DM - ATO and Hybrid question

Paradox1 · August 28, 2023

Been playing a long time and at times do deep dives into the numbers mostly to make effective heroes and villains. I have a scrapper DM/EnA and working way through building up incarnate powers and getting resources to buy the ATO enhancers.

I have couple questions would like to check in with scrapper community:

1. On build I have in dark melee – Shadow Punch, Smite, Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear, Siphon Life, Soul Drain, Midnight grasp and from patron Dark Blast. Not running perma-hasten and plan to six slot the two ATO into two of the above powers (not Siphon Life). Which of Shadow Punch, Smite, Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear and Midnight Grasp would be the best to fully slot with a set of ATO’s and why?

2. For Hybrid - looking at the Assault path to increase damage output. Which Hybrid – Core or Radial works best for DM and can you share why?

Thanks in advance and appreciate all the info that folks have shared over time.

Celtic Fist

Uun · August 29, 2023

I don't think there's a need for both Shadow Punch and Smite and would drop the former. I would also take Moonbeam instead of Dark Blast. Scrapper's Strike provides a global bonus, so it doesn't matter what power you slot it in. I generally slot it in a power that has a long cooldown (like Midnight Grasp) to take advantage of the recharge boost. Alternatively, you can split the set between two powers to double the 5% S/L defense bonus. You want to slot Critical Strikes in the power you use before your heavy hitter.
Core works best for ATs with a damage modifier of 1.0 or greater.

Without_Pause · August 29, 2023

/EnA shouldn't have that much issue hitting S/L Def cap without splitting the ATO set. It's a Claws build, but even the non-final build caps S/L/F/C/E. Negative is just under 40%.

Yomo Kimyata · August 30, 2023

On 8/28/2023 at 5:21 PM, Paradox1 said:

1. On build I have in dark melee – Shadow Punch, Smite, Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear, Siphon Life, Soul Drain, Midnight grasp and from patron Dark Blast. Not running perma-hasten and plan to six slot the two ATO into two of the above powers (not Siphon Life). Which of Shadow Punch, Smite, Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear and Midnight Grasp would be the best to fully slot with a set of ATO’s and why?

To me, this summarizes to where to put the Critical Strikes proc (and maybe how many pieces of Critical Strikes to slot with it). I like to approach that question with 1: what attack is going to be a part of my rotation that will have a good chance to activate; and 2: which/how many attacks can I expect to get off that will benefit from the proc if activated.

For a pure single target rotation, you'll get the best proc chances from Midnight Grasp, but that means of course you can't get the proc bonus on Midnight Grasp which is a big hitter. Since most of my melee is fighting as many critters as possible, I generally put it in Shadow Maul. If you are hitting five minions, you have five chances for the proc to activate, which means that the chances of the proc NOT activating is minimal. The problem here is when you are down to one hard target your overall activation chances will drop.

Next, sadly, it helps to understand the mechanics of the combat system and the proc. When it activates, there is a 3.25 second period when the bonus is in play. But understanding when that bonus activates is important. Example: Midnight Grasp has a 2.244 second Arcanatime, which means it takes a total of 2.244 seconds to activate and execute fully. It also has 0.533 second Animation Time before Effect, which is when it checks for things like does the power hit and damage and proc effects. (All of these numbers are from City of Data (all hail Uberguy)). So if you have the proc in Midnight Grasp and you activate it, after 0.533 seconds it checks to see if the proc activates, and then you have 1.711 seconds of what I call dead time as the power finishes animations and such. This cuts into the 3.25 seconds of active proc bonus, which leaves you with 1.539 seconds of active time.

Now, in order for the proc bonus to work for the next power you activate, it needs to have less than 1.539 seconds Animation Time Before Effect. All powers in Dark Melee except Soul Drain do. In fact, what you could do is get off two attacks if the Arcanatime of the first attack plus the Animation Time Before Effect of the second power < 1.539 seconds. Shadow Punch then Shadow Maul should work. In general, I assume that I will be able to get one attack off after/if the proc activates, but I check to see if certain powers will not work.

tidge · August 30, 2023

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

To me, this summarizes to where to put the Critical Strikes proc (and maybe how many pieces of Critical Strikes to slot with it). I like to approach that question with 1: what attack is going to be a part of my rotation that will have a good chance to activate; and 2: which/how many attacks can I expect to get off that will benefit from the proc if activated.

IMO these are the key consideration for almost all short-duration non-damage-dealing %procs in attacks. Examples include %-Resistance, %BuildUp as well as %+Recharge *gasp*. It's one thing for me to add a %proc piece as part of a set that was otherwise going to be slotted, but if that franken-slot isn't contributing as a %proc in any meaningful way... I'm sure I have some other power that can use the slot.

SomeGuy · August 31, 2023

As someone who has a DM/BIO/SOUL that does more AOE than most AT combos known for AOE, I feel pretty confident saying that Shadow Maul is very skippable (I'll put 1B inf on that).

I've tried putting the ATO2 proc in Midnight Grasp but holy cow. MG has a very long animation time and the ATO2 proc,, if it goes off there, is activated way to soon (ATBE (AttackTimeBeforeEffect)) in the attacks animation to get real benefit from it. ArcanaTime is 2.244s and the proc is activated .533s in to the attack. So now you have (2.244-.533=1.711...3.25-1.711=1.539) 1.539 of use from the proc. Now, look at putting it in Siphon Life. It has a AT of 2.112s and a ATBE .833s. When it goes off here you will have 1.971s of the proc to use. In the game of milliseconds this is a massive deal.

I definitely agree with @Uun about taking both Shadow Punch and Smite may be a bit superfluous. I'm a Smite person myself.

Proc bomb Touch of Fear. Slot Soul Drain (I like to slap the ATO1 set here) and Dark Consumption for damage (Obliteration set is my fav here).

Grats on the pairing. DM/ENA sounds legit. Maybe you can get some ideas from this:

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite
Level 1: Brawl
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 22: Double Jump
------------

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
(3) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
(3) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance
(5) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(5) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(7) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage

Level 1: Kinetic Shield

(A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(7) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(9) Red Fortune - Defense
(48) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 2: Dampening Field

(A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
(9) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
(11) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
(11) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance

Level 4: Power Shield

(A) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
(13) Reactive Defenses - Defense
(13) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(15) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime
(15) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime
(17) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 6: Touch of Fear

(A) Accuracy IO
(17) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
(19) Glimpse of the Abyss - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
(19) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
(21) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
(21) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage

Level 8: Siphon Life

(A) Superior Critical Strikes - RechargeTime/+50% Crit Proc
(23) Superior Critical Strikes - Accuracy/Damage
(23) Superior Critical Strikes - Damage/RechargeTime
(25) Superior Critical Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
(25) Superior Critical Strikes - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(27) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 10: Entropic Aura

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 12: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 14: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(27) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16: Energy Protection

(A) Aegis - Resistance
(29) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
(29) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
(31) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance

Level 18: Dark Consumption

(A) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
(31) Armageddon - Damage
(31) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
(33) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(33) Armageddon - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 20: Energy Cloak

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 22: Super Jump

(A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

Level 24: Boxing

(A) Empty

Level 26: Soul Drain

(A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus
(34) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage
(36) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Recharge
(36) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(36) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(37) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 28: Energize

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
(37) Preventive Medicine - Heal
(37) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
(39) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
(39) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime
(39) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance

Level 30: Tough

(A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
(33) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(34) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(34) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 32: Midnight Grasp

(A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(40) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(40) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
(40) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(42) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 35: Energy Drain

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 38: Zapp

(A) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(42) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
(43) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
(43) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(43) Apocalypse - Recharge/Accuracy
(45) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 41: Ball Lightning

(A) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
(45) Ragnarok - Damage
(45) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
(46) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(46) Ragnarok - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 44: Weave

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(46) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(50) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(50) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 47: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(48) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(48) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 49: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 1: Critical Hit

(A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
(50) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 49: Quick Form

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=scrapper_melee.dark_melee&at=scrapper

biostem · August 31, 2023

The only place slotting the ATOs really matters is with Critical Strikes, since it has a proc rate of 2 or 3 times per minute, (so you'll want an attack with roughly the same recharge, or some convenient fraction thereof). Scrapper's Strike is just a passive bonus to crit chance for all your powers, so it really wouldn't matter where you slot that one. I think a better question would be what other melee or tohit debuff sets might serve you better.

smnolimits43 · August 31, 2023

hmm.. i would think that Shadow Maul is one of the fun powers of dark melee. If your gonna skip a power i would suggest Midnight Grasp. Thats just my opinion of course.

Without_Pause · August 31, 2023

Midnight Grasp has a DPA of 71.207 if all of the DoTs hit. That's not that bad. Focus is at 65.12. Head Splitter is 64.856. That's not even factoring in the damage type. Shadow Maul's DPA is 30.278. Meanwhile Slice beats SM's DPA at 34.29, recharges faster, and a bit bigger arc.

Uun · August 31, 2023

22 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Midnight Grasp has a DPA of 71.207 if all of the DoTs hit.

The DoT is coded 100% chance. The only reason they wouldn't go off is if the target is dead.

Without_Pause · August 31, 2023

36 minutes ago, Uun said:

The DoT is coded 100% chance. The only reason they wouldn't go off is if the target is dead.

Correct, and at that point you don't care that you lost out on damage.

ScarySai · October 3, 2023

Smite for the scrapper's strike set, Siphon life for critical strike procs - full set if you -have- to, but I wouldn't. It's a good power to frankenslot.

Assault radial unless you plan to solo without using your insp trays at all. Between soul drain, team buffs and reds, you'll be flirting with the damage cap and wish you had radial.

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