The Philotic Knight's Buff Force Fields 1.0!

[Super Atom]

I'd like to see the three modes applied to Detention Field instead. Depending on which bubble you use, it could do normal/debuff/buff. Like if you use the debuff one (for sake of names) crushing field, it's a -regen -def on an enemy but they can still be hit. Where as the buff could be a +regen +??? on an ally. FF with a -regen would make it viable for AV fighting without needing another support on team.

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I'd like to see the three modes applied to Detention Field instead. Depending on which bubble you use, it could do normal/debuff/buff. Like if you use the debuff one (for sake of names) crushing field, it's a -regen -def on an enemy but they can still be hit. Where as the buff could be a +regen +??? on an ally. FF with a -regen would make it viable for AV fighting without needing another support on team.

I personally am of the view that Detention Field would benefit more from having a higher magnitude (imagine locking away AVs for a time), along with a way of cancelling the effect early when desired (e.g. a temporary power that pops up when Detention Field is active, that when activated on a detained enemy, brings down the field). This both increases its potential usages, along with reducing the time waiting around for the untouchable status to go away. That way, it improves on its current mechanics rather than changing them about to implement something else: that is to say, to detain an enemy to save it for later.

 

A tri-mode form for this power I'd personally say is a tad unnecessary - unlike Force Bubble, which manipulates enemy positions, and thus, greatly benefits from a greater finesse with how it does so, Detention Field does one thing: stop an opponent from acting or harming others. Adding multiple modes to it in other words, is basically just giving more features to it - making the power borrow from things Melt Armour and Wild Growth have, say. I'm all for giving Force Field improvements, but I'm personally not a fan of seeing the power set function in a different way, if that makes sense.

 

While it'd be nice for Force Field to have more things than it currently has, I think that the power set is fine where it is, and fills a niche as a defense boosting/soft control/positional supportive set. I like where the powerset is, and personally believe that what improvements there are to Force Field shouldn't greatly change what it does - to merely build on its strengths rather than to do more. It's why I really like a lot of the improvements that Philotic's suggested in the first place - iterative quality of life enhancements for Bubblers that enjoy how the powers work at the moment, but without the pain points.

[_NOPE_]

The Cottage Rule is a good rule.

[Galaxy Brain]

25 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

The Cottage Rule is a good rule.

For the most part... but rules usually have exceptions. 

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

For the most part... but rules usually have exceptions. 

Personally, I think it's less exceptions, and that the rule itself is pretty flexible. For example, Dimension Shift was turned into a toggle, even though it was previously a targeted AoE power. It also didn't allow for players to attack enemies within the shifted space, but now it does. Changes are still capable - just a more focused, and purposeful direction.

[Super Atom]

5 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

The Cottage Rule is a good rule.

 

"Seriously, it *is* a good policy -- it provides structure within which to do things. Without structure, there's chaos. How would you like it if tomorrow you logged in and, say, Build Up now built a small cottage at your chosen location, instead of adding to your damage? It's a silly example, admittedly, but it's to prevent such wholesale changes from happening. I *could* overturn it, in specific cases, if it were truly needed, but in the case being discussed here, it is not truly needed. There are MANY options that have been discussed that do not involve changing the core use of the power."

 

" An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed. "

 

Adding additional functions to the existing power without removing its core function doesn't break the cottage rule. If someone suggested force bubble give your team +regen and your enemies -regen instead of what it does currently then yes, that would then be the cottage rule being broken.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Super Atom

[Blackfeather]

25 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

"An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed. "

 

Adding additional functions to the existing power without removing its core function doesn't break the cottage rule. If someone suggested force bubble give your team +regen and your enemies -regen instead of what it does currently then yes, that would then be the cottage rule being broken.

Actually...I'm not sure if that's the case. The rule's intent from how I'm reading it is designed to keep a power's usage consistent, rather than saying "add what you like as long as you keep the previous functionality". Hence the wording behind "effects secondary to the power's true purpose".

 

As an example, let's take Philotic's suggestion of adding a chance to stun to Force Bolt, in comparison to, say, the proposal you suggested with Detention Field. The former iterates and improves on a power already designed to act as soft control, and makes it better at that by adding a chance to stun, a la Repulsion Bomb, along with upping damage slightly. In comparison, a regeneration buff/debuff isn't really secondary to Detention Field's purpose (i.e. trapping an enemy for later), but instead, completely different to it.

[Galaxy Brain]

But then there are powers like Serum that would actually be improved if it summoned a cottage instead 😛

[Super Atom]

That's not me saying anything about cottage, that's qoutes from the guy who made the rule, castle. Also ik not changing a power. I'm suggesting adding new ones along side it. Cottage wouldn't really apply because it's not modifying detention any.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Super Atom

[Leogunner]

Just an idea but when I think of Forcefield users I think of creating barriers.  I think it'd be pretty neat to make a box or wall or shape of some kind that can't be targeted through and that foes cannot pass through.  I want to be able to make a choke point in any environment or lock off an area in confined spaces.

[_NOPE_]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Just an idea but when I think of Forcefield users I think of creating barriers.  I think it'd be pretty neat to make a box or wall or shape of some kind that can't be targeted through and that foes cannot pass through.  I want to be able to make a choke point in any environment or lock off an area in confined spaces.

That's kind of what I think Force Bubble SHOULD be. But it's not, because the mag is too low, and the shape is to awkward.

[oedipus_tex]

What do people think of adding Jolting Chain's mechanic to Force Bolt (knockdown on subsequent hits instead of knockback). I think Jolting Chain has demonstrated its effectiveness. It would offer interesting slot options to Force Field without drastically changing the set. Plus it more or less obeys the cottage rule.

 

Either up the recharge to 8 seconds like Jolting Chain, or make the target cap 8 or so.

 

Second option would be to do to it what was done to Propel: an AOE knockdown at the spot the power hits. But I like this option less. That function is only good in Propel because Propel causes enough damage to be worth casting, where Force Bolt does not.

 

Third option would be to just make it a straight up Tier 1 attack. It already has appropriate recharge for that. Up the damage to Tier 1. Controllers now have a T1 attack option. Defenders have a very fast casting T1 with guaranteed knockback.

 

I like the Jolting Chain option best though. Jolting Chain for Masterminds! It would give Force Field something worth doing.

Edited January 2, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

19 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Third option would be to just make it a straight up Tier 1 attack. It already has appropriate recharge for that. Up the damage to Tier 1. Controllers now have a T1 attack option. Defenders have a very fast casting T1 with guaranteed knockback.

That's what Philotic suggested in the original post, I believe, including a chance to stun. I myself like having the option for knockback on Force Bolt - nice keepaway, and there's Repulsion Bomb for AoE knockdowns...and with enough slotting, I think even AVs can be knocked back, which is good fun.

[oedipus_tex]

33 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

That's what Philotic suggested in the original post, I believe, including a chance to stun. I myself like having the option for knockback on Force Bolt - nice keepaway, and there's Repulsion Bomb for AoE knockdowns...and with enough slotting, I think even AVs can be knocked back, which is good fun.

 

No I don't think it's possible to knock an AV. They have too much Resistance, even if you could get past their Protection.

 

IMO as is Force Bolt is a very poor power. Similar kinds of power (Levitate, Lift, Power Push) do decent damage so I don't see why Force Bolt couldnt.

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

No I don't think it's possible to knock an AV. They have too much Resistance, even if you could get past their Protection.

 

IMO as is Force Bolt is a very poor power. Similar kinds of power (Levitate, Lift, Power Push) do decent damage so I don't see why Force Bolt couldnt.

Archvillain Knockback Protection is 50. Slotted up, Force Bolt can reach past that number. I'm all for increasing its damage for sure though, which is why I like Philotic's changes in the first place.

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Archvillain Knockback Protection is 50. Slotted up, Force Bolt can reach past that number. I'm all for increasing its damage for sure though, which is why I like Philotic's changes in the first place.

 

If used by a Defender who has Knockback 3-slotted, it might work against a +0 AVor below, but I've never seen it demonstrated.

 

Versus anything else the 50 knockback gets reduced. 

 

I can't seem to find any documentation on whether AVs have native Knockback resistance on top of this. Most player Tanker powers do, which is why no strength of knock will ever affect them.

[Blackfeather]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

If used by a Defender who has Knockback 3-slotted, it might work against a +0 AVor below, but I've never seen it demonstrated.

 

Versus anything else the 50 knockback gets reduced. 

 

I can't seem to find any documentation on whether AVs have native Knockback resistance on top of this. Most player Tanker powers do, which is why no strength of knock will ever affect them.

If you're proposing that Force Bolt's Knockback magnitude ought to be increased accordingly to do so, I'll wholeheartedly agree! Sounds like a nice change.

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

If you're proposing that Force Bolt's Knockback magnitude ought to be increased accordingly to do so, I'll wholeheartedly agree! Sounds like a nice change.

 

 

No, it would actually be overpowered.

 

In the past what I've suggested is the power do attack level damage (enough to justify casting it) and then have a 10% chance for unresistable knockdown. That would give the power, in addition to its base use, a chance to still kinda work versus AVs without it being the ability to knockback an AV every ~1 second on a high end build.

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[_NOPE_]

Not a bad idea. 

[Blackfeather]

Ah well. Needless to say, I'd definitely be up for Philotic's changes to Force Bolt wholesale - extra damage and a chance to stun sounds excellent.

21 hours ago, Super Atom said:

That's not me saying anything about cottage, that's qoutes from the guy who made the rule, castle. Also ik not changing a power. I'm suggesting adding new ones along side it. Cottage wouldn't really apply because it's not modifying detention any.

I'm aware. That's why I included it in my quote in the first place - to demonstrate the intention of the rule compared to your interpretation of them. Just because a power's original features are left intact doesn't mean that its purpose will remain the same if new things are added to it, especially if they're not done keeping in mind that they ought to be secondary to said power's true purpose, as the quote states.

 

As much as new features and the like for powers are nice, I believe they ought to be in service of what it is already doing, and build on that, rather than to add completely different effects, if that makes sense.

[Galaxy Brain]

I agree that some offense should be added. Force Bolt / Bomb should be treated like extra ranged attacks.

[_NOPE_]

Yeah, I always found that the purpose of the Cottage Rule was to maintain the THEME of powers and power sets as they were originally designed, so that they don't stray too far from that design. 

 

Tweaks and adjustments can and should be made, but only for the purposes of balancing and quality of life. Like the changes to the buff shields that made them targeted AoE instead of single target. It changed the way the power works, but it didn't change the THEME of the power, just the mechanic, and only in a way to make things easier. It didn't change what the powers fundamentally did - it just made them more efficient and less tedious. 

 

Save the new tricks and new mechanics for new powersets, I think. Otherwise, why make new powersets at all, when you can just change existing powersets and keep redefining them? 

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Otherwise, why make new powersets at all, when you can just change existing powersets and keep redefining them? 

At a certain point you do sort of run out of room for "new" if its just like "Oh, Empathy but with 1 Defense AoE instead of this other power".  I think tweaking sets retroactively would help to fight this oddly enough, like if FF had great + Def and great offensive power instead of just Defense which other sets cover nowadays.

[oedipus_tex]

I also think some sets deserve some review when new mechanics come out that seem to fit that set.

 

Like, Force Field would have had Absorb if Absorb existed when Force Field came out. 

 

 

Anyway, I have been thinking about Personal Force Field. Was wondering if we could get it to work like this:

 

• When you first cast it: Works exactly like now applies defense and resistance
  • But also adds Absorb every tick
• When you toggle it off: Defense and Resistance go away, Absorb sticks around til its taken away by an attack

 

 

I also think that Detention Field should be castable on teammates and just provide straight up Absorb. At least that would give Detention Field sets you can slot.

Edited January 3, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

At a certain point you do sort of run out of room for "new" if its just like "Oh, Empathy but with 1 Defense AoE instead of this other power".  I think tweaking sets retroactively would help to fight this oddly enough, like if FF had great + Def and great offensive power instead of just Defense which other sets cover nowadays.

I don't think that's fair on users who already enjoy how Force Field currently works (I count myself as one of them), to change it for the sake of making newer powersets more unique. However, I agree that adding some additional offensive power to Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb would be nice, as Philotic has proposed in his original post.

28 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Anyway, I have been thinking about Personal Force Field. Was wondering if we could get it to work like this:

 

• When you first cast it: Works exactly like now applies defense and resistance
  • But also adds Absorb every tick
• When you toggle it off: Defense and Resistance go away, Absorb sticks around til its taken away by an attack

 

 

I also think that Detention Field should be castable on teammates and just provide straight up Absorb. At least that would give Detention Field sets you can slot.

While it's nice to have additional features, I do have to wonder about the intent behind the Absorb mechanic behind these powers, and whether they make sense in them. I can somewhat agree with Personal Force Field providing additional protection, since it's a power designed to make yourself nigh untouchable at the cost of being unable to attack. However, I don't believe granting temporary health after the field is down is part of this.

 

Likewise, Detention Field acts as the ultimate quarantine power: to stop an enemy from doing anything. Is the Absorb mechanic conducive to aiding this effect? I'm not sure if it is, and I kind of see even providing an option to do so as a disincentive for using the power as it is intended. I think Detention Field would be much better served by providing it greater flexibility with how long it can detain enemies for; changing it to a toggle was suggested before, along with the ability to bring it down with a casting of a temporary power on the detained target. And of course, being able to detain AVs would be great, giving it just another niche like how Sleep is, but still conditional. In the end, they still need to be damaged to be defeated after all.