Ignore Dual Blades combo system?

[pawstruck]

Hey guys, Croax's guide has a brief mention of DB only being good if you completely ignore the combo system. I've been playing my DB using the combo system and I quite like it, but is it somehow a DPS loss? Are there ANY of the combos worth using? I don't have a ridiculous amount of recharge yet, but I sure feel like I'm kicking ass... lol. Should I just spam the heavy attacks and ignore the combos?

[SwitchFade]

This has been asked a few times so I'll reply here, but also search some.

 

DB stalker works best with very high recharge, 170%+

 

If you do that, your attach chain is BU>assy strike>ablating>sweep>power slice, repeat from assy strike when BU is recharging. 4 attacks only.

 

The combos are built in to that chain, that's all you need.

 

If you min/max DB, you can get to 600+ DPS, it's a beast.

[pawstruck]

That's crazy.

 

Skip the cones, then, even for big packs of mobs?

[twozerofoxtrot]

27 minutes ago, pawstruck said:

Skip the cones, then, even for big packs of mobs?

 

No, sweeping strike is part of the chain SwitchFade laid out.

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, pawstruck said:

That's crazy.

 

Skip the cones, then, even for big packs of mobs?

As 20F said, the cone is built into the chain, and when you use BU, there's a second AOE combo built in to ablating.

 

Make sure you put the stalkers guile ATO in assy strike for the chance to rehide and crit on ablating; put assassin's mark ATO in any of the other 3 attacks, I have it in power slice, but it doesn't matter, the chance to insta recharge BU is global. Slot the ATO as soon as you can, you should have your assy strike 6 slotted by lvl 11 and have the whole stalkers guile set in there by lvl 11.

 

You should have the assassin's mark ATO slotted by lvl 18-23 latest, all 6 in an attack.

 

Get the panacea proc +HP/end in health right away.

 

The rest... Depends on secondary and Mids fun.

[Without_Pause]

For secondaries, you want to look for ones which offer +Recharge to help hit the needed recharge. DB doesn't offer much in mitigation so sturdier secondaries would work better. Thankfully those are the ones which offer the +Recharge.

[Kaika]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:12 PM, SwitchFade said:

This has been asked a few times so I'll reply here, but also search some.

 

DB stalker works best with very high recharge, 170%+

 

If you do that, your attach chain is BU>assy strike>ablating>sweep>power slice, repeat from assy strike when BU is recharging. 4 attacks only.

 

The combos are built in to that chain, that's all you need.

 

If you min/max DB, you can get to 600+ DPS, it's a beast.

Just to correct this you can actually do better with a little more recharge

 

BU> Assassin's Blades> Ablating strikes > Sweeping strike > Ablating strikes again

 

No Power slice needed as Ablating strikes does almost twice the DPA and insures that Archlies heel proc has max uptime

[...]

46 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

Just to correct this you can actually do better with a little more recharge

 

BU> Assassin's Blades> Ablating strikes > Sweeping strike > Ablating strikes again

 

No Power slice needed as Ablating strikes does almost twice the DPA and insures that Archlies heel proc has max uptime

 

This is the way. 

[SwitchFade]

7 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

Just to correct this you can actually do better with a little more recharge

 

BU> Assassin's Blades> Ablating strikes > Sweeping strike > Ablating strikes again

 

No Power slice needed as Ablating strikes does almost twice the DPA and insures that Archlies heel proc has max uptime

Well... While technically true, IF you can get over 195-200% recharge, the sacrifices one would have to make to the build in terms of survivability by trading set bonuses would make for a considerable less durable stalker. I've spent countless hours on DB on all ATs and have 4 of them on stalker alone 

 

My DB stalkers have 180-185% recharge and using the chain you mentioned of assy strike>ablating>sweep>ablating, there is a .7 second delay between sweep and the second ablating and then a .9 second delay between the second ablating and going back to assy strike. I have play tested this chain as well as others thoroughly.

 

The chain I posted has no delays, completely fluid; by switching the chain to swap out power slice for ablating may mean that one attack has more damage, it slows down the whole chain considerably, resulting in less actual DPS.

 

I have in the past tested a 200+% recharge  build necessary to close the delay gaps and make the attack chain you mentioned fluid and the it has marked sacrifices in survivability. I only recommend this build when someone plays on teams exclusively.

 

To get a fluid attack chain, the best survivability and extremely high DPS, the chain I posted is optimal because trying to get over 180% recharge causes an extreme dip in survivability for a modest dose increase and also makes most builds not able to exemp well.

[Kaika]

52 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Well... While technically true, IF you can get over 195-200% recharge, the sacrifices one would have to make to the build in terms of survivability by trading set bonuses would make for a considerable less durable stalker. I've spent countless hours on DB on all ATs and have 4 of them on stalker alone 

 

My DB stalkers have 180-185% recharge and using the chain you mentioned of assy strike>ablating>sweep>ablating, there is a .7 second delay between sweep and the second ablating and then a .9 second delay between the second ablating and going back to assy strike. I have play tested this chain as well as others thoroughly.

 

The chain I posted has no delays, completely fluid; by switching the chain to swap out power slice for ablating may mean that one attack has more damage, it slows down the whole chain considerably, resulting in less actual DPS.

 

I have in the past tested a 200+% recharge  build necessary to close the delay gaps and make the attack chain you mentioned fluid and the it has marked sacrifices in survivability. I only recommend this build when someone plays on teams exclusively.

 

To get a fluid attack chain, the best survivability and extremely high DPS, the chain I posted is optimal because trying to get over 180% recharge causes an extreme dip in survivability for a modest dose increase and also makes most builds not able to exemp well.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "extreme dip in survivability". First of all that's EXTREMELY build dependant. I personally I never had  issue managing that, all of my stalkers are capable of 4x8 with most if not all groups, and usually have around %190 recharge and at least S/L def at 45%, its very doable without a "extreme dip in survivability".

 

So, yes, the rotation is not air tight, but it's no were near 0.7 seconds, not in my experience at least. I think you might be forgetting to include ArcanaTime or did not have Albating strike enhanced for recharge? In practice in  it's closer to a 0.1-2 second delay and after Assassin's Blades, when you repeat the rotation, at least on my character, there is no delay after sweep. This does cut into your DPS a little bit but much less then Power Slice would. Even if that were the case then, Zapp or Moonbeam would be FAR better choices, even with the loss of a assassin's focus as they do over twice the DPA.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Clave Dark 5]

Eh, play what you want, have fun with the combos if you like them.  I did and that was one toon I took to 50 back on Live.

[SwitchFade]

6 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "extreme dip in survivability". First of all that's EXTREMELY build dependant. I personally I never had  issue managing that, all of my stalkers are capable of 4x8 with most if not all groups, and usually have around %190 recharge and at least S/L def at 45%, its very doable without a "extreme dip in survivability".

 

So, yes, the rotation is not air tight, but it's no were near 0.7 seconds, not in my experience at least. I think you might be forgetting to include ArcanaTime or did not consider Albating strike enhanced? In practice in  it's closer to a 0.1-2 second delay and after Assassin's Blades, when you repeat the rotation, at least on my character, there is no delay after sweep. This does cut into your DPS a little bit but much less then Power Slice would. Even if that were the case then, Zapp or Moonbeam would be FAR better choices, even with the loss of a assassin's focus as they do over twice the DPA.

"At least s/l def at 45%" is the proof, that's a dramatic dip in survivability when compared to a build that has 55-60% def to all but psionic and resists at 50% as well and can handle multiple AVs or GMs solo.

 

The survivability you're talking about couldn't solo lusca tentacles, which mine can, without Insps, temps or summons.

 

And the stated gaps in the chain are accurate, I times it just before posting.

 

The attack chains you propose would result in a loss of DPS and survivability 

Edited October 19, 2023 by SwitchFade

[Kaika]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

"At least s/l def at 45%" is the proof, that's a dramatic dip in survivability when compared to a build that has 55-60% def to all but psionic and resists at 50% as well and can handle multiple AVs or GMs solo.

 

The survivability you're talking about couldn't solo lusca tentacles, which mine can, without Insps, temps or summons.

I have literally done both those things, no idea why you are going to 55%-60% on a stalker anyways, that massive overkill.

[FupDup]

Depending on the armor set and what kind of content they're going up against, pushing over 45% can be useful as either a buffer against defense debuffs or for getting closer to the incarnate softcap of 58.75%. If we're on a set like Invuln there's no reason to go over 45% (and can even get away with lower), but for something more defense-focused it could have value if you're doing harder content than PI council farms and are doing it solo (no teammates to draw aggro or buff you). 

[Amareth]

Less talk and more giving me a DB/EA stalker build 😉

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

I have literally done both those things, no idea why you are going to 55%-60% on a stalker anyways, that massive overkill.

Respectfully, you may think the build you are referencing is durable, but I'm just letting you know it may be great, but it is much less sturdy than what I am discussing. 55+% defense is absolutely necessary for incarnate content and defense debuffing.

 

As you have mentioned you have fought many factions, you're aware that defense debuffing is very prevalent and most stalker secondaries do not offer significant DDR, which means any debuff when one is at 45% def will cascade rapidly.

 

Further, with the defense updates, 45% to S/L is no longer a coverall for typed defense, especially late game.

 

I'm not saying your builds aren't great, I am sure they are, but we don't know what we don't know, and until you actually see what the next level is that you weren't aware of, you may not have perspective. Not an insult, but just normal, it happens to all of us.

 

All I'm saying is, using that attack chain you propose is great, but trying to use it to significantly increase DPS necessitates 3 trade offs if you want to push recharge above 200% to do so,

 

1. You WILL sacrifice a large amount of survivability

2. You will sacrifice the ability to maintain the same level of survivability and DPS when exemping below lvl 35

3.  You will be more dependent on temps, Insps, teammates, incarnates, etc

 

Not pushing recharge above 200% will then make the attack chain have gaps, which lowers the DPS to the point that the DPS is actually less in any fight lasting over 70 seconds, because of the delays.

 

Either way, you sacrifice more than you gain.

[StrikerFox]

Awhile ago, I made a build in Beta that could run [BU]-AS-Abl-SS-Abl-repeat seamlessly paired with SR. Built hard for +recharge. Ablating recharged in 1.28secs, had +121% recharge slotted in the power (With Agility Radial Alpha) and +247.5% recharge bonuses from Quickness, Hasten and IOs slotting. Hasten was perma with no IO slotted in it.

 

It was actually fast enough that Moonbeam recharged in 5.1secs, so it could be integrated into the chain. [BU]-AS-Mb-Abl-SS-Abl-repeat.

 

The build wasn't great. All it had was softcap positional defense and a heal. Everything else was non existent, even DDR was on the low side for an /SR build. +65% or so. Damaged seemed good but felt like an overall dps loss due to lack of damage procs. Also because Musculature was skipped in favor of Agility.

 

For anyone interested, here's the build. There are probably a few ways to improve it without losing the +recharge. 

 

Stalker - DB SR 4B.mbd

[High_Beam]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:51 PM, pawstruck said:

That's crazy.

 

Skip the cones, then, even for big packs of mobs?

But he says he likes your cones.

 

[00Troy00]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:12 PM, SwitchFade said:

This has been asked a few times so I'll reply here, but also search some.

 

DB stalker works best with very high recharge, 170%+

 

If you do that, your attach chain is BU>assy strike>ablating>sweep>power slice, repeat from assy strike when BU is recharging. 4 attacks only.

 

The combos are built in to that chain, that's all you need.

 

If you min/max DB, you can get to 600+ DPS, it's a beast.

2 questions:

1.How does that 600 DPS compare to Claws?

2.How much more would that same attack chain net on a Scrapper?

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

2 questions:

1.How does that 600 DPS compare to Claws?

2.How much more would that same attack chain net on a Scrapper?

Claws is lower

 

Scrapper DPS is also lower

[Without_Pause]

Granted, Claws is still tied for 6th as a Scrapper based on a sample of Pylons testing for however much that matters. I've done a couple DB characters and they never last. Claws is just so much smoother of a experience.

 

EDIT: I'm talking non-Stalker experience. I refuse to play Stalker's version of Claws.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Without_Pause

[carroto]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:55 AM, Without_Pause said:

I refuse to play Stalker's version of Claws.

 

Ditto.  Eviscerate.