hate to break it to you but that already exists in this community. Go to any build channel and you'll see people who will argue about how their style of play is superior and the "right way." Or even in game, I've had a friend who would get whispers from random people telling her how she should be playing and what powers are useless, in arrogant kind of elitist way. Forming for 4 Star as well, people who say X is required or that you can't come if you don't match what they think is best.

 

That's... huh.  Sorry to hear that she's having troubles like that.  Not all (and I hope very few) of us are like that (random build "advice" whispers, I mean, come on, really?).  I get it for the build channels, since some people are there to show off their latest and greatest (not a blank check to be a jerk though...). 

 

My worry here, and the reason this currently has a "no" vote from me, is that this system will make it easier for that sort of elitism to infiltrate *all* of the game, and not just those pockets where it already exists.  I've seen it in several of the MMOs I tried while waiting for CoH to come back, and certainly don't want it here. 

(Somewhat related - I also think the "Set Bonuses" listing in Info should have a public/private toggle.  I think it's silly that some people judge based on what's in there, but some do, and I'd be 100% okay with taking that toy away from them. My Powers may be public knowledge, but my enhancement loadout shouldn't be)

[Chronicler J]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:45 PM, MJABBAR88 said:

How about we get stats after a completed TF.

 

how many kills each player got. How many deaths for each player? Perhaps damage taken, damage dealt and heals?

 

I've asked for this throughout the years. Usually results in the casual community making a mess of their Depends, even with private stats as the main idea. In all honesty, I don't need your stat readout to tell if you're dead weight. Half the time I can peek the power window and get a good laugh. Is it about time we had stats? Yes. Will this community approve it? No. We still have Beanbag. 

[MJABBAR88]

40 minutes ago, Chronicler J said:

 

I've asked for this throughout the years. Usually results in the casual community making a mess of their Depends, even with private stats as the main idea. In all honesty, I don't need your stat readout to tell if you're dead weight. Half the time I can peek the power window and get a good laugh. Is it about time we had stats? Yes. Will this community approve it? No. We still have Beanbag. 

So happy there are some sensible people. At the end of a tf I want to see how many times I died etc. Every modern game has stats. But I guess we are dinosaurs , we are playing a 19 year old game lol. 

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

So happy there are some sensible people. At the end of a tf I want to see how many times I died etc. Every modern game has stats. But I guess we are dinosaurs , we are playing a 19 year old game lol. 

Again with that sensible bit. People disagreeing with you does not make them not sensible. And insisting those that disagree with you are not sensible says something about your own sensibility. It's fine to have a position on something and defend it. Arguing that only your point is sensible however, is less so.

[Akisan]

42 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

Every modern game has stats. But I guess we are dinosaurs , we are playing a 19 year old game lol. 

 

Modern games also tend to be faster paced, and have such barbaric things like "equipment" (at least they're better about having cosmetic stuff that applies over said equipment, so the endgame players don't all look like clones of 5 or 6 people).  Also, it seems to me that said stats mostly show up in Competitive games - I don't see a lot of them, but then, I tend to play Co-op or Sandbox games.

 

CoH is also unusually transparent with chances and buffs - I've still yet to see a stat profile as detailed (and easy to check/track) as our Advanced Combat Attributes.  It's also rather uncommon for a real-time game engine itself to show your exact chance to hit and your roll for any given attack (pen and paper decended games like DDO aside), let alone have a cohesive log of them.

 

57 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

At the end of a tf I want to see how many times I died etc.

 

Some things... I just want to forget about.  If I don't remember dying, then it never happened, right? Someone else on the TF died those 19 times, right? (I'm totally not using Rise of the Phoenix on cooldown, I swear!)

[Rigged]

I hate to jranger this idea but having seen what it does to every community, I feel I have to. I get that elitism is already a problem here, but that's precisely the issue: I am against any idea that would encourage it. That elitism also encourages a defensive attitude in the opposite faction, those who are proud of how unoptimized their playstyle is. This division does not need to be exacerbated. 

