How to improve Scrappers base performance?

[venetiasilver]

Given the anecdotal history, when they merged all the archetypes together. It was discovered that Brutes did more damage than Scrappers and had more HP. This was addressed but has made an issue; Scrappers power budget is roughly 90% put in the Archetype Origin enhancement for the critical strikes proc, and even with this it has a chance to fail.
This compounds worse when you pick a new melee damage character, and if you're playing solo. Brutes will always get Level 1 to 20 faster by sheer factor that the fury mechanic pushes their native damage up so well, meanwhile Scrappers flat damage scale can only perform expected results. 
One Thunder Kick from a Scrapper will always do X damage, meanwhile Brute will do X+150% damage which is basically a crit and a half when they are at 75% fury which is rather easy to maintain in most scenarios.

I understand at high end buffing scrappers pushes them too much, however the early game slog means not many would want to play them. How would you address this?

[C U R S E]

Scrapper ATO' can be slitted like another Arche Type at level 10, including the critical strikes. You will have all the benefits of those nasty crits at level 10. In my opinion fury will not surpass that damage.

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, venetiasilver said:

I understand at high end buffing scrappers pushes them too much, however the early game slog means not many would want to play them. How would you address this?

Easy. Recognise that Scrappers =/= Brutes.

Brutes thrive whenever they're constantly being punched in the face by everything or constantly punching everything in the face.
That's how they build Fury, and maintain the high damagemuffins.
Brutes also taunt anything they attack, causing foes to blindly focus on them.

Scrappers thrive whenever they're running from boss to boss, tapping Build Up then "arresting" them so fast and hard that they leave bits of them splattered all over the floor/walls/ceiling/neighbouring buildings. They don't need to build and maintain Fury, they can get upset by a foe simply looking at them funny.
Scrappers also tend to focus blindly on attacking anything that taunts them.

Brutes generally trend towards performing best vs +0/8, Scrappers towards +4/0.
Sure, there are exceptions like Spines/ Scrappers and /FA Brutes... but by and large one is a slaughtering boss and the other is a boss slaughterer.

They're both capable soloers, but Scrappers have better "spike damage" but lower damage resistance and maximum health caps - so they're better at skirmishing with a few tough foes and killing them off quickly rather than at soaking the aggro of the entire map.

[aethereal]

5 hours ago, C U R S E said:

Scrapper ATO' can be slitted like another Arche Type at level 10, including the critical strikes. You will have all the benefits of those nasty crits at level 10. In my opinion fury will not surpass that damage.

 

Sort of, but note that the Scrapper ATO, perhaps more than any other ATO, really cares a lot about the difference between regular and superior versions (because +1 PPM is a much bigger deal for going from 3->4 than from 5->6 or whatever).  Also, the performance of Scrappers at 50 through their ATO has a ton to do with the usual global recharge-based PPM abuse, and you really can't have anything like the global recharge that you have at 50 earlier on, because the +10% recharge options (superior ATOs and purples) are locked to 50, which in turn means that you don't have perma-hasten before 50 -- so just the difference between 49 and 50 for a Scrapper is probably like roughly a 25% optimized crit rate?

 

The way they could address this is to lower the power of the +50% crit rate ATO and push some of that crit chance into the other ATO and the basic class feature.  This would both increase the floor and lower the ceiling on scrapper performance, which would overall be good.

[Maelwys]

I... honestly think there's far too much emphasis being put on the Scrapper Critical Hit mechanic here.
Crits are not anywhere near as important to Scrapper Damage Output as Fury is to a Brute's.
The higher Scrapper base damage modifier produces decent results by itself, Crits are just icing on the cake.

