A possible solution to the kheldian revamp

[tidge]

I agree, and probably wrote (somewhere) that I don't think "more enhancement slots for Kheldians" is the answer. I see a bigger obstacle being this: even if I lean hard into one (or two) of the different forms (via dedicating slots), I'm pretty much stuck with playing a pretty mediocre whatever (Blaster, Tanker). VEATs don't leave me with this feeling, because even with a "second" set of primary/secondaries, I can tailor those VEAT builds... I'm not "stuck" with either the powers from the baseline or from the chosen path... but with HEATs I pretty much get the powers from the other forms, and there is no real tailoring of a build... except possibly in human-form-dominant play... but that choice is sacrificing what make the HEATs unique.

 

 

 

[arkieboy72472]

In my mind, the easiest changes to implement would be 1) a damage buff and 2) removal of Knockback as a secondary effect and the addition of something else (like -Resist, -Regen, -Recharge, -ToHit.) Another easy implementation is a buff to the AT effect for teams.

 

After thinking about everything, we don't need extra enhancement slots. We don't need access to a special epic AT. We don't need some huge revamp. We already get travel powers inherently. While they can slightly tweak things here and there, I think all we really need is a little buff. We should not have to rely on incarnates, IO Sets, Procs, and Uniques. 

 

It is my belief that all archetypes and power sets should be written without IO set bonuses, Procs, and Uniques in mind. You can definitely tell which have and which haven't. 

[Good Gentleman]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:38 PM, CaptainMarvelous said:

As someone who has been leveling a PB and trying out some builds, I'm thoroughly...whelmed. 

 

I think the core problem comes down to a few things:

• Kheldians are slot hungry yet slot starved, not to mention how many powers need or greatly benefit from a KB -> KD conversion
• Kheldians don't actually have that many useful abilities  to do rotations, necessitating outside propping up via Power Pools (Cross Punch my hated enemy)
• Kheldians are propped up by a handful of REALLY GOOD ABILITIES conversely (Light/Umbral Form, for example.)
• One form usually gets left in the dust due to cosmic balance for PBs unless you have a truly balanced team comp. 
• Kheldians need a lot of meta knowledge and focus to do what other classes can do minimally.

But I think if we gotta nail one thing: It's that the reward for a fully built kheldian isn't as high as it should be. Due to the triform, the requirements for perma-light/umbral form, the gameplay knowledge and skill to play one effectively, your reward is...a decent to slightly above average character. Which sucks. If I am putting in all this effort to learn PB/WS, fighting for my life, dumping millions to get enhancements, why am I still one of the worst ATs int he game? Worse yet, why is it that the tanker who is going full UNGA in gameplay mashing buttons without rhyme or reason is still getting better results?

 

There's a few possible non-buff solutions you can do, but I can think of a few ideas. Note that I'm not a balance expert so these are just cool ideas:

• Make the Kheldian form shifting bonus from the enhancement set inherent: This I think could really help hammer home the AT's strength as a stance-swapper. If you're encouraged at a baseline to swap forms? That'd be great and make there be more value in constantly swapping forms. As for the enhancement, you could buff it further and/or give it an additional benefit for swapping.
• Bonus Enhance Slots for forms only: Say every...~10 levels or so, you get an extra 5 slots. But these slots can ONLY be used for your transformations. Roughly this means by lvl 50 you essentially get an extra 25 slots but the key is they only go into your forms. Considering forms come with a handful of abilities, you'll have to pick-and-choose what gets upgraded. If it's too strong, you can also negate normal slots from going there. 
• A potential transformation "power": Currently when you transform, you just become the thing you're transforming into. What could potentially serve as a cool "power" is that when you turn into one form, you perform some kind of effect. Maybe Dwarf gains a surge of absorption, maybe Squid gets an explosive burst of "get off me". It'd need a longer CD to compensate but it'd feel a bit better in transforming. 
• Human Ability replaces Form ability if Stronger: Might be a coding nightmare, but if I've 6-slotted maxed out my eye beam, why am I using my squid's piddly baby form eye-beam? 
• Enhancement AT Sets for Kheldian Forms?: Would further make them an expensive AT to kit out, but it would be cool if there was a set specific to Dwarf/Nova form that functioned like a PVP set where you get minor bonuses when you slot them, but a huge bonus when you're -in- that respective form.
• Enable some Pool usage in forms?: Though I listed my disdain for it above, it's weird that I completely forget how to throw a haymaker when I turn into a dwarf or how I can no longer lead my team when I turn into nova form.