 

The only game I have played where it doesn't come up regularly is FF14, because it is strictly against the rules to even use a DPS meter - though unofficially the GMs close a blind eye unless you try to whine about another player's performance using one. And while correlation does not imply causation, FF14's community is better than most and I cannot help but think this is at least one of many reasons for it.

 

It pains me because I myself am a massive min/maxer and build tweaker and would love to be able to see statistics in a group setting. But I have to content myself with timing solo runs instead.

 

Apologies to those who support this with the best of intentions, but there has been a demonstrable history of how DPS meters affect player psychology.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, MJABBAR88 said:

So happy there are some sensible people. At the end of a tf I want to see how many times I died etc. Every modern game has stats. But I guess we are dinosaurs , we are playing a 19 year old game lol. 

You can look at your logs

[Chronicler J]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

You can look at your logs

 

[Chronicler J]

2 hours ago, MJABBAR88 said:

So happy there are some sensible people. 

 

Not many left.

[Luminara]

Okay.  But it has to cover everything, not just damage and healing.

 

Everything.  Total time enemies spent debuffed, for each debuff.  Total endurance drained.  Number of attacks delayed, and by how long, by -Recharge.  Enemies' time spent mezzed (and it would have to exclude time spent with an ineffective mez applied, to discount things like Warwolves shrugging off Immoblizes, and AVs ignoring status effects), for each status effect.  Percentage of teammate damage output attributable to buffs from other teammates.  Percentage of teammate damage mitigation attributable to buffs from other teammates.  Damage dealt by Confused enemies, and percentages of variables attributable to buffs from Confused enemies.

 

Every fucking thing has to be accounted for.  If it's not applicable to everyone, presenting information useful and valid for every archetype's distinct abilities, I guarantee that it won't be done at all, because the HC team is an inclusive group and absolutely will not add anything to the game which would outright exclude players.

[OverkillEngine]

Any such scoreboard tool is going to present a woefully incomplete picture of what actually happened, and will absolutely be abused in bad faith. There are too many mechanics in this game that cannot be properly quantified and summarized in a format that the average elitist can grasp to prevent them from doing so. How for example, do you quantify the mitigation effects of a slow that caused damage to never occur in the logs because the mob never got close enough to fire off its melee attacks? (Or it was also layered with a floored tohit debuff from another player too? Who gets credit then? How is this credit quantified?)

The answer is you can't. That is an order of complexity far beyond what a simple scoreboard can display. And unless the scoreboard paints a 10000% accurate and complete from every multiversal angle picture of what happened, you are handing license for abuse to the same sort of people that refuse to grasp basic things like for example that confusion when properly applied, results in increased xp/time.

It's just asking for lazy snap judgements.

It will poison the game for far more people than it benefits. Net negative. Vote is no.

Edited July 9, 2023 by OverkillEngine

[lemming]

13 hours ago, Chronicler J said:

 

Yea, that's why I wrote my own parser  though in my case I use it for drops, etc... since damage done isn't very interesting for many of the reasons noted.

[MJABBAR88]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

Okay.  But it has to cover everything, not just damage and healing.

 

Everything.  Total time enemies spent debuffed, for each debuff.  Total endurance drained.  Number of attacks delayed, and by how long, by -Recharge.  Enemies' time spent mezzed (and it would have to exclude time spent with an ineffective mez applied, to discount things like Warwolves shrugging off Immoblizes, and AVs ignoring status effects), for each status effect.  Percentage of teammate damage output attributable to buffs from other teammates.  Percentage of teammate damage mitigation attributable to buffs from other teammates.  Damage dealt by Confused enemies, and percentages of variables attributable to buffs from Confused enemies.

 

Every fucking thing has to be accounted for.  If it's not applicable to everyone, presenting information useful and valid for every archetype's distinct abilities, I guarantee that it won't be done at all, because the HC team is an inclusive group and absolutely will not add anything to the game which would outright exclude players.