Functional Example: Broadsword ability "Hack":

=== SCRAPPER DAMAGE, WITH VARIOUS CRIT CHANCES AND/OR ATOs ===

Spoiler

Average without crits
Hack (Base damage) = 102.6
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 202.4
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 305
At damage cap: 513
 

Average including Crits vs Minions (+5%)
Hack (Base damage) = 107.73
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 212.52
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 320.25
At damage cap: 538.65
 

Average including Crits vs LTs+ (+10%)
Hack (Base damage) = 112.86
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 222.64
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 335.5
At damage cap: 564.3
 

Average including Crits for T9s (+15%)
Hack (Base damage) = 117.99
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 232.76
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 350.75
At damage cap: 589.95
 

Average including Crits vs Minions and SSS ATO (+8%)
Hack (Base damage) = 110.81
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 218.59
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 329.4
At damage cap: 554.04
 

Average including Crits vs LTs+ and SSS ATO (+16%)
Hack (Base damage) = 119.02
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 234.78
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 353.8
At damage cap: 595.08
 

Average including Crits for T9s vs Minions and SSS ATO (+18%)
Hack (Base damage) = 121.07
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 238.83
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 359.9
At damage cap: 605.34
 

Average including Crits for T9s vs LTs+ and SSS ATO (+21%)
Hack (Base damage) = 124.15
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 244.90
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = 369.05
At 500% damage cap: 620.73

=== BRUTE DAMAGE, AT VARIOUS FURY LEVELS ===

Spoiler

Hack (Base damage) = 68.4
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = 134.9
3-slotted with SOs plus 50% Fury = 203.3
3-slotted with SOs plus 55% Fury = 210.1
3-slotted with SOs plus 60% Fury = 217.0
3-slotted with SOs plus 65% Fury = 223.8
3-slotted with SOs plus 70% Fury = 230.7
3-slotted with SOs plus 75% Fury = 237.5
3-slotted with SOs plus 80% Fury = 244.3
3-slotted with SOs plus 85% Fury = 251.2
3-slotted with SOs plus 90% Fury = 258.0
3-slotted with SOs plus 95% Fury = 264.9
3-slotted with SOs plus 100% Fury = 271.7
3-slotted with SOs plus 50% Fury plus Build Up = 258.0
3-slotted with SOs plus 55% Fury plus Build Up = 264.9
3-slotted with SOs plus 60% Fury plus Build Up = 271.7
3-slotted with SOs plus 65% Fury plus Build Up = 278.5
3-slotted with SOs plus 70% Fury plus Build Up = 285.4
3-slotted with SOs plus 75% Fury plus Build Up = 292.2
3-slotted with SOs plus 80% Fury plus Build Up = 299.1
3-slotted with SOs plus 85% Fury plus Build Up = 305.9
3-slotted with SOs plus 90% Fury plus Build Up = 312.8
3-slotted with SOs plus 95% Fury plus Build Up = 319.6
3-slotted with SOs plus 100% Fury plus Build Up = 326.4
At 700% damage cap: 478.8

===================================================
Breakpoints where Brute performance begins to exceed Scrapper performance:
===================================================

Spoiler

No ATOs/Crits:
Base Damage = ~25% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~50% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = ~85% Fury
 

Average including Crits vs Minions (+5%)
Base damage = ~29% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~57% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = ~96% Fury
 

Average including Crits vs LTs+ (+10%)
Base damage = ~33% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~65% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury
 

Average including Crits for T9s (+15%)
Base damage = ~37% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~72% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury
 

Average including Crits vs Minions and SSS ATO (+8%)
Base damage = ~32% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~62% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury
 

Average including Crits vs LTs+ and SSS ATO (+16%)
Base damage = ~38% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~73% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury
 

Average including Crits for T9s vs Minions and SSS ATO (+11%)
Base damage = ~39% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~76% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury
 

Average including Crits for T9s vs LTs+ and SSS ATO (+21%)
Base damage = ~41% Fury
3-slotted with +3 Damage SOs = ~81% Fury
3-slotted with SOs plus Build Up = Impossible even with 100% Fury


...and what about with a few simple extra +Damage% buffs?

3-slotted with No Crits, +3 Damage SOs and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 222.2 damage = Needs ~57% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 244.42 damage = Needs ~73% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs, SSS ATO and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 257.75 damage  = Needs ~83% Fury
3-slotted with No Crits, +3 Damage SOs and Musculature Core Paragon Alpha = 235.5 damage = Needs ~58% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs and Musculature Core Paragon Alpha = 259.05 damage = Needs ~75% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs, SSS ATO and Musculature Core Paragon Alpha = 273.18 damage  = Needs ~85% Fury
3-slotted with No Crits, +3 Damage SOs, and MCP Alpha and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 255.3 damage = Needs ~65% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs, MCP Alpha and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 280.83 damage = Needs ~83% Fury
3-slotted with Crits vs LTs+, +3 Damage SOs, SSS ATO, MCP Alpha and Against All Odds (1 Foe) = 296.15 damage = Needs ~94% Fury

