Who is a Mastermind?

[ranagrande]

Agent Phil Coulson is a good example of a mastermind hero.

[biostem]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

which characters in the comics would you think is best represented by the Mastermind class?

As @Major_Decoy pointed out, there's no real clear delineation of comic book characters to CoH ATs.  How many comic book characters have powers that only affect their allies, or have to constantly summon and upgrade minions mid-battle?  That being said, I kind of think someone like Soundwave or Blaster from the transformers would be a good match for the MM AT.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I don't see an MM's minions necessarily as pets. Some obviously are, beasts and demons for example, but thugs could very easily be an agglomeration of like-minded individuals grouping around the smartest guy in the room to get the task done.

 

Tarzan and Dr Doolittle could easily be MMs in a sense too.

[BlakeTheDrake]

I think it's worth keeping in mind that 'Petless Masterminds' aren't actually just baseline humans. Sure, they are squishy and weak relative to other metahumans - but they can still shrug off a lot more bullets than I could realistically hope to do, leap fully their own height (without even slotting anything in Bound), run at Olympic-athlete speeds for ages, and will likely possess at least two actual ATTACKS, even if they're not spectacularly powerful. On top of that comes an entire set of support-skills, which may be defensive (enhancing their minions and allies) or offensive (debuffing and hampering their foes.) And that's without getting into whatever they might have taken from the Power Pools, Epic Pools or Patron Pools.

 

Basically, being independently competent - even to a superhuman degree - doesn't disqualify a fictional character from being a CoH-style Mastermind. So I'd say that Dr. Doom, for instance, is a fair example, what with his love of Doom-Bots - when he's able to be a serious threat to, say, The Fantastic Four, in and of himself, it's usually because he's tapped into some external power-source. Ra's Al Ghul, too - sure, he's good with a sword, and I certainly wouldn't want to pick a fight with him even if he didn't have his ninjas on hand, but on his own he's not really a threat to anyone in the Justice League.

 

Of course, none of them act exactly like a CoH Mastermind. That playstyle is, in essence, an interpretation of the comic-book mastermind's fondness for planning, plotting, and sending in waves of minions to do their dirty work. If it had been translated more literally, the MMs would basically have been playing a top-down RTS while everybody else is third-person brawling...

[UltraAlt]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

which characters in the comics would you think is best represented by the Mastermind class?

 

Anyone of them that has minions.

I'm not talking about teammates or side kicks.

 

Sometimes the line blurs for sure.

 

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

so does Doom qualify as a Mastermind?

 

Are you talking about in the comics? Or about trying to create him in the game?

Dr Doom in City of Heroes would be a Supergroup leader from my point of view. Other players would play parts of higher level flunkies and DoomBots. Perhaps Some of those playing DoomBots would be masterminds.

I mean in the old days - no telling what is going on now - he was the ruler of an entire country.

 

 

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

Joker himself isn't especially dangerous on his own

Spoiler

 

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

Red Skull is another who is not a serious threat on his own

 

Captain America was always ripping the "mask" off some body and the "bloody" Red Skull was revealed ... just saying ... SHIELD had a lot of cover-up work to do whenever the Red Skull was revealed.

 

On 2/11/2024 at 3:03 AM, Ultimo said:

What do you guys think?  Who would be a Mastermind?  How would they be built in the game?

 

There is a big difference between who/what is a mastermind in comics, what a mastermind is in CoH, what characters can be made as masterminds in CoH, and what characters that are masterminds in comics can most easily be played as masterminds in CoH.

 

Most Batman villains were historically masterminds with henchmen. 

Lex Luthor historically was portrayed as a minionless mastermind.

 

The "mastermind" is not necessarily linked to the minions in comic books. More so, it is toward the cunning and scheming which often entails the use of followers, hangers on, or paid henchmen/thugs. Being a mastermind is relegated to villains. 

 

In general someone like Nick Fury (Agent of Shield) or Black Hawk wouldn't be considered Masterminds even though they obviously have minions.

I guess Nick Fury really isn't such a good example as he usually ends up going it alone.

 

 

One of the things that typically separates minions from sidekicks and teammates with matching uniforms.

Note that teams like the Fantastic Four (Is Reed Richards scheming enough to be a mastermind? Did he secretly cause himself to get stretching powers and turn Ben Grim into the thing in order to win the love of Sue Storm? And did he intentionally change Victor von Doom's calculations and cause Doom's disfigurement for the same reason?)  and the X-Men wear wear themed outfits - they don't match completely.

 

Fu Manchu? oh, yeah, a mastermind for sure.

 

 

 

The Hellfire Club has a bunch of minions but I can't say that I really took any of the superpowered leaders to be masterminds.

 

 

But, of course, in CoH, all the minions don't dress the same.

 

[fero]

The only true Mastermind in comics is Iron Man.  He even created the greatest mastermind Ultron.

[thisguy85]

Batman villains seem like the best popular example, because they're the most famous ones who are likely to actually accompany their minions on bank heists or whatever. Lex Luthor doesn't often show up to do his crimes in person unless we're talking Super Friends or he's having one of his robot suit days. It doesn't really make sense to me to associate CoH masterminds with comic villains who usually just sit in a tower and yell into a phone at their flunkies until the heroes eventually smash their way into their office. Those would be more the NPC characters who have resources beyond what (for balance and game design reasons) players could ever be allowed to command

[Infeareal]

Rita Repulsa. She fits the mastermind type. Summons minions, has various tiers and strengths of them, buffs them, heals them, rez's them, etc. Comes with an army of basic ones that are re-summonable normally led by a lieutenant or pack of lieutenants and a boss. As far as I can think across many different comic universes she fits the bill of CoH mastermind.

[Snarky]

[TalynDerre]

Colonel Rick Flagg from the Suicide Squad movies is a Mastermind.