No it doesn’t have to include everything. I just want something. It’s not meant to rank players on performance. It’s meant to give us some insight and fun stats. 
 

as I mentioned before tf fill all the time and I’ve never seen anyone being asked to change a toon. Giving us stats won’t change that. We all know that the controller is going to do the least damage and get the fewest kills, but we still to TFs with them and play them. No one is that hard core to care.

 

even in the 4star ITF and Aeon I see controllers, dominators etc join. 
 

stop thinking of it as a ranking tool and just take it for what it should be. A stat tool to give you some information.

[Biosphere]

19 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

No it doesn’t have to include everything. I just want something. It’s not meant to rank players on performance. It’s meant to give us some insight and fun stats. 

 

Exactly, like how it shows up in SMITE once a game is done. Damage Done, Damage Taken, Damage Mitigated, Player Healing. Even if you stuck to those 4 metrics it'd be great. 

 

2 hours ago, OverkillEngine said:

How for example, do you quantify the mitigation effects of a slow that caused damage to never occur in the logs because the mob never got close enough to fire off its melee attacks? (Or it was also layered with a floored tohit debuff from another player too? Who gets credit then? How is this credit quantified?)

 

That's easy. If you complete a TF and you see that your damage taken and damage mitigated is a lot lower than normal, and you had an Ice Control or other slow debuffer on the team as your primary support, then it's very clear the slows helped by a lot.

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

No it doesn’t have to include everything. I just want something. It’s not meant to rank players on performance. It’s meant to give us some insight and fun stats.

 

You mean insight and fun stats for some players, and fuck everyone else who might want to know how his/her Holds contributed, or how many enemy misses were due to a ToHit debuff, or how he/she might improve a build by tracking buff/debuff/status effect/anything other than damage and healing.

 

You insist that this is just for funsies, and in the same breath, declaring that players who aren't interested in your two or three stats don't matter, but you don't seem to comprehend that this is exactly the attitude no-one fucking wants in this community.  This isn't anything but an idea at the moment and you're already being exclusionary, selfish, and narrow-minded.  You're a breath away from a form of discrimination at this point, what with the way you blatantly disregard even the possibility that other people should be given the same access to stats relevant to them... and you're either so obtuse that you don't see it, or so malicious that you're trying to foster this kind of attitude game-wide.

 

Not happening, pumpkin.  Try one of the other server groups, the HC team isn't stupid.

[Akisan]

51 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

We all know that the controller is going to do the least damage and get the fewest kills

 

This may be true for some of them, but some controller sets can dish out pretty good damage, especially after they get pets ( Illusion/* is pretty high on that list, as I recall).

 

31 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

Exactly, like how it shows up in SMITE once a game is done. Damage Done, Damage Taken, Damage Mitigated, Player Healing. Even if you stuck to those 4 metrics it'd be great. 

 

A) That's a competitive PvP game, you're playing against another team of players, so it makes sense to have individualized breakdowns for your performance. This is a co-operative, PvE game, with far more ways for players to get creative about how they fight.  Those stats are great for an after-action, here's how you did versus your competition (and your previous performances), but can very, very easily lead to toxic, highly elitist behavior (many, many PvP games struggle with that problem; it's one of the big reasons I avoid them).  I think those stats would be great to have for fine-tuning builds or ironing out mission strategies and tactics, but it's so very not worth the price.

 

B) 3 of those metrics are easy (damage done, damage taken, player healing).  Damage Mitigated is all the stuff that @Luminara was asking for - damage prevented by slows, by taunting the boss off your back line, sapping the AV until they just stand there, engaging intelligently vs. blindly running into ambushes, the list goes on.  (Some teams do very well with that last one, so it may count as a smart engagement for them.  Most teams don't though...).  If you want that last metric, then yeah, you'll need to have *all* of it, not just some minor bit about how much damage your absorb/defenses/resists stopped.  My blaster won't even get a good number for that score, simply because my sustain is a -40% slow and -14% damage debuff aura (I don't even have to mention that I liberally use my Holds to keep Bosses, EBs, and pesky Lieutenants from interfering, and my Slows/Immobilize/mobility to keep AVs out of melee range, but those'll really screw up that metric)

[Rudra]

Here's the thing about the damage mitigated part, just to tackle one thing. In order for the game to report damage mitigated, it has to track a few things. First, we look at straight damage resistance.

 

1. Starting damage caused by the target.

2. Base damage resist against specific damage type on the character.

3. Additional damage resist granted said character, broken up by other characters. (So Player A was the mob's target. Players B and C both buffed Player A's damage resist. Player B and C would both be affecting Player A differently depending on what powers they used and what enhancements those powers had slotted. To give Player B and C credit for their damage mitigation, their separate buffs would have to be tracked and calculated separately.)

4. Damage resist reductions inflicted on the character. (Edit: Mob -RES effects amplifying the damage the character would take.)

 

And that is just for damage resist buffing, not even looking at other forms of damage mitigation. Now we get more complicated.

 

Holds, Stuns, Enemy Intangibility (Only Affects Self), Confuses, and Sleeps: These effects mitigate damage by preventing the mob from attacking players in the first place. So now the game would have to track which player those mobs might have targeted, whether or not they would have hit that player, and how much damage that mob would have done to that player after damage resistance. Interestingly, this category also includes effects mobs can impose on themselves, though those situations would need to not be counted for this.

 

Defense Buffs and Enemy ACC/ToHit Debuffs: These effects mitigate damage by preventing them from hitting the player. To track this, the game would have to separately track the character's own defense and check to see if the attack would have hit despite that defense, as well as the extra defense provided by each other player that granted a defense buff and whether or not the -ACC/ToHit prevented the hit in the first place. Which gets really interesting to figure out on a team running multiple instances of Maneuvers. Each separate defense buff would have to be checked to give credit to the buffing player for damage mitigated. On something that is tracked as a single lump sum to be applied simultaneously.

 

Slows and Fears: These effects mitigate damage by reducing the rate at which such damage may be applied. To track this, the game would have to basically run two versions of itself. One version where these effects don't exist so the game can track how often the damage would have been applied, and the played version where the effects worked as we see them in the game. Because that is the only way to know how much damage was mitigated by slowing your enemies.

 

Decoys: I list this as decoys rather than pets because some pets do not take damage but can still be targeted by enemies. So now they would need to track how much damage they would have taken if they had health bars for damage mitigation, but only if the attack would have been aimed at and hit a player instead of another decoy or pet.

 

Pets: Pets are like decoys for this list, except they already track damage since they can be defeated.

 

I'm sure there is more I am forgetting, but this is what the devs would have to look at tracking, none of which the game tracks currently in any capacity, just to give a Damage Mitigated result. Let alone anything else the Stats Window would need to report.

 

(I also find it ludicrous that a dedicated PvP game is being used as a comparison for a designed as PvE game like they have any correlation to each other. I find it funny as well that the reason why I and others I know hate PvP is because of the highly toxic player base we encountered in PvP, and that further supports our argument about the toxicity of the OP, whether intended or not. And if the justification for this is "Well, these PvP games do it, so we should too", then my "No" vote is a most decidedly "Oh Hells NO!" vote.)

Edited July 9, 2023 by Rudra
Edited for grammar.

[OverkillEngine]

1 hour ago, MJABBAR88 said:

It’s not meant to rank players on performance. It’s meant to give us some insight and fun stats. 

 

Your intent matters less than nothing in the face of what will happen to far more people than yourself like it does in every other game that has ever existed with an end of match  scoreboard.

Using a competitive PvP game as an example was especially ironic.

[MJABBAR88]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

You mean insight and fun stats for some players, and fuck everyone else who might want to know how his/her Holds contributed, or how many enemy misses were due to a ToHit debuff, or how he/she might improve a build by tracking buff/debuff/status effect/anything other than damage and healing.