 

So in a typical situation, with just SOs and Basic Inherent Critical hits on non-T9 attacks versus non-negligible foes (LTs+), Brutes typically need to be operating at ~65 Fury to draw level with Scrapper average damage numbers. Whenever you factor in additional damage buffs (like Build Up, Follow Up, AAO, Set Bonuses, Teammate Buffs and/or Alpha Slots); Scrappers pull *way* ahead - realistically the only time Brutes compare favourably is at very high fury levels (~80+) whenever the Scrapper is lacking any of their ATOs and isn't fighting enemy ranks above minion.

Whenever you also include ATOs (even just the SSS one), things get silly very quickly... but even without them a Brute will operate on an even keel *at best* unless the Scrapper isn't getting any noteworthy +Damage% buffs or -Resistance% debuffs.
 

Edited February 28 by Maelwys
[EDIT: Reformatted and added a bunch more more comparison cases for clarity]

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Baseline scrapper DPA is often in the 200 - 300+ range for single target attacks. Without crits scrapper single target DPS would be below blasters, many or most sentinels, most dominators, stalkers, and a bunch of other ATs. Crits are what allow scrappers to top these ATs for single target damage. 

The OP makes a legitimate point about how there are downsides to having so much of an AT's power attached to crits and the associated AT IOs. 

Another downside to making crits and the associated AT IOs so important is that it is currently quite complicated to build a high-end damage dealing scrapper, requiring a high level of knowledge about mechanics for crits and the AT IOs. Lots of newer players probably have disappointing experiences with scrappers because of that. 
 

Edited February 26 by EnjoyTheJourney

[venetiasilver]

3 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Baseline scrapper DPA is often in the 200 - 300+ range for single target attacks. Without crits scrapper single target DPS would be below blasters, many or most sentinels, most dominators, stalkers, and a bunch of other ATs. Crits are what allow scrappers to top these ATs for single target damage. 

The OP makes a legitimate point about how there are downsides to having so much of an AT's power attached to crits and the associated AT IOs. 

Another downside to making crits and the associated AT IOs so important is that it is currently quite complicated to build a high-end damage dealing scrapper, requiring a high level of knowledge about mechanics for crits and the AT IOs. Lots of newer players probably have disappointing experiences with scrappers because of that. 
 

Mostly this is my main dilemma with the Scrapper Archetype despite making MANY scrappers.

The level 1 to 20 experience is strongest with Brutes because the HP per mob at that level isn't well designed to handle how much Brutes output during that phase of the game.
Roughly at 25 is when all Brutes start to feel that the HP per mob is climbing higher than their base fury has the gas to kill, especially if you're playing a mono damage type that gets resisted like playing Katana and hitting the Sky Raider Jump Bots. 

As I've absorbed from play and have had introspection on it, Scrappers feel like the full underdog archetype much the same as Controllers where we both start off feeling worse than most other AT's, then as the level scales hit and our kits complete over time we radically shift momentum.
The main roadblock is that its squeezing Juice out of a coconut with your bare hands, You want that juice but its so far away.

Mostly from a design point I know the ATO was from the Paragon Studios era and it was a hasty hotfix that now proposes a major issue that it holds so much power of the AT in its hands. In a way if it was just a Defense Bonus Proc and Scrapper Build ups were where the Crit boosts were then it would be more accessible, For 10 Seconds a 40% crit boost. On a reliable timer that anyone can use, and would free up rotations and be less stringent on global recharge timers.

[Maelwys]

Quote

Baseline scrapper DPA is often in the 200 - 300+ range for single target attacks. Without crits scrapper single target DPS would be below blasters, many or most sentinels, most dominators, stalkers, and a bunch of other ATs. Crits are what allow scrappers to top these ATs for single target damage. 

The OP makes a legitimate point about how there are downsides to having so much of an AT's power attached to crits and the associated AT IOs. 

The OP specifically referenced Scrapper damage in comparison to Brutes rather than Stalkers or non-melee ATs.
Presumably this is because Brutes and Scrappers have identical powerset and are both generally seen as "melee DPS" ATs.

