Make Origins More Relevant

[TheBlindGirl]

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

 

Huh?

 

Content that's origin-locked necessarily has a smaller audience, but takes just as much effort to produce. Notice that none of the people demanding the content be made are offering to do any of the work to produce it. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to" is a valid defense only for content that already exists or which you plan to make yourself. When asking other people to produce content for you, it is incredibly narcissistic to tell them not to care that very few people will actually want that content.

[Leogunner]

I'm not really sure why you're bringing up "power-tripping" roleplayers or people who intentionally roleplay characters that don't fit into the setting. I'm saying that if someone says "I'm going to write a story for all the Natural heroes, it'll be a gritty noir story about a murder mystery," that sort of story is not going to connect with a Natural character who's an alien, or a dragon, or something. Those aren't wild or out-there character concepts for a game about superheroes. I'm just saying that coming at content from the angle of "this will be the story for Natural/Magic/etc. characters" is doomed to fail.

 

The obvious answer to this reply is "Then don't play it".

 

Well that's the rub. Why write a story with such a targeted audience in such a way that it alienates a large portion of that audience?

 

As an avid villain player, the audience is alienating itself, not the content.  If we're to follow your logic, nothing should be added to CoV then.

[Leogunner]

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

 

Nice try but the suggestion so far isn't concrete.  The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

 

"Offering to invest time" at this point is a empty gesture.

[jack_nomind]

Nice try but the suggestion so far isn't concrete.  The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

 

Well, when you've finished planning the organization of the meeting to consider the pre-conference brainstorming process, let us know.  In the meantime, if the "the idea" is a set of story arcs, it won't get any more concrete than that until someone starts writing them.

[Leogunner]

Having Origins does mean something to a lot of players. If anything I think it would be more interesting to add a couple more Origins.

 

Ideas for simple ways to make Origins more relevant?

-Some origin specific costume sets (in name only, these would be available to all for use. AS IT SHOULD BE)

 

I get that with where the game is now that this is the likely outcome of such an addition; If they added "Origin-specific costume pieces" then everyone would get them.

 

But why call them "Origin-specific costume pieces" at all if they are not limited to specific origins?

 

I am not defending that;  I think that all costume pieces should be available to every origin, AT, whatever.

But this is not adding "Origin-specific costume pieces", it's adding costume pieces.

 

Calling something a "technology helmet" or "mutant boots" wouldn't change that.  If it's available to everyone then it's not an "origin-specific costume piece".

 

Origin-based content is a fool’s errand, because there’s so many different ways origins can be played. There’s no way to write one-size-fits-all content using origins as a base. The Juggernaut and Dr. Strange are both Magic origin characters, but they couldn’t be more different otherwise. Batman and Superman are both Natural origin, but the things they deal with are on completely different scales. It’s far more sensible to do what the devs did, and just write the interesting content they could without trying to shoehorn some connection to the player character that’s likely to miss the mark.

 

The Circle of Thorns is in the game.

Is it a "fool's errand" to write missions that use them as the enemy?

 

Crey is in the game.

Is it a fool's errand to write missions with them as the enemy?

 

Then it is not a fool's errand to write stories for magic or technology heroes that use those groups as the enemy.

 

My magic character is not a spellcaster.  They are a lot closer to Juggernaut in the sense that they are just fueled by a magical source.

That doesn't stop the "magic contacts" from sending him on the same missions that they send the spellcasters on.

That doesn't stop the contacts in the game from sending him on the same missions that they send natural, science, technology, or mutant characters on.

 

The power gap between Batman and Superman is a construct in the comics, not in this game.

It doesn't matter what origin you gave your character or what powers you selected, the missions are the missions and if your headcanon doesn't allow for certain level-appropriate enemies to be a threat to your "Superman" then that is your problem.

 

=============

 

Not going to edit what I have already wrote, but will add some things based upon recent responses:

 

The natural story, to use a mentioned example, doesn't have to be a "gritty noir murder mystery".

That story isn't about natural characters, it's about detective heroes.  You keep trying to shove things into the conversation that the game itself doesn't seem to suggest.

 

What do natural heroes do out of the gate?  They fight some Council, they fight some Skulls, they talk to the Security Chief and fight some Hellions.