 

Anyways, I think Kheldians have a really interesting niche as a transforming AT but currently it feels like the reward for doing so isn't really worth the time, effort and IP sink to make them competitive. Not to mention it feels like many of the best benefits of the AT are not from the kit itself but by using 50% of your kit and supplementing the other 50% with outside sources. I'm sure not all the above suggestions are GREAT or perhaps even good, but I feel there's real value into digging deeper than just a flat bonus to kheldian abilities and removing KB from them. 

 

I really like these ideas. Slotting would be less punishing.

 

Could make the Light Form or Sunless Mire inherit abilities. PB could have a bar that builds up as they fight, while WS could have one that builds as they absorb bodies. When the bar fills, they can activate their 'superform' power (much like Dominator). Give a reasonable cooldown once the effect wears off.

[TheSpiritFox]

On 1/25/2024 at 1:12 PM, Wispur said:

I *really* want to see Changeling nuked from orbit.
The whole point of Changeling is to glitch the forms so fast that you effectively don't even use the forms.
And that destroys the entire point of Kheldians being the shapeshifter AT.

Kheldians *should* be using their forms, as forms.
And to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with switching between forms constantly, every few powers or so. (this is my preference)
I'm also perfectly fine with having us stay in forms for a bit longer for specific tasks.
Whatever they choose, I can roll with it.

I'm just *really* not ok with the "best" way to play the AT being to basically ignore the forms and glitch through them.
Even if they made that "glitch" a doubleclick feature, I'd be opposed to it.
It destroys the whole point of being a shapeshifter in the first place.

So... nuke Changeling, and don't look back.

(And yes, it prob goes without saying, but if they're gonna get rid of Changeling (and they should) we'll need buffs to compensate.)

This. This this this this this. 

The problem with the AT is that it doesn't scale well into end game. Changeling is annoying as fucking hell and is *broken*. Its breaking the animation system on purpose to get more DPS than you should be able to get out of the class as its designed. 

The problem is the design is bad. PB and WS fall off in damage at high levels severely. The base damage is too low at high levels, the damage bonus is far too low with the inherent its possible to damage cap yourself and thus not be able to even benefit from things like Fulcrum Shift. Nuke Changeling, buff later game damage in and out of forms, buff damage bonus cap significantly (200% or more for both PB and WS). 

 

Probably to nuke changeling we need to lock the form we're in until the power activation finishes. You know you can switch to a form for an attack just like now, but you dont switch back until the power animation finishes. So you see the full attack animation in dwarf or nova or human, and then poof into another form after. Its just, the damage that we do at high levels is fucking stupid. Hitting for 100 damage per attack and shit. PB in particular, if played as intended, has some of the lowest single target damage in the game at 50.

[Digirium]

No, adding more enhancement slots to Kheldians is not an answer.

 

Kheldians are offered a choice from a lot of powers leading to a compromise of how enhancement slots are allocated to make the best build according to your ideas. What would actually happen is the Hurf-Durf Lords would mindlessly fill those extra enhancement slots with damage procs instead of making any attempt to develop a set-based build. Anyway, being able to add more set boni in a proper build does not answer the Kheldian problem.

 

For me, the simplest idea for any revamp to address Kheldian problem is:

• Making certain human-form powers in primary/secondary available to nova and/or dwarf forms without cross-shifting forms to access them
• Making certain power pool powers and toggles available to all three forms (f.ex Hasten, Maneuvers)
• Add +DEF (may be instead of +RES) in the cosmic balance power

I agree Kheldians were never intended to be rapid form-changing changelings.

[Octogoat]

I enjoy my kheldian for pure style but I wouldn't thumb my nose at /any/ buffs. Changeling confuses me ATM even with guides so I triform.

[string5]

I am late to this thread but I would like to chime in.

 

PEACEBRINGER

Shelved my long time badge toon (fire/fire/blaster) and shelved almost all of my alts to play changeling PB full time.  I am a convert for sure.

I don't have much to say on PBs other than I love the changeling build.  The look and feel really plays nicely with my head cannon.  Button mashing is there, but there is a smooth and fun rythem to it.  So it looks like changeling will be killed :( but I do have a small number of requests on PB. 

Things I would like kept:

• Hit points and general tankyness across forms - I think it is ok that I have to go to Dwarf to un-mezz but if you make it carry across forms than that is great
• Overall damage equal output compared to changeling proc'd build.  It would be great to have the proc output without having to sacrifice so many, 7-8  set bonuses to get it.

I saw comments with a Sentinel comparison.  If Sentys were this fun I would play them all the time.  IMO a PB does everything a Senty can do but better and with more freedom.

I think it is also fair that if we want to "optimize" different parts of the games, we can do so with select_build and I do this with many of my favorite toons.

 

One small change I would like for both builds...flying in dwarf is slow compared to human enhanced flight.  I would also prefer the built in control aspects of flying when you have hover or something similar on while flight is engaged.

 

WARSHADE

I really really really want to main WS, but I don't, as it is too unpredictable and situational in endgame.  I love the concept, the lore, the look and the anti-hero vibe.  It is a good toon to level, but after you reach engame the new-world playstyle of homecoming (which I love on all other toons) makes me rage-quit.

Back on Live, especially earlier Live,  WS was my choice over PB.  The groups moved slower and there were plenty of foes to buff on.  This is well suited for WS mechanics.

 

In order for me to main a toon, it needs to be fun and viable in endgame and here are my issues, playing engame WS.

• Teams move so quickly now, when I buff/heal/eclipse the mobs I need are already dead before I can ready my attack chain.  For buffs that need deads, if I stop to get them the party races by and I can never catch up to properly contribute.  If some one announces LFG "speed run", my options are very limited and you are just along for the ride to get some good drops. 
• Much of endgame is spent burning down AVs, which means I lose the majority of buffs and heals, making the toon way too vulnerable unfun, especially if you are out of position or do not make the required hit check
• To many clicks, even more than PB and All I get from it is a higher damage bonus that I may already get from a Kin in the group 
• When you need or want to solo the toon becomes too vulnerable
• With today's rapid gameplay you have to waste way too many slots and an alpha on end.  Eclipse and stygian can be way to vulnerable
• All in all WS gameplay and tactics are too situational and it only shines vs PB in a small number of carefully curated situations

 

When I ask myself, what am I getting when I play WS over PB, other than the self-rp aspect of the dark toon, what am I really getting that a PB cannot do better in almost every situation.  I think if you can come up with a clear way to distinguish meaningful positive differences  between WS and PB that would be a huge win. To throw a couple of things out there,  Perhaps a higher damage cap and slightly lower (but predictable) resistances for WS.  Perhaps WS could be +def not + resist (although this would cause people to have to purchase new IOs.

 

HOW I TEST MY TOONS

Like many others, some time after I reach 50 I focus on accolades.  For Portal Jockey, I always solo run the "Hero's Epic" arc, varying the difficulty and number of foes as I go, and 9 times out of 10 this is all I need to know about my toon's long term viability and fun.  There is a night and day difference between PB and WS, where PB is one of the best I have ever played on that arch.  The Mayhem mission badge run from Lord Schnitzelwierhamburg is also a good indicator as it varies mobs and character levels. 

 

Thanks for all the great work and for opening up this discussion.

...and thanks for bringing the gamer back.  I can't tell you how happy it makes me to continue playing CoH.

 

-Orion Midnight

 

Edited October 29 by string5

[Black_Assassin]

2 hours ago, string5 said:

Snipped for brevity

 

 

I refuse to play my PB too much because I want to love my WS (despite how much it frustrates me for all the same reasons you mentioned). The concept of feeding off death is so cool, but the resulting feast and famine gameplay can get wearing at times.

 

 

[hieronymusboss]

...I main a Tri-Form Warshade and love it. Don't touch it, I say - unless you're gonna make it better. Though I don't know how to "Changeling", even with my fancy keybinds and so I don't care that it's going away. Just tweak our damage or something. Can always use moar damage. Or gimme some kind of reliable mez/drain effect to offset the lack of murderous damage values.

Warshades use dark energy/matter right? Maybe a built-in slow for some low-key control? Or some end drain, for funzies? Just spitballing. 

But I'll tell you what I need. What I really need is for the Black Dwarf Mire to have a new animation option. Something akin to Foot Stomp or Mighty Judgement. Not a goddamn fart animation. XD

It's been years. They're called Black Dwarves, not Gas Giants. #ENDTHEFLATULENCE

Edited October 30 by hieronymusboss

[tidge]

On 10/22/2024 at 3:55 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

The problem with the AT is that it doesn't scale well into end game. Changeling is annoying as fucking hell and is *broken*. Its breaking the animation system on purpose to get more DPS than you should be able to get out of the class as its designed. 

The problem is the design is bad. PB and WS fall off in damage at high levels severely. The base damage is too low at high levels, the damage bonus is far too low with the inherent its possible to damage cap yourself and thus not be able to even benefit from things like Fulcrum Shift. Nuke Changeling, buff later game damage in and out of forms, buff damage bonus cap significantly (200% or more for both PB and WS).

 

I've highlight the parts of the quote that I agree are the problem with the non-human Kheldian forms (damage output).

 

Yes, changeling cheats allow the use of some other form attacks (presumably only a few that have been slotted 'best'), but the core problem with something like the Nova attacks is that the attacks are basically slightly improved level 4 blasts. Having 4 (or 5) blasts is rather OP for levels 4 through 12, but after about level 16 the offense of the Nova form has fallen behind something like a Blaster... and never really recovers. It is of course possible to invest heavily in ALL the Nova attacks (and exemplar down) but those attacks are always going to be roughly equivalent to T1, T2, T3 attacks.... but with no access to any other powers (modulo changeling).

 

At least the Dwarf form stays tough!

 

The other existing aspect of game balance that reminds me of what the Kheldians face is in the Mastermind AT. The MMs have to have their offense scale, otherwise they'd breeze through low-level content or get stymied at higher levels. I'm not suggesting that Kheldians get "boost powers", but rather than the Nova form get some conditionals (based on level) added to Nova attacks such that a Nova form isn't effectively using only damage-scaled T1/T2/T3 attacks forever.

[TheSpiritFox]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I've highlight the parts of the quote that I agree are the problem with the non-human Kheldian forms (damage output).

 

Yes, changeling cheats allow the use of some other form attacks (presumably only a few that have been slotted 'best'), but the core problem with something like the Nova attacks is that the attacks are basically slightly improved level 4 blasts. Having 4 (or 5) blasts is rather OP for levels 4 through 12, but after about level 16 the offense of the Nova form has fallen behind something like a Blaster... and never really recovers. It is of course possible to invest heavily in ALL the Nova attacks (and exemplar down) but those attacks are always going to be roughly equivalent to T1, T2, T3 attacks.... but with no access to any other powers (modulo changeling).

 

At least the Dwarf form stays tough!

 

The other existing aspect of game balance that reminds me of what the Kheldians face is in the Mastermind AT. The MMs have to have their offense scale, otherwise they'd breeze through low-level content or get stymied at higher levels. I'm not suggesting that Kheldians get "boost powers", but rather than the Nova form get some conditionals (based on level) added to Nova attacks such that a Nova form isn't effectively using only damage-scaled T1/T2/T3 attacks forever.

Just make the power change its scaling based on level. Until 20 they scale like low tier. 20 to 35 they scale like mid tier, 35-50 they scale like high tier. You know make the aoes kinda mini nukes but account for how spammable they are so its like T 7 and 8, not T9 level scaling. 

I sincerely, however, think that the damage bonus limits need a look too. I dont have WS experience, I prefer the more independent paladin-y nature of the PB, but my PB regularly damage caps itself with just a little help from team bonuses. Thats absurd. In most 50 level content fulcrum shift is completely irrelevant to me. That's flat out unfair. Every other AT benefits from it but me. Almost every other power set besides mine loves fulcrum shift. I just cry because now the defender is out damaging me.