The rebuttal I made was that Scrapper Damage compares favourably to Brutes even without Crits due to the Scrapper AT's substantially higher base damage modifier.
I think it's fair to state that between those two ATs; Brutes have a higher survivability peak (Damage Resistance and Maximum HP); and Scrappers have a higher damage output peak (raw red numbers) and that when soloing at lower levels, Scrappers that can self-buff their damage output will pull ahead.

The Damage per Animation of Scrapper attacks in comparison to Blasters, Sentinels, Stalkers, etc. is an entirely different conversation, and every point made against Scrappers there will apply to Brutes as well; since they share common animation times and powersets.

That said, I have an old DPA spreadsheet dated 2011 in which a Fire/Shield Scrapper comfortably places at the top of the ST damage charts... and ten years later (2021 was when I last properly bothered mathing it) a lowly solo Katana/Regen could push >340 DPA when procced-up with an optimised attack chain without ATOs or Build Up running; and Energy Melee could comfortably push >420 DPA under the same circumstances.
Yes, ATOs will certainly increase Scrapper damage; but unless things have changed drastically in the last few patches they will be adding at *most* roughly an extra attack's worth of damage onto your attack chain every ~10 seconds (The Superior CS Proc grants +50% crit rate activation for 3.25 seconds, which includes the animation time of the activating ability. Given most scrapper powerset activation times, you can typically get 1-2 attacks off at most with that buff applied to them. However hitting the 90% activation rate cap for the CS proc is only possible when you slot it into a power with >12s base recharge; and *most* of those have longer activation times. Best-case you might fit a lower-DPA 1.188s or 1.32s activation time power in, followed by something slower and heavier...)

There's also an argument that other ATs (Stalkers, for example) rely much more on their ATOs for DPA than Scrappers do!
 

Edited February 26 by Maelwys

[Maelwys]

33 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

As I've absorbed from play and have had introspection on it, Scrappers feel like the full underdog archetype much the same as Controllers where we both start off feeling worse than most other AT's, then as the level scales hit and our kits complete over time we radically shift momentum.
The main roadblock is that its squeezing Juice out of a coconut with your bare hands, You want that juice but its so far away.

Strangely enough, it was actually the opposite experience for me on my first Scrapper.
At the time /Regen was unique to Blueside, Stamina needed a power pool pick and level 20; and no other DPS ATs existed with access to a buff like Quick Recovery.
By comparison to other ATs I'd played, my little Katana/Regen Scrapper just DID NOT STOP. At full pelt they could go for days, essentially a cross between an energiser bunny and a woodchipper; and they could switch into "turtle mode" with a single button press (Divine Avalanche).
By comparison, other toons managed maybe one attack chain before their Blue bar bottomed out and they were reduced to using Brawl; and they tended to faceplant if a single red-conning LT so much as glanced at them.
After they hit 50, that Scrapper still took pride of place on my character list for a long time... until Inventions hit + other sorts of toons became able to deal better damage whilst hitting the defence softcap solo. However they still got pulled out any time the SG ran any Malta, Carnie or Shadow Shard missions; and eventually the introduction of more damage and -res procs helped them raise their head again - not top of the pack, but a respectable "upper middle tier".

My Controllers on the other hand certainly experienced exactly what you're talking about here. I'd an Illusion/Empath that was SOOOO slow to level up... even with Deceive and Phantom Wounds doing most of the heavy lifting. However once at 50 + IOed they were easily one of the best toons I've ever rolled up prior to Incarnate Abilities; with Perma-PA, Perma-Adrenaline boost, almost Perma Auras and Power Boosted Fortitudes.
 

Edited February 26 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

Scrappers start off with 50% more damage on their attacks, from the moment they engage, unlike Brutes who have to work up Fury. Factor in crits, and Scrappers are at 60% base. A Brute would need to be at 32 Fury to be where a Scrapper's first hit starts at. 85 is a sort of practical limit while fighting but...

 

Brutes have no higher defenses or resistance values than Scrapper do, only having more hp. Their endurance bars are the same.  Maintaining whatever level of Fury someone thinks Brutes do means continuously spending endurance and health because if you're not gaining/maintaining Fury, you're losing it. And if you've rested to recover health or endurance, you're back at zero Fury. Oddly enough, you do have to rest and recover from time to time.