And then when they are through with all of that, they get introduced to some contacts that seem to specialize in the Lost, so now they are dealing with that faction.

 

Where is the "gritty noir murder mystery" that you think they have to do to stake themselves out as natural heroes?

 

How many "gritty noir murder mysteries" are there in the game, anyway?

 

Of course, you are not limited to your origin contact anymore, and so the natural character can end up fighting Vazhilok or Clockwork out of the gate if they would rather, but I am still looking for those "gritty noir murder mysteries" that you seem to think natural characters must be involved in.

The closest I can think of on any regular basis are the Vazhilok.  Not really gritty or noir, but they are definitely behind some murders.

 

But I suggested that they use the Council for natural characters.

 

Why neither Batman nor Superman could enjoy an arc where they are trying to stop the Council from taking over the world I will never know.

 

I don't know how you could write the first half of this post and then turn around and write the second. Using the Circle of Thorns as an enemy group in a story does not make it a story for Magic Origin characters, it makes it a story with the Circle of Thorns. I'm not objecting to them adding new content or stories, I'm objecting to them adding those stories and trying to tie them into our characters for us. You say you have a Juggernaut type of character, empowered by magic but generally ignorant of its workings; what if they wrote a Circle of Thorns story and, seeing you have a magic origin, gave you an objective to perform some ritual, because as a Magic origin character you must know how to do it? That would completely fall flat as a way of connecting the story to your character. That's what I'm objecting to, that's the fool's errand.

 

How is it any different from current where an artifact or ritual is needed to progress the story and it all just works out without intimate knowledge of the workings?  Your argument crashes into the brickwall that is the already existing content.

 

That being said, your argument also presents an opportunity for character growth.  So you've got an example of a character who has no knowledge of magic but has powers granted by magic?  I guess it's time they learn a bit about the complexities of their powers' source along with some rituals101...perhaps they'll strengthen their abilities or learn new ways to utilize their powers (*hint* *hint*).  But if we're to assume that this would be forced upon your characters' backstory when we're talking about the source of where their power comes from, I'd categorize that being a person power-tripping the basic rulesets of the game.  It'd be akin to a guy wearing a technology power suit yet not knowing how to push the power button on a laptop.  Somehow this guy can fine maneuver advanced tech but can't conceptualize power cycling a simple computer?

[Leogunner]

Nice try but the suggestion so far isn't concrete.  The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

 

Well, when you've finished planning the organization of the meeting to consider the pre-conference brainstorming process, let us know.  In the meantime, if the "the idea" is a set of story arcs, it won't get any more concrete than that until someone starts writing them.

 

Well it's still not agreed yet if "the idea" is just "a set of story arcs" and even if it is, the breadth of its integration is likely the point of contention here. 

[Zaphir]

I remember that Origins made a lot of difference when getting contacts / missions in the earlier versions of COH. Your initial contact was tied to your origin (DATA/MAGI/SERAPH/GIFT/ELITE) and IIRC you'd spend the first 10 levels (a long time!) fighting the major themed enemy group for that origin; it was not possible to work with any of the other origin contacts. (I remember going Tech and developing an early disdain for Clockwork... :P ) Eventually they'd introduce you to a 'dual-origin' contact, and after that things got a bit blurry... I remember most high-end contacts being origin-agnostic, though.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure it added that much to the game (which may also be why it kinda fell by the wayside) -- I prefer the current freeform style a lot better.

 

* Ref: ParagonWiki list of origin-specific contacts

[OEM61]

I don't know how you could write the first half of this post and then turn around and write the second. Using the Circle of Thorns as an enemy group in a story does not make it a story for Magic Origin characters, it makes it a story with the Circle of Thorns. I'm not objecting to them adding new content or stories, I'm objecting to them adding those stories and trying to tie them into our characters for us. You say you have a Juggernaut type of character, empowered by magic but generally ignorant of its workings; what if they wrote a Circle of Thorns story and, seeing you have a magic origin, gave you an objective to perform some ritual, because as a Magic origin character you must know how to do it? That would completely fall flat as a way of connecting the story to your character. That's what I'm objecting to, that's the fool's errand.

 

Pretty sure they do that now, don't they?

 

I seem to recall some mission somewhere where our character, no matter their origin, had to perform some kind of ritual or use some magic item that they were given to activate some magic spell(s) or ritual or counteract some spell(s) or ritual or something of that sort.

 

And while an ignorance of the inner-workings of magic is easy since it's not real, there are plenty of fantasy-styled characters that I have seen (or could create), magic origin or not, that may well have an ignorance of the workings of technology.

 

Are you out there protesting that Migli the Dwarf, with his natural axe/shield self, transported from some fantasy realm, should not be asked to download data from a computer because he has no idea how computers work?

 

But they are asked.  They will be asked.  And you can either uninstall the game because "muh immersion" or you can roll with it.

 

And the writers, whoever they may be, can do their level best to try and make sure that the stories they write do not lean too heavily into some specific concept of what a character of a certain origin should be.

 

That the magic story isn't about casting spells and discussions of the inner workings of magic with the foremost scholars in the game world any more than it's about the character trying to protect that magical talisman that gives them powers or trying to understand why the magical being chose them to be the new guardian of reality or whatever.

 

The Circle of Thorns use magic.  They are, arguably, the definitive magical villain group in the game, existing as enemies from level 5-ish to 50.

 

So the Circle has been up to something.  Your contact is sure of it.

 

You go question some Circle.  They give you a clue that your contact thinks points towards an ancient summoning ritual.  That matches up with something they have learned from another hero.  Better go check out location X, and there you encounter a Circle boss.

 

That boss leads you to two other bosses.  Now your contact is afraid;  The Circle may think that they are going to conquer the city, but they believe that destruction of the city is the more likely outcome.  You must stop the Ritual!  (or the ritual happens and you must defeat the monster/demon/thingy that they summon!).

 

In any event, there you have a 5-part arc that a magic origin character could play through that doesn't, in my estimation, lean too heavily towards any particular type of magic character.  Shazam could fit as easily as Dr. Strange.  Zatanna and Juggernaut should both feel at home there.

 

It's a mission where you are fighting the CoT.  Because the magic origin contact that gives out the mission contacted you because they are magic and you are magic...  It works out.

 

Just like both Superman and Batman are trying to stop the Council from mass-producing their latest "Perfect Man" and dealing with whatever they have to deal with to stop that from happening.  No gritty noir detective story.  A contact calls you, tells you that they Council has been making some moves and they just got word that they are hitting a pharmaceutical company as we speak!

Part 1 leads to part 2 (find out what these drugs are for) leads to part 3 (a Council snitch wants a meeting, but, of course, the Council are on site so you need to extract him) leads to part 4 (hit the site!  Hah, they fooled you.  That was the old site, but it had info on the new site) to part 5 (Okay, now hit the site and fight their "perfect man").

 

Just like both Iron Man (who is a super-genius that makes all his own tech) and War Machine (who just wears the suit) will be dealing with whatever technology enemy they have to deal with.

 

None of these have to try and tell the players what sort of character they are supposed to be playing because they have some certain origin, they are just a special arc for characters of that origin type.

 

Afraid that somehow this all leads to you missing a badge?

Then give everyone that does it the same badge.  "Original" or something as a play on "origin".

 

[TheBlindGirl]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

 

No, it doesn't.

[Vanden]

I don't know how you could write the first half of this post and then turn around and write the second. Using the Circle of Thorns as an enemy group in a story does not make it a story for Magic Origin characters, it makes it a story with the Circle of Thorns. I'm not objecting to them adding new content or stories, I'm objecting to them adding those stories and trying to tie them into our characters for us. You say you have a Juggernaut type of character, empowered by magic but generally ignorant of its workings; what if they wrote a Circle of Thorns story and, seeing you have a magic origin, gave you an objective to perform some ritual, because as a Magic origin character you must know how to do it? That would completely fall flat as a way of connecting the story to your character. That's what I'm objecting to, that's the fool's errand.

 

How is it any different from current where an artifact or ritual is needed to progress the story and it all just works out without intimate knowledge of the workings?  Your argument crashes into the brickwall that is the already existing content.

 

Because the current content doesn't look at what your origin is and try to make a connection with your character. How is that so hard to understand?

 

That being said, your argument also presents an opportunity for character growth.  So you've got an example of a character who has no knowledge of magic but has powers granted by magic?  I guess it's time they learn a bit about the complexities of their powers' source along with some rituals101...perhaps they'll strengthen their abilities or learn new ways to utilize their powers (*hint* *hint*).  But if we're to assume that this would be forced upon your characters' backstory when we're talking about the source of where their power comes from, I'd categorize that being a person power-tripping the basic rulesets of the game.  It'd be akin to a guy wearing a technology power suit yet not knowing how to push the power button on a laptop.  Somehow this guy can fine maneuver advanced tech but can't conceptualize power cycling a simple computer?

 

That is an extremely reasonable character concept. Ever heard of Greatest American Hero? That guy fits this concept to a T.

 

I don't know how you could write the first half of this post and then turn around and write the second. Using the Circle of Thorns as an enemy group in a story does not make it a story for Magic Origin characters, it makes it a story with the Circle of Thorns. I'm not objecting to them adding new content or stories, I'm objecting to them adding those stories and trying to tie them into our characters for us. You say you have a Juggernaut type of character, empowered by magic but generally ignorant of its workings; what if they wrote a Circle of Thorns story and, seeing you have a magic origin, gave you an objective to perform some ritual, because as a Magic origin character you must know how to do it? That would completely fall flat as a way of connecting the story to your character. That's what I'm objecting to, that's the fool's errand.

 

Pretty sure they do that now, don't they?

 

No, that's virtually never done. The only example I can think of in the game currently is a mission in Praetoria where the way your character disarms a bomb depends on your origin.

 

And while an ignorance of the inner-workings of magic is easy since it's not real, there are plenty of fantasy-styled characters that I have seen (or could create), magic origin or not, that may well have an ignorance of the workings of technology.

 

Are you out there protesting that Migli the Dwarf, with his natural axe/shield self, transported from some fantasy realm, should not be asked to download data from a computer because he has no idea how computers work?

 

I honestly can't see how you would draw this conclusion from what I wrote.

 

But they are asked.  They will be asked.  And you can either uninstall the game because "muh immersion" or you can roll with it.

 

I never said anything about immersion.

 

And the writers, whoever they may be, can do their level best to try and make sure that the stories they write do not lean too heavily into some specific concept of what a character of a certain origin should be.

 

That the magic story isn't about casting spells and discussions of the inner workings of magic with the foremost scholars in the game world any more than it's about the character trying to protect that magical talisman that gives them powers or trying to understand why the magical being chose them to be the new guardian of reality or whatever.

 

The Circle of Thorns use magic.  They are, arguably, the definitive magical villain group in the game, existing as enemies from level 5-ish to 50.

 

So the Circle has been up to something.  Your contact is sure of it.

 

You go question some Circle.  They give you a clue that your contact thinks points towards an ancient summoning ritual.  That matches up with something they have learned from another hero.  Better go check out location X, and there you encounter a Circle boss.

 

That boss leads you to two other bosses.  Now your contact is afraid;  The Circle may think that they are going to conquer the city, but they believe that destruction of the city is the more likely outcome.  You must stop the Ritual!  (or the ritual happens and you must defeat the monster/demon/thingy that they summon!).

 

In any event, there you have a 5-part arc that a magic origin character could play through that doesn't, in my estimation, lean too heavily towards any particular type of magic character.  Shazam could fit as easily as Dr. Strange.  Zatanna and Juggernaut should both feel at home there.

 

Sounds fine so far. This writer isn't trying to make the player's Origin matter.

 

It's a mission where you are fighting the CoT.  Because the magic origin contact that gives out the mission contacted you because they are magic and you are magic...  It works out.

 

Aaaand you've lost it. You've assumed something about the character based on nothing more than the origin, and will most likely be wrong in a large amount of cases.

 

Just like both Superman and Batman are trying to stop the Council from mass-producing their latest "Perfect Man" and dealing with whatever they have to deal with to stop that from happening.  No gritty noir detective story.  A contact calls you, tells you that they Council has been making some moves and they just got word that they are hitting a pharmaceutical company as we speak!

Part 1 leads to part 2 (find out what these drugs are for) leads to part 3 (a Council snitch wants a meeting, but, of course, the Council are on site so you need to extract him) leads to part 4 (hit the site!  Hah, they fooled you.  That was the old site, but it had info on the new site) to part 5 (Okay, now hit the site and fight their "perfect man").

 

Just like both Iron Man (who is a super-genius that makes all his own tech) and War Machine (who just wears the suit) will be dealing with whatever technology enemy they have to deal with.

 

What is the point of these arc descriptions? How do they support the idea that origin should matter in the game? I'm arguing that it shouldn't, and you specifically responded to me, so I think you're arguing that origin should matter, but all you've written here is some plot outlines that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

(As an aside, the Council are a Science origin group, not Natural.)

 

None of these have to try and tell the players what sort of character they are supposed to be playing because they have some certain origin, they are just a special arc for characters of that origin type.

 

Again, how does that support the argument that Origin should matter more?

 

Afraid that somehow this all leads to you missing a badge?

Then give everyone that does it the same badge.  "Original" or something as a play on "origin".

 

I never said anything to that effect.

[EggKookoo]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

No, it doesn't.

 

Please remember, origin-oriented mission content is just one suggestion. Really I'm just looking for ways to make my choice of origin (mechanically) relevant. Otherwise I think it should just go away. If your origin is "RP only" as some have suggested, then make it a text field in your bio just like your background is. Disconnect origins from being able to slot DOs and SOs, so you could slot any of them. That might also meaning reducing the drop rate of SOs by 80% and I think the rate of DOs by about 89% (if I did that math right).

 

Regarding being willing to "do the work," I'm not sure what you're getting at. Not everyone who makes a suggestion (in a forum labeled Suggestions & Feedback no less) can reasonably be on the hook for implementing it. I happily donate money to the Homecoming team and I would be willing to donate time as well. That's all kind of beside the point as I'm not a Homecoming dev and probably am not likely to be one in the near future. The point of this thread is to hash out if "making your origin relevant" is a good idea, and to do so in a public place so the actual devs can see it and decide if there's any merit. I don't expect us (well, unless you're a Homecoming dev) to actually do any of the stuff we're talking about.

[OEM61]

 

Are you out there protesting that Migli the Dwarf, with his natural axe/shield self, transported from some fantasy realm, should not be asked to download data from a computer because he has no idea how computers work?

 

I honestly can't see how you would draw this conclusion from what I wrote.

 

Because you are telling everyone here that the game shouldn't make missions that assume anything about your character.

It doesn't matter why they are telling it, what matters is that they are telling it.

 

If a mission centered on magic is no good because it would assume something about your character then a mission that requires that your character perform any task is no good because it assumes something about your character.

 

If, and this is only an if, in the magic mission you were asked to read a scroll then you seemingly protest because your character isn't a magic scroll reading type of magic character.

Well, that "I was transported from a fantasy realm" Dwarf isn't computer literate.  So what's the difference?  Why protest this so much when it's clear that there are things that can happen in the game that people will have to brush aside?

 

Aaaand you've lost it. You've assumed something about the character based on nothing more than the origin, and will most likely be wrong in a large amount of cases.

 

What was assumed?

That a magic-based character in Paragon City might try to contact another magic-based character if they think that they could help them with a problem?

That some spellcaster used his abilities and the spell led them to your character?

That some seer might have seen your character as the one that must undertake the mission?

That some other magic-based contact might have told their magic-using friend that you were a good hand?

 

This is where you go off the rails and start making ridiculous complaints.

 

 

What is the point of these arc descriptions? How do they support the idea that origin should matter in the game? I'm arguing that it shouldn't, and you specifically responded to me, so I think you're arguing that origin should matter, but all you've written here is some plot outlines that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

All I have done is suggested that they could make origin-specific arcs that only characters of that origin could play.

Something that would do it's little part to set aside the different characters of different origins.

Something that might encourage people to not just re-roll new toons with different ATs, but to re-roll new toons with different origins.

 

A natural hero would have at least one thing in the game that would play to that origin.  Their own story arc that only natural heroes could do, and that it wouldn't matter if that natural character was Batman or Superman or Captain America.

(As an aside, the Council are a Science origin group, not Natural.)

 

Spoiler alert:  The Clockwork aren't really based in technology.

 

The character's earliest opportunity to face the Council in the game comes from the natural contact.

 

I picked the Council for my placeholder.  You know what a placeholder is, right?

 

If the devs think that the Vazhilok would be the best enemies to use for natural heroes then so what?  They use Vazhilok and it doesn't matter that the enemies are science.

 

Again, how does that support the argument that Origin should matter more?

 

Again, if every character has even one exclusive story arc based on origin then origin matters more.

 

I never said anything to that effect.

 

Other people have.

[TheBlindGirl]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

No, it doesn't.

 

Please remember, origin-oriented mission content is just one suggestion.

 

It is a suggestion that involves quintupling the workload for all new content generated under the paradigm, made by people who do not expect to have to do any of that work. Your excuses do not change the work required nor do they broaden the audience for it. Either you plan to do the work yourself or your suggestion is bad.

[Judasace]

Should just delete origins tbh, they're only relevant in deciding what DO/SO enhancements you get, which nobody uses in the first place.

 

If you want to pretend your character has magic powers or is a mutant, you are free to do that without locking it in place with a literally useless mechanic.

 

While they're at it they should delete emotes. If you want to pretend your character is doing jumping jacks or juggling just pretend. It' not useful in terms of game mechanics.

 

Same thing is true of capes. Well, all costume parts. Just delete them all.

 

TBH, all of the graphics fall under this category.

 

Get rid of all of it. Let's just have a string of numbers running down the screen, and at certain designated intervals we click the mouse.

 

Sounds like a big improvement to me.

[EggKookoo]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

No, it doesn't.

Please remember, origin-oriented mission content is just one suggestion.

It is a suggestion that involves quintupling the workload for all new content generated under the paradigm, made by people who do not expect to have to do any of that work. Your excuses do not change the work required nor do they broaden the audience for it. Either you plan to do the work yourself or your suggestion is bad.

 

[justicebeliever]

I;m really sorry EggKooKoo, I was excited about brainstorming with you and others on this.  It's a shame that before that could happen in these forums any and all ideas have been shot down before having the chance to be fleshed out.  It's surprises me, because most posters love to try and help each other out.

 

Content that's origin-locked necessarily has a smaller audience, but takes just as much effort to produce. Notice that none of the people demanding the content be made are offering to do any of the work to produce it. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to" is a valid defense only for content that already exists or which you plan to make yourself. When asking other people to produce content for you, it is incredibly narcissistic to tell them not to care that very few people will actually want that content.

 

BlindGirl - I'm not sure who upset you here, but nobody is demanding anything.  This was a brainstorming idea.  It's OK to be down on the idea, but don't impute feelings or attitudes to people that just aren't there.  As for myself - it's not narcissism that drives my conversation, but the joy of discussing a new idea.  There are lots of great points to be made here about the value of new content to others, and you are certainly right that new origin specific missions could be content that no one wants and therefore no one should develop.  So far I think we've heard from what, 8 people?  And those voices are pretty split, so it's hardly time yet to call a definitive end to the discussion yet.

 

Please remember, origin-oriented mission content is just one suggestion.

It is a suggestion that involves quintupling the workload for all new content generated under the paradigm, made by people who do not expect to have to do any of that work. Your excuses do not change the work required nor do they broaden the audience for it. Either you plan to do the work yourself or your suggestion is bad.

 

All suggestions on these forums involve work for somebody.  And any attempt to make the connection that unless you can do the work, don't mention the problem/suggestion is farcical.  Most problems in our lives are outsourced to someone else to do the work.  In many cases that means you have to pay for someone else to do the work.  But that's what EggKooKoo said - many of us are giving money to HC.  Please don't demean his gift (or mine) to helping out by saying we are doing nothing for the cause.

 

HC put up these forums (and the suggestions and feedback board) so we can make suggestions.  Suggestions should first be discussed for the merits involved, and then if someone (Dev's or another poster) finds value in those suggestions they can take up the work.  If no one finds value, then the suggestion dies and life goes on. 

 

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TL;DR - Again, it feels like someone has upset you here, if so, I suggest you be specific who you are talking to and what the behavior was that upset you.  Take it to a PM if needed.  But please, don't paint people who make suggestions of any kind as "demanding","narcissistic" or lazy.  It's counterproductive to these discussions, to the forums, and to the community.

[OEM61]

 

It is a suggestion that involves quintupling the workload for all new content generated under the paradigm, made by people who do not expect to have to do any of that work. Your excuses do not change the work required nor do they broaden the audience for it. Either you plan to do the work yourself or your suggestion is bad.

 

Not necessarily.

 

There could still be general content added.

I don't know that anyone has suggested that all new content would have to be for one origin and one origin only.

 

There is a big difference between "add an arc for each origin type" and "make it so each origin type will run content exclusive to them with no crossover outside of TFs".

 

Nailing down those other ideas is more of an issue.

 

In any event, this is all strictly dream content in my opinion, which is why the hostility puzzles me.

 

This will not happen.

Not enough hours in the day.  Too much other stuff to do.

 

Because while this could encourage alting, this doesn't have the same potential payoff here as it would if the game were live and trying to generate profit.

 

I;m really sorry EggKooKoo, I was excited about brainstorming with you and others on this.  It's a shame that before that could happen in these forums any and all ideas have been shot down before having the chance to be fleshed out.  It's surprises me, because most posters love to try and help each other out.

 

See, this is mostly where I am.

 

I think that suggestions fall into a few categories.

Those that are "serious" that I might throw my voice into support or opposition for, and those that I think have no chance, but they might be fun to talk about.

 

This is the latter for me.

 

Will it happen?  No, I do not think so.

 

Doesn't mean that the discussion with some people that enjoy the game as I do can't be fun.

[srmalloy]

I remember that Origins made a lot of difference when getting contacts / missions in the earlier versions of COH. Your initial contact was tied to your origin (DATA/MAGI/SERAPH/GIFT/ELITE) and IIRC you'd spend the first 10 levels (a long time!) fighting the major themed enemy group for that origin; it was not possible to work with any of the other origin contacts. (I remember going Tech and developing an early disdain for Clockwork... :P ) Eventually they'd introduce you to a 'dual-origin' contact, and after that things got a bit blurry... I remember most high-end contacts being origin-agnostic, though.

 

I'm still a bit twitchy about creating Science-origin characters, from the experience of being thrown up against Vahzilok for my first ten levels. And I still try to avoid taking early missions that would put me up against the Vahzilok, because I remember what it was like facing them with a shortage of attacks and an even bigger shortage of mitigation.

 

If I'm correctly remembering some of the things that were revealed about the really early designs for CoH, the different origins were going to make a huge difference in not just which powers you could have, but how many of them you got and how powerful they were. This was kicked to the side fairly early when the balance issues became too complicated to move forward on.

[TheBlindGirl]

Golly.

 

Tedious nitpicking.

 

Who could've seen that coming.

 

So far I think we've heard from what, 8 people?

 

None of whom have skin in the game. The suggestion quintuples the workload for all content developed under its paradigm. It is not going to be implemented unless one of its supporters takes it upon themselves to do the work themselves. All discussion of what its pros and cons would be if implemented do not matter, because it will not be implemented. If you want to have a discussion about implementing origins in the game, step one is not to discuss an idea that is not happening on purely practical grounds unless one of its supporters does the work themselves. No one is volunteering.

 

 

All suggestions on these forums involve work for somebody.

 

Would you consider a series of five full expansions each offering an entirely new location and 1-50 level progression to be a reasonable, realistic suggestion for making origins more relevant?

[EggKookoo]

I think that suggestions fall into a few categories.

Those that are "serious" that I might throw my voice into support or opposition for, and those that I think have no chance, but they might be fun to talk about.

 

This is the latter for me.

 

Honestly that's where I am, too. I don't have any expectations. But as someone who works in software development, I understand the value of bouncing ideas. Mostly they go nowhere. Sometimes they sit on back burners until something opens up a path where they might make sense. I can't count the number of times I've said to my own boss "Hey, remember that thing we wished we could do three years back? Well, with this new [platform/tech/whatever] it's actually feasible now." And often some of our best progress comes from the non-developer side, who throw out concepts that 99% are pure nonsense, but that 1% pushes us in a direction we might not have had the inclination to go on our own.

 

I completely reject the accusation that making a suggestion is in any way demanding anything from anyone. I'm not even demanding that anyone read or respond to my suggestion! Maybe the only thing I "demand" is that if you do voice an objection to it, your objection comes in the form of some kind of argument that focuses on the merits of the suggestion itself and not on broad hypotheticals.

[TheBlindGirl]

Maybe the only thing I "demand" is that if you do voice an objection to it, your objection comes in the form of some kind of argument that focuses on the merits of the suggestion itself and not on broad hypotheticals.

 

What broad hypothetical did you have in mind?

[EggKookoo]

Would you consider a series of five full expansions each offering an entirely new location and 1-50 level progression to be a reasonable, realistic suggestion for making origins more relevant?

 

I don't think anyone's made that suggestion, but feel free to strawman away.

 

Do you work in any kind of production industry (software or otherwise)? If not, let me explain something. The concept/design phase is not the same as the project management phase or the dev planning or implementation phase. If a designer wants a feature, it doesn't automatically follow that the developers must implement that feature without regard to project management or resource management. What happens is the feature is discussed among the developers and the project managers, and a decision is made about if, how, and when to implement it. That decision takes into consideration things like: 1) is the feature appropriate for the overall application and does it fit the intended vision of the application? 2) is the feature useful or desired by the users of the application? 3) is the feature expensive to implement, in time or any other resource? Plus any other considerations a given development team might like to address (all teams are different).

 

If the answer to these is yes, and no other basic objections can be found ("nah, the CEO hates that kind of thing"), then it becomes a question of project management. When does it make sense to add this feature? Can it be added in a single upcoming "build" or will it need to be phased in? What, if any, other planned features will need to be reshuffled around it? And so on.

 

Unless you actually are part of the Homecoming development or project management team -- and hey, you might be, but please say so -- then I'm not sure it's your position to decide for them what's appropriate and feasible. I'm confident they're capable of making that determination themselves.

[justicebeliever]

Golly.

 

Tedious nitpicking.

 

Who could've seen that coming.

 

 

If asking for civility in discussion and clarity of meaning is nitpicking, then yes, I am captain nitpick.  You do realize we are real people here and deserve some basic decency in conversation.  So far you have managed to explicitly call people demanding and narcissistic, and implicitly called them lazy.

 

So if a modicum of politeness is a barrier to you in conversation and you only wish to be adversarial, then you define yourself as a troll.

 

If it is not a barrier, and you wish to engage with other humans in a cooperative manner, then let’s discuss.

 

The choice is yours...

[TheBlindGirl]

Would you consider a series of five full expansions each offering an entirely new location and 1-50 level progression to be a reasonable, realistic suggestion for making origins more relevant?

 

I don't think anyone's made that suggestion, but feel free to strawman away.

 

The irony is stunning.

 

Do you work in any kind of production industry (software or otherwise)?

 

Yes.

 

I'm not sure it's your position to decide for them what's appropriate and feasible.

 

Which of my posts do you believe was directed towards the dev team?

 

If asking for civility in discussion and clarity of meaning is nitpicking, then yes, I am captain nitpick.

 

Honesty would be nice.

[EggKookoo]

Would you consider a series of five full expansions each offering an entirely new location and 1-50 level progression to be a reasonable, realistic suggestion for making origins more relevant?

I don't think anyone's made that suggestion, but feel free to strawman away.

The irony is stunning.

 

Wait, so you're saying I did ask for that?

 

Do you work in any kind of production industry (software or otherwise)?

Yes.

 

And in your line of work, if someone suggests a feature, that's akin to demanding it?

 

I'm not sure it's your position to decide for them what's appropriate and feasible.

Which of my posts do you believe was directed towards the dev team?

 

Actually, all of them (or I guess most of them). Your objections are development-based. Who else should you be talking to? I mean why are you arguing with me over development time?

 

So at this point I'm going to assume you're just being contrary for contrary's sake. It looks like most of the other folks in this thread have already decided the same thing. I know, I'm slow on the uptake some times. Good luck hashing out development priorities with the Homecoming team. Hope it works out.