 

You insist that this is just for funsies, and in the same breath, declaring that players who aren't interested in your two or three stats don't matter, but you don't seem to comprehend that this is exactly the attitude no-one fucking wants in this community.  This isn't anything but an idea at the moment and you're already being exclusionary, selfish, and narrow-minded.  You're a breath away from a form of discrimination at this point, what with the way you blatantly disregard even the possibility that other people should be given the same access to stats relevant to them... and you're either so obtuse that you don't see it, or so malicious that you're trying to foster this kind of attitude game-wide.

 

Not happening, pumpkin.  Try one of the other server groups, the HC team isn't stupid.

You are misguided. As people have mentioned the stats you mentio are not trackable, hence, they would never be included. Let’s stick to the stats that are actually possible. 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

You mean insight and fun stats for some players, and fuck everyone else who might want to know how his/her Holds contributed, or how many enemy misses were due to a ToHit debuff, or how he/she might improve a build by tracking buff/debuff/status effect/anything other than damage and healing.

 

You insist that this is just for funsies, and in the same breath, declaring that players who aren't interested in your two or three stats don't matter, but you don't seem to comprehend that this is exactly the attitude no-one fucking wants in this community.  This isn't anything but an idea at the moment and you're already being exclusionary, selfish, and narrow-minded.  You're a breath away from a form of discrimination at this point, what with the way you blatantly disregard even the possibility that other people should be given the same access to stats relevant to them... and you're either so obtuse that you don't see it, or so malicious that you're trying to foster this kind of attitude game-wide.

 

Not happening, pumpkin.  Try one of the other server groups, the HC team isn't stupid.

Expand  

You are misguided. As people have mentioned the stats you mentio are not trackable, hence, they would never be included. Let’s stick to the stats that are actually possible. 

The point is that they would need to be tracked, and failing to track and report them for the OP leads to some very toxic game play.

 

(Edit: The other point @Luminara is making is that you are already exhibiting the sort of behavior we are trying to keep out of the game in your comments that anyone that disagrees with you is not sensible and their comments have no meaning, their experiences with the things that occurred when the OP was introduced in other games have no meaning, and that only your view point is what matters. Players have given reasons why this is a bad idea, even citing problems with implementing it in addition to what has occurred every other time this was implemented. And so far your response is our comments mean nothing because we are not sensible because we don't share your point of view.)

Edited July 9, 2023 by Rudra

[MJABBAR88]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The point is that they would need to be tracked, and failing to track and report them for the OP leads to some very toxic game play.

 

(Edit: The other point @Luminara is making is that you are already exhibiting the sort of behavior we are trying to keep out of the game in your comments that anyone that disagrees with you is not sensible and their comments have no meaning, their experiences with the things that occurred when the OP was introduced in other games have no meaning, and that only your view point is what matters. Players have given reasons why this is a bad idea, even citing problems with implementing it in addition to what has occurred every other time this was implemented. And so far your response is our comments mean nothing because we are not sensible because we don't share your point of view.)

I just don’t understand. You’re not going to go into a hard mode tf without debuffs and buffs. For all other content you can bring whatever you want and you’ll be successful and manage to finish the tf. So not sure why it would be toxic to see how people did? 

[Akisan]

32 minutes ago, MJABBAR88 said:

So not sure why it would be toxic to see how people did? 

 

People are... judgy^{[Citation Needed]}, especially after something goes poorly.  Not everyone (or even most) will be, and there are plenty of legitimate uses for a tool like this, but, well, the exceptions make the rule. Even if a small fraction of people are toxic about this in game, it'll have a huge impact on how accessible the game feels for "non-elite" players, and make our community feel much more toxic and elitist. (Like what @Biosphere's friend went through, only now more quantifiable and widespread)

[SwitchFade]

Again..

 

 

Hard no vote.