 

I am not sure the picture painted of low level Brutes is accurate. But I am pretty sure the time spent running up from level 1 to 20 is pretty short in the existence of a character, regardless of AT. Meanwhile at level 40, with nothing beyond SOs slotted, I have a level 40 scrapper whose routine is to toss out damage like the following, which Brutes can dream of:

 

 

So if a Brute gets to level 20 in 3 hours versus 4 hours on a scrapper (numbers pulled out of the air, but honestly, it is just not that long regardless of AT), I have to question how meaningful that really is.

[biostem]

I'd love to see scrappers get a more reliable source of crits, kind of like how stalkers have their inherent 10% + 3% per nearby teammate.

[venetiasilver]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Scrappers start off with 50% more damage on their attacks, from the moment they engage, unlike Brutes who have to work up Fury. Factor in crits, and Scrappers are at 60% base. A Brute would need to be at 32 Fury to be where a Scrapper's first hit starts at. 85 is a sort of practical limit while fighting but...

 

Brutes have no higher defenses or resistance values than Scrapper do, only having more hp. Their endurance bars are the same.  Maintaining whatever level of Fury someone thinks Brutes do means continuously spending endurance and health because if you're not gaining/maintaining Fury, you're losing it. And if you've rested to recover health or endurance, you're back at zero Fury. Oddly enough, you do have to rest and recover from time to time.

 

I am not sure the picture painted of low level Brutes is accurate. But I am pretty sure the time spent running up from level 1 to 20 is pretty short in the existence of a character, regardless of AT. Meanwhile at level 40, with nothing beyond SOs slotted, I have a level 40 scrapper whose routine is to toss out damage like the following, which Brutes can dream of:

 

 

So if a Brute gets to level 20 in 3 hours versus 4 hours on a scrapper (numbers pulled out of the air, but honestly, it is just not that long regardless of AT), I have to question how meaningful that really is.

The functional part is First Impressions.
Level 1 to 6 when say a brand new player will be hitting mobs, on the Brute they'll be deceived long term by how much more HP mobs are gaining. On a Scrapper they'll feel things are sluggish with some spice on the crits on Lieutenants every now and then. 

[venetiasilver]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'd love to see scrappers get a more reliable source of crits, kind of like how stalkers have their inherent 10% + 3% per nearby teammate.

I generally think it should be in Build Up.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

I generally think it should be in Build Up.

Not a bad idea, but I'd rather it not be something tied to just that single power.  Maybe tie it to the 1st melee power the scrapper takes, instead, (treat it like a short-term buff), since said power is mandatory.

Edited February 27 by biostem

[aethereal]

25 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I am not sure the picture painted of low level Brutes is accurate. But I am pretty sure the time spent running up from level 1 to 20 is pretty short in the existence of a character, regardless of AT. Meanwhile at level 40, with nothing beyond SOs slotted, I have a level 40 scrapper whose routine is to toss out damage like the following, which Brutes can dream of:

 

 

Meh.  Brutes at level 40 with just SOs and Fury can do like 317 and 407 damage base with shatter and clobber.  Sure, they do less damage than scrappers when scrappers crit twice in a row, but they do it every time, while a scrapper with just SOs critting those two attacks one after another is a 1% chance.  The odds of either attack critting is less than 20%.

 

And don't just look at whatever particular scenario someone brings up here.  We know what the situation was holistically back when Scrappers had the same damage scalars they do now, but no ATO's -- it was that way for years on live with thousands of players.  And the exhaustive result of that was: "Brutes are just better Scrappers."

 

You need better than 10% crit chance to make Scrappers worth it.

 

25 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So if a Brute gets to level 20 in 3 hours versus 4 hours on a scrapper (numbers pulled out of the air, but honestly, it is just not that long regardless of AT), I have to question how meaningful that really is.

 

This however is correct.  Like, if you're someone who turns off XP and exhaustively plays levels 1-20 as the entirety of your gameplay, by all means enjoy a Brute's better scalars at very low levels.  But I used to solo all my characters through missions, no teams no farming, and levels 1-20 still went by like lightning.  And levels 1-10, which is where Brute scalars really shine and they're absurdly overpower, are both over in the snap of your fingers and also are easy for all classes, it's not like scrappers suffer for the low level experience.

