Lets talk Regeneration Set

[Blackjoy]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:27 AM, liveevil2000 said:

after reading the posts here and seeing the heated debate it stirred up. I decided to see for myself. 
 

I made 4 toons last night. 
all Brutes. All with claws as a primary.  All science origin. Seemed a fitting  set and origin with regen and a “controlled scientific” experiment and all. 
… and yes same costume design! I’m lazy that way. 

The defensive sets going head to head are

regeneration

willpower

super reflexes

Invulnerability 

So I know you already decided /Regen wasn't for you.  But I essentially did this on my own over the last six months.  Except I used Savage Melee and paired it with  /Regen, /SR,  /Ninjitsu, /Shield.   I also tried Staff/Willpower and En/Rad.  I got all of these toons in 40-50 (several to 50).  However, before I share the results, let's clarify some things.

 

1.  The problem with a discussion on Scrapper secondaries is that you are asking the wrong question.  Or rather, the answer is highly dependent on what assumptions each person is making.   Let me show you:

 

a) /Regen doesn't suck.  Not even remotely.  In fact, it's one of the top performing sets for how scrappers were designed to function.   

 

b) /Regen sucks because a small vocal minority of players are evaluating the set based on its ability to solo lvl 50 4x8 content, and acting as if that is the only standard by which to compare the secondaries.

 

2.  Scrapper secondaries who are soloing 4x8 are get 95% of their mitigation from outside of their secondaries.  So the irony of the secondary comparisons is not about the set itself, but how well the set can leverage the unbalanced impact of Pool Powers, Set IOs, and Incarnates.

 

3.  NOBODY is consistently soloing 4x8 without heavily investing in a build.   Those builds involves either capping +DEF or +RES, or heavily relying on things like cycling Barrier and Shadow Meld.  

 

4.  /Regen gets a bad rap because at level 50, it is the hardest set to cap +DEF or +RES and capping +DEF is THE most effective method of mitigation.   It's the reason why /SR is considered one of the better sets, even though naked, it is the one of the worst.  

 

What is my basis for saying this?

 

Awhile back, I was lobbying to get some quality of life improvements for /SR as a scrapper, as it is one of the worst sets leveling up.   Naturally some people insisted /SR is one of the best sets and it wasn't as bad as /Regen (said by the some of same people claiming /Regen sucks in this thread).   So I went and tested it for myself.  I was never a fan of /Regen on Live.  Never liked it.  But after soloing on straight IOs to 50, and then doing it again to 40 with another /Regen, I have found /Regen to be just a smidge behind /Ninjitsu for the best experience in leveling up.  By level 40 I was easily soloing +3s without using ANY inspiration or ANY power pools for mitigation.  I wasn't even using Hasten during combat.   This  without Tough or Weave or Shadow Meld or Rune of Protection, etc.   

 

/Regen far outperforms other sets in nominal game play.   But there are some caveats:

 

1.  /Regen requires a high degree of system mastery.   You have to know what you're fighting.  What status effects they use, how they fight, and how much damage things are likely to do.

 

2.  /Regen puts a lot more load on the player.   As you indicated, you don't have the "finesse" to play /Regen.  You have to be paying attention to your health bar at ALL times.   When you hear that sound of your Toon taking damage several hits in a row, you'd better be keeping one eyeball on your health and knowing when you have to time Reconstruction or use Dull Pain.    You have to anticipate the use/need for Instant Healing, because it ain't instant. 

 

Contrast this with /SR which is fire and forget.  You can put Practiced Brawler on autocast and that's all the attention you have to pay to the set, especially if you're above softcap and you haven't taken Elude.

 

3. /Regen is highly susceptible to debuffs, as many have opined.   This means you have to be very cognizant of who can/is debuffing you and how to stop it or mitigate it.  This is especially true when you firght +3/4 and you're getting hit all the time.  a +3/4 Sappers will own you.    Again, this adds to #2.  You have to really understand/know the game.

 

 

Are you wrong for not liking /Regen?  Not at all.  /SR at softcap is so much easier to play.  You just roll into almost anything you want and start punching.  But leveling up an /SR is one of the worst experiences, imo. 

 

The real problem with /Regen on the forums is you can't his the +DEF cap...and least not when Shadow Meld is down.   So this makes it much harder to solo 4x8 and as a result, you have people who trash the set. 

 

And let me point out, that I played the these sets without bank rolling them.  So if you're pumping Set IO's into /SR or /Shield from Day 1, then those sets are going to be a lot better than if you're only adding IOs when you can afford them on your own.   

 

The best set I've played leveling up is /Ninjitsu.  I was soloing at +3 by the 30....WITHOUT Inspiration (though have used the to fight EBs)  and without Set IOs (except for Overwhelming Fear which I put in all the other toons, so it's the same for everyone.  I also have not used any Tough or Weave on any of these builds.   /Nin is the hybrid of /SR and /Regen.   It provides enough +DEF that you aren't ravaged by debuffs and it has a click heal and click endurance which means my uptime is a smidge better than /Regen.

 

After /Regen, I'd probably vote /Rad as the third best leveling up.  It doesn't have quite the uptime of the top two.   /Willpower is not that great unless you really pour money into a build.  It lacks a +Heal and that makes it very susceptible to being rushed-down after an Alpha.  Plus, it's T9 sucks. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

b) /Regen sucks because a small vocal minority of players are evaluating the set based on its ability to solo lvl 50 4x8 content, and acting as if that is the only standard by which to compare the secondaries.

 

Wrong. I challenge you to ask random people in game, not your buddies if they think Regen sucks or not. I think you will find it is quite the opposite.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

nominal game play

 

Key word right there.

Nominal: very small; far below the real value or cost.

So running missions at +0 or +1? What is Nominal to you?

[Kaika]

6 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

 By level 40 I was easily soloing +3s without using ANY inspiration or ANY power pools for mitigation.  I wasn't even using Hasten during combat.   This  without Tough or Weave or Shadow Meld or Rune of Protection, etc.  

I hate to say this, but the fact you see that as a "flex" for the set is downright adorable, even on SOs, around that level just about any melee should be capable of that. To add to that, saying that tough and weave were never "intended" for scrappers to use is baffling considering they have been in the game since day one, and were even common back in the day. As someone who does not consider my character complete till they can comfortably solo most groups at 4x8, saying 95% is from outside their secondary is absolutely ridiculous, or else secondary choice would barely matter. For sure, they all can reach that 4x8 point, but they go about it in different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses, this wouldn't be the case if it was just IOs, and Barrier doing all the work. If that was even remotely the case wouldn't that make regen better then the rest, as it's "more powerful" without outside mitigation.  Regen being considered bad isn't a new thing, it's been considered that ways since IH got nerfed effectively, long before IOs and incarnates. To say "a small vocal minority of players" are calling it bad is just incorrect, even most people who defend the set know it's a pretty unpopular opinion, and it has been for a fairly long time.

[Psi-bolt]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Wrong. I challenge you to ask random people in game, not your buddies if they think Regen sucks or not. I think you will find it is quite the opposite.

 

Have done so many times, most people think it's OK but too clicky.  I have given people tips on how to make it less so.  Usually this is when I'm playing my Brute and people are surprised that I'm not dying.   No one is saying that Regen is some godlike set that stands above all others.  As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that, and frankly even going back to Issue 1 it wasn't that.   But likewise, no one I have interacted with has said that Regen is this terrible set that has no value.

 

Regen's issues have been debated ad nauseum in this thread, so I won't rehash.   I'll just reiterate my point.  Regen is...fine.  Not good, not bad, just fine.  It plays so much differently than other sets that I think most players would just prefer to take a set that allows you to softcap defense and steamroll.  Hell, I personally enjoy that too.  I'm a big fan of Ninjitsu and Energy Aura for that reason.  

[liveevil2000]

Just to be clear.

I'm not into the entire min/max thing, yes I want to be good at the game, but I dont need to be the best. I dont need to hit content at +4/8, although that would be cool to solo and feel completely OP! but I dont think my skill level at crafting toons is there yet.

 

To quote the description on wiki of a Brute - "Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute you revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight fight. Protracted battles only makes you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become."

That is my play style with a hand to hand character, dive in reckless abandon. I do not have the game knowledge to size up what I am about to fight and understand the potential debuffs, attack strength, etc... Sure I know which mobs will mez or end drain, but other than generalizations, I dont know squat.

I havent played this game since shortly after CoV came out on live and I just came back here around June of this year, so I am still trying to get a grasp IO sets, incarnates and such.

 

I feel the regen set wasnt forgiving enough for what I know of the game and my style of play.

Is it a good set or a bad set? ... it wasnt a good fit for me, thats all I know.

[Psi-bolt]

12 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

Is it a good set or a bad set? ... it wasnt a good fit for me, thats all I know.

 

Absolutely fair point.  It's like SR isn't for me.  It's a great set, but for me it's not fun.  

[Without_Pause]

7 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

2.  Scrapper secondaries who are soloing 4x8 are get 95% of their mitigation from outside of their secondaries.

I honestly can't think of any Scrapper secondary that would literally get 95% of its mitigation from pool powers. That's a set which doesn't even get put on the Beta server. Case in point, I deactivated all pool powers on my EA Scrapper and still got Def numbers near 40% and numerous Res in the 40% range. And yes, that is a full IOed out build, but I don't think even on SOs your statement holds up. Pool powers don't offer THAT much mitigation. I'm getting around 12% more Def with pool powers.

 

As someone who's namesake here is from a Claws/regen on Live who used nothing more than Level 25 common IOs, it solos fine on the original diff settings. End game mobs can be annoying, but not to where I felt like the build was unplayable. Regen is way easier to level soloing than SR or Shield. Both of those sets can use IOs and even more so Incarnates to wave a big ole wand over their sets issues. It is why I have so few of them at 50. Hell, I debated keeping a Dark/shield Scrapper who was running on common IOs. 

 

Part of the issue here is some sets get left behind when it comes to IOs and Incarnates while others flourished. Regen got better with those, but other sets really took off when those got added. 

 

I solo +3/x8 on a Scrapper build comfortably enough to where I could easily do it at +4. I don't use Barrier or Shadow Meld. Brutes don't even get Shadow Meld.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Without_Pause

[smnolimits43]

i have 2 characters with Regen:

1) Lady Gams: A Homage to Lady Tsunade from Naruto Shippuden:  She is a SS/Regen Brute

and

2) Metable: Kind of a Homage to T2: Judgement Day:  He is a Claws/Regen Scrapper

 

I find that if you make characters that you like to play, anything, even Regen is manageable.

 

You know what, once the servers come back up, i think i'll play both today.

[Blackjoy]

18 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Wrong. I challenge you to ask random people in game, not your buddies if they think Regen sucks or not. I think you will find it is quite the opposite.

lol.  So let me get this straight.  You want me to ask random people what they think of /Regen and replace my experience with my own in-game A/B testing of it against other sets with their opinions?  Sure.  I'll get right on that.   And FYI, when I do see people playing /Regen, I do ask them what they think and they think its fine.   But then they are already playing the set in into the 30s, so obviously they don't think its trash.

 

17 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So running missions at +0 or +1? What is Nominal to you?

I've run all the secondaries I listed above to the breaking point.  /Regen can easily handle +3x1 by mid 30's.   I could do +4's at 40+ if I took Focused Accuracy, but these runs are entirely devoid of Power Pool mitigation, Set IO bonuses (except everyone gets at least 5 Overwhelming Fear), and Incarnates.  Though I did use Hasten if I used DP or IH between fights to shorten down time.  This is why I put /Nin above /Regen.  /Rad can handle +3s as well.  

 

/SR is horrible for down time.  I have to take a knee after every fight or every other fight.  Even using blues and greens after the fight to recover, it is the worst leveling speed by a country mile.  The only thing /SR is really good at is running away and surviving.  The passive resistances are the best at giving you time to flee, provided you're not fighting toxic or psi.   /SR also gets way better now that they made Elude available earlier.  This allows the set to take on some of the EBs at +2 with non-set IOs and no Insp.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

No one is saying that Regen is some godlike set that stands above all others. 

Leveling up, it's way better than the +DEF sets except for /Nin.  By the 40's, the vulnerability to debuffing, because I'm running vs +3/4s, and the increased damage output of bosses brings it back down to earth.   In order to defeat Nosferatu in the 30s, I had to put it back to +0 and use a bunch of purples.  His -To HIt, floored my accuracy and made him almost unkillable for my /Regen.  I also failed to fight him with Riptide still alive.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that, and frankly even going back to Issue 1 it wasn't that.

Before /Regen's first nerf, the stories are true.  Once you got Instant Healing at like 28, which was a toggle, /Regen was essentially unkillable after the alpha.   As people posted, you get IH and then you respec.   Before that point, /Regen was really bad if not terrible.   I specifically remember the developers trying to justify it by saying some sets are good early and bad late and some are the opposite.   But Issue 1 /Regen was broken and they knew it...which is why they fixed it.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

It plays so much differently than other sets that I think most players would just prefer to take a set that allows you to softcap defense and steamroll.

This.  /Regen requires active management.  A lot of players think its suppose to survive on just +Regen and it doesn't.  The correct timing of using Recon and DP are crucial to winning with the set.

 

11 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

I feel the regen set wasnt forgiving enough for what I know of the game and my style of play.

That's definitely true once you start getting to +2's and higher.   /Regen requires a lot more driving than other sets, but the reward is dramatically better up time.  But if you're bankrolling a toon and running Set IOs, particularly ones that solve endurance issues, then /Regen starts to get passed by the +DEF/+RES sets.

 

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I honestly can't think of any Scrapper secondary that would literally get 95% of its mitigation from pool powers.

That's because you're not understanding how the stacking math works.  When you're at 44% +DEF, that last 1% +DEF you might get from Stealth or Combat Jumping, is doubling your survival time.   That's right, doubling the time it takes for you to be defeated.  Every additional point of +DEF or +RES is more beneficial than the last.  Now, it's not quite that good when you're fighting +Xs becuase their accuracy floor is above 5%.  I think +4 AVs hit me at like 10-11%.   But /SR going from the 30% +DEF to 45% +DEF from Pools and Set IO bonuses is giving you more survivability than all your secondary powers combined.   Granted, its bcause you're starting at 30%.  So this is only true from +DEF/+RES sets that are high enough that they can get to the cap.   

 

 

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I solo +3/x8 on a Scrapper build comfortably enough to where I could easily do it at +4. I don't use Barrier or Shadow Meld. Brutes don't even get Shadow Meld.

Perfect.  Turn off your pool powers, incarnates, and run a mission where you disable your Set IO bonuses and don't use any inspirations.   Tell us how you do.  Then you'll see how critical that off-set mitigation is.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Without_Pause]

15 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

lThat's because you're not understanding how the stacking math works.  I'l put to you like this.  When you're at 44% +DEF, that last 1% +DEF you might get from Stealth or Combat Jumping, is doubling your survival time.   That's right, doubling the time it takes for you to be defeated.  Now, it's not quite that good when you're fighting +Xs becuase their accuracy floor is above 5%.  I think +4 AVs hit me at like 10-11%.   But /SR going from the 30% +DEF to 45% +DEF from Pools and Set IO bonuses is giving you more survivability than all your secondary powers combined.   Granted, its bcause you're starting at 30%.  So this is only true from +DEF/+RES sets that are high enough that they can get to the cap.   

 

 

Perfect.  Turn off your pool powers, incarnates, and run a mission where you disable your Set IO bonuses and don't use any inspirations.   Tell us how you do.  Then you'll see how critical that off-set mitigation is.

If I go from 1% to 2%, then I am doubling my survival rate. That's how Math actually works. If I'm going from 44% to 45%, then I am adding 2% more mitigation because again, that's literally how Math works.

 

How about you hop on that Regen Scrapper and you go first? Wait, you don't want to deal with x8 mobs on a Regen Scrapper with just SOs and no pool powers. Why I... People's point is simply that if you dump everything you can into Regen, then it still will end up lacking compared to other sets which you seem to be ignoring as much as possible. Again, Regen is perfectly fine for normal play.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Have done so many times, most people think it's OK but too clicky.  I have given people tips on how to make it less so.  Usually this is when I'm playing my Brute and people are surprised that I'm not dying.   No one is saying that Regen is some godlike set that stands above all others.  As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that, and frankly even going back to Issue 1 it wasn't that.   But likewise, no one I have interacted with has said that Regen is this terrible set that has no value.

 

Regen's issues have been debated ad nauseum in this thread, so I won't rehash.   I'll just reiterate my point.  Regen is...fine.  Not good, not bad, just fine.  It plays so much differently than other sets that I think most players would just prefer to take a set that allows you to softcap defense and steamroll.  Hell, I personally enjoy that too.  I'm a big fan of Ninjitsu and Energy Aura for that reason.  

 

I can respect that.

[Blackjoy]

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

If I go from 1% to 2%, then I am doubling my survival rate. That's how Math actually works. If I'm going from 44% to 45%, then I am adding 2% more mitigation because again, that's literally how Math works.

That's not how the mitigation calculations work.   IIRC, your actual +DEF calc is 100 - (50%+ (your +DEF)).   The number is capped at 95% so that's why getting 45% +DEF is the "soft cap."   So think of it like this.  If you have 40% +DEF.  10% of the damage is getting through.  When you add 5% more +DEF, you've reduced the incoming damage to by half.  This doubles your survival time.   

 

In other words, stacking +DEF is what matters.  Adding the same 5% of +DEF to a set at 0% +DEF and a set that has 40% +DEF has dramatically different impact on survivability, despite its the same flat 5%.

 

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

People's point is simply that if you dump everything you can into Regen, then it still will end up lacking compared to other sets which you seem to be ignoring as much as possible.

I'm not ignoring that at all.  But the statement is fundamentally flawed.  "Dumping" stuff into /Regen is not a reflection of /Regen, it's a reflection of the unbalanced benefits of stacking +DEF/+RES.   It's also a statement that essentially requires that you're at level 50 and have infinite funds to dump into.   The game was NOT designed at level 50.  It was designed from level 1-50.   The sets weren't designed to solo 4x8.  They were designed to do +0x1....and probably expecting it to go to +2x1 by level 50.   /Regen crushes those requirements.   /Regen is better than "fine" leveling.  It's excellent.  

 

What /Regen cannot do is consistently solo 4x8 for the same effort investment that a +DEF/+RES set can.  That is not a failing of /Regen, it's failing of the developers for putting so much  +DEF and +RES in the pools.   That doesn't mean /Regen isn't balanced or that its trash.  The standard for scrappers is not, "can you solo 4x8".

 

I've run ITF at 50 with my non-Set IO, non-Power pools, non Incarnate Savage/Regen scrapper and he had no trouble surviving on a team.  I didn't have a single death during ITF.   But then I'm not trying to run-off and solo spawns....which I can do on my /SR.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Without_Pause]

'Infinite funds' is like 500 mill. Getting that level of mitigation isn't THAT difficult. I have self funded level 30 characters fully IOed out and 500 mill sitting. Hell, @Yomo Kimyatawill send anyone a one time 100 mill for anyone who sends them a DM in game. 

[Without_Pause]

24 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

That's not how the mitigation calculations work.   IIRC, your actual +DEF calc is 100 - (50%+ (your +DEF)).   The number is capped at 95% so that's why getting 45% +DEF is the "soft cap."   So think of it like this.  If you have 40% +DEF.  10% of the damage is getting through.  When you add 5% more +DEF, you've reduced the incoming damage to by half.  This doubles your survival time. 

It doubles your remaining survival rate. It does not double your total survival rate.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

Before /Regen's first nerf, the stories are true.  Once you got Instant Healing at like 28, which was a toggle, /Regen was essentially unkillable after the alpha.   As people posted, you get IH and then you respec.   Before that point, /Regen was really bad if not terrible.   I specifically remember the developers trying to justify it by saying some sets are good early and bad late and some are the opposite.   But Issue 1 /Regen was broken and they knew it...which is why they fixed it.

 

Ironically, Instant Healing was so good that people actually ignored how good the rest of the set was.  IIRC, Integration used to be a 400% regen buff at launch.  That's literally the same value that Regen gets with slotting now outside of Instant Healing.  And you could slot from there.  It's just that Instant Healing being a 1000% Regen buff (enhanceable to 3000%) was loony toons broken.  

 

As for being unkillable, it was darn near immortal, but getting Dull Pain as close to permanent as possible was essential to that.  There were absolutely enemies and mobs that could one-shot a Scrapper pre-HP accolades and Dull Pain.  Taking Tough to shave off some damage was also helpful with that.  Taking Stamina and give it and Quick Recovery SIX slots so you had enough endurance to attack was essential.  In other words, just like today, you had to add things outside of the set to make it immortal.  It required a very specific and restricting build, Stamina wasn't inherent then.  

 

This is why I think there's no real fix that will make folks that don't like Regen happy.  As you stated, stacking Resistance/Defense is just not something that Regen will ever be able to do to the same extent that the other sets will absent a complete rework of the set.   Even if we gave Regen back toggle Instant Healing at the same numbers that it is at as a click now AND gave it 100% regeneration debuff resistance, it would still not match sets that can softcap defense, have a decent amount of resistance behind that, and has a heal (looking at you Ninjitsu, Invul, EA, etc.).

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Psi-bolt
Adding context to Integration comment

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Ironically, Instant Healing was so good that people actually ignored how good the rest of the set was.  IIRC, Integration used to be a 400% regen buff at launch.  That's literally the same value that Regen gets with slotting now outside of Instant Healing.  And you could slot from there.  It's just that Instant Healing being a 1000% Regen buff (enhanceable to 3000%) was loony toons broken.  

 

As for being unkillable, it was darn near immortal, but getting Dull Pain as close to permanent as possible was essential to that.  There were absolutely enemies and mobs that could one-shot a Scrapper pre-HP accolades and Dull Pain.  Taking Tough to shave off some damage was also helpful with that.  Taking Stamina and give it and Quick Recovery SIX slots so you had enough endurance to attack was essential.  In other words, just like today, you had to add things outside of the set to make it immortal.  It required a very specific and restricting build, Stamina wasn't inherent then.  

 

This is why I think there's no real fix that will make folks that don't like Regen happy.  As you stated, stacking Resistance/Defense is just not something that Regen will ever be able to do to the same extent that the other sets will absent a complete rework of the set.   Even if we gave Regen back toggle Instant Healing at the same numbers that it is at as a click now AND gave it 100% regeneration debuff resistance, it would still not match sets that can softcap defense, have a decent amount of resistance behind that, and has a heal (looking at you Ninjitsu, Invul, EA, etc.).

 

 

 

For the record, I never built my Regen to those extremes back in those days. I built mine like a newb, not like somebody who was min/maxing. Just for the record, even though that's extremely irrelevant.

[Yomo Kimyata]

22 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

This is why I think there's no real fix that will make folks that don't like Regen happy. 

 

I think I agree with this.  Lots of people look at something that has a different playstyle and say, "This sucks, make it more like what I already know and like!"  Case in point:  Mind Controllers.

 

As always, if you don't like something, don't play it!  But as time goes by you may be surprised that what you like may change.

[Without_Pause]

The number one reason why I rerolled my Claws/regen on Live to Claws/wp here was due to the lack of clicks. Even as a player of Kins, I got tired of the clicking. Regen needs debuff protection from -Regen, -Recharge, and -Recovery. If SR gets so much DDR to protect against its primary source of mitigation, then Regen should get equal treatment. They are both essentially one trick ponies. 

[Blackjoy]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

It doubles your remaining survival rate. It does not double your total survival rate.

No, it doubles your total survival time.  That's what happens when you cut the total incoming damage in half: you survive twice as long.  When /SR, at 2% incoming below the cap...can ad another 1% +DEF from a Set IO bonus....you're dramatically increasing its survival time where that same 1% bonus for /Regen is unnoticeable.   Go get a spread sheet and set up the calcs.  I've done it.  It's very illuminating and educational on how OP stacking +DEF is.  +RES is almost as good, except the cap for scrappers is a lot lower.

 

I've also seen this in action.  About a year ago, recruited people to try out some specific encounters.   I recall a Katana/SR that survived one such encounter.  I had her turn off Tough....no change in outcome.  Then I had her put Tough back on and turn off Weave.   She died in like 15 seconds. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Without_Pause]

12 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

No, it doubles your total survival time.  That's what happens when you cut the total incoming damage in half: you survive twice as long.  When /SR, at 2% incoming below the cap...can ad another 1% +DEF from a Set IO bonus....you're dramatically increasing its survival time where that same 1% bonus for /Regen is unnoticeable.   Go get a spread sheet and set up the calcs.  I've done it.  It's very illuminating and educational on how OP stacking +DEF is.  +RES is almost as good, except the cap for scrappers is a lot lower.

 

I've also seen this in action.  About a year ago, recruited people to try out some specific encounters.   I recall a Katana/SR that survived one such encounter.  I had her turn off Tough....no change in outcome.  Then I had her put Tough back on and turn off Weave.   She died in like 15 seconds. 

As someone who studied to me a Math teacher, no I'm not wasting my time in a spreadsheet.

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I think I agree with this.  Lots of people look at something that has a different playstyle and say, "This sucks, make it more like what I already know and like!"  Case in point:  Mind Controllers.

 

As always, if you don't like something, don't play it!  But as time goes by you may be surprised that what you like may change.

 

Not really, the problem is, we know how it used to perform and we know how it performs today. I never built it up so crazy like people are saying. I didn't six slot Integration and Instant Healing the way some folks on these boards are talking about. It still performed well. I was not unkillable, but I could sure as hell handle my own. So when I compare the set to what it was as somebody who did not min/max the set and then see how it performs today, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. So having said that, I disagree with the statement you have quoted and your support of it, I don't think reasonable changes could make the set very unlikeable for at least myself. The set has under-performed next to all other sets ever since it got nerfed. Here we are, 18 years later and it has never moved from the bottom tier. Some of us would just like to see that changed. It's long overdue and it has been the bottom tier for long enough.

 

The set wasn't balanced, it was punished. It received a life sentence when the crime only required a year or less jail time. It's Time to Set Regen Free!

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Solarverse

[Enchantica]

Yeah, regen sucks. Instant heal should still be an always on toggle.  I think it would be super funny IF Instant heal did not allow you to die.  Imagine you reach zero health fall down and whatever negative health you had would have to be regained but when you did you stand back up.  In pvp ppl would just keep stomping on your head over and over to keep you "dead". The more "Dead" you became additional animations would show you becoming more and more dismembered then the limbs slowly regenerating.  

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, Enchantica said:

Yeah, regen sucks. Instant heal should still be an always on toggle.  I think it would be super funny IF Instant heal did not allow you to die.  Imagine you reach zero health fall down and whatever negative health you had would have to be regained but when you did you stand back up.  In pvp ppl would just keep stomping on your head over and over to keep you "dead". The more "Dead" you became additional animations would show you becoming more and more dismembered then the limbs slowly regenerating.  

 

This is a Superhero MMO, not a horror movie!

[Snarky]

I can offer you a very non clicky defense set that works much better than Regen, and is easier to slot (and use)  Invulnerability.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...