[Erratic1]

53 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

The functional part is First Impressions.
Level 1 to 6 when say a brand new player will be hitting mobs, on the Brute they'll be deceived long term by how much more HP mobs are gaining. On a Scrapper they'll feel things are sluggish with some spice on the crits on Lieutenants every now and then. 

 

While I suppose some people try out an AT for 6 levels, then try out another one, I am going to guess that is not how most people figure out what they want to play. 

 

If starting out with 60% more damage on the first hit, decreasing as the Brute works up their Fury while losing health, is sluggish, what exact metric are you using?

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, aethereal said:

And don't just look at whatever particular scenario someone brings up here.  We know what the situation was holistically back when Scrappers had the same damage scalars they do now, but no ATO's -- it was that way for years on live with thousands of players.  And the exhaustive result of that was: "Brutes are just better Scrappers."

 

Are we having an conversation about the long, long, long ago or are we talking about here, today? Because 2010 was a long time ago. And last I looked, ATO do exist and the AT with the the absolute worst is Brute, not Scrapper. Not even remotely.

 

25 minutes ago, aethereal said:

This however is correct.  Like, if you're someone who turns off XP and exhaustively plays levels 1-20 as the entirety of your gameplay, by all means enjoy a Brute's better scalars at very low levels.  But I used to solo all my characters through missions, no teams no farming, and levels 1-20 still went by like lightning.  And levels 1-10, which is where Brute scalars really shine and they're absurdly overpower, are both over in the snap of your fingers and also are easy for all classes, it's not like scrappers suffer for the low level experience.

 

And since it flies by on most ATs quickly (one wonders how the Brutes can be so absurdly overpowered if it is flying by), one wonders what the complaint is? That Scrappers have a 10-20 level range  out the gate where they do not outshine Brutes for DPS, like they will for the rest of eternity?

[aethereal]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Are we having an conversation about the long, long, long ago or are we talking about here, today? Because 2010 was a long time ago. And last I looked, ATO do exist and the AT with the the absolute worst is Brute, not Scrapper. Not even remotely.

 

People can believe two correct things, we aren't forced to believe a correct thing and an incorrect one.

 

Right now, Scrappers are absurdly more powerful than Brutes at 50, they outdamage Brutes by a million miles and the small Brute compensatory advantages don't come close to outweighing the Scrapper damage.  But also, below 50, Scrappers have little or no damage advantage over Brutes.

 

People really, really want it to be the case that either Scrappers outdamage Brutes 1-50 or Brutes outdamage Scrappers 1-50, but that's not so.  The 50 and 1-49 experiences are very different.

 

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And since it flies by on most ATs quickly (one wonders how the Brutes can be so absurdly overpowered if it is flying by), one wonders what the complaint is? That Scrappers have a 10-20 level range  out the gate where they do not outshine Brutes for DPS, like they will for the rest of eternity?

 

I was agreeing with you.  There's no point in worrying about the Brute or Scrapper 1-20 experience.

[Haijinx]

This seems like buzzaro thread.  

 

Scrappers do a lot more dame than Brutes once you transition from SOs to Full builds.

 

IOs  are part of the game, you can't just ignore that difference and argue SO stuff. 

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Right now, Scrappers are absurdly more powerful than Brutes at 50, they outdamage Brutes by a million miles and the small Brute compensatory advantages don't come close to outweighing the Scrapper damage.  But also, below 50, Scrappers have little or no damage advantage over Brutes.

 

Do they have an advantage over Stalkers? No? Then why are Stalkers not in the crosshairs?

 

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

People really, really want it to be the case that either Scrappers outdamage Brutes 1-50 or Brutes outdamage Scrappers 1-50, but that's not so.  The 50 and 1-49 experiences are very different.

 

They are different, but they are also difference between the two ATs in the sub-50 range. With the same resistances and defenses on the table, the Brute does have to recover and always has to build back up to his damage max. When you crit off the top, or let's say you don't crit but your first two hits kill the target because you started with more damage on the Scrapper, that is damage you did not have to endure on a Scrapper. Meanwhile, Mr Zero Fury is never entering a fight fresh and defeating the opponents in two hits. It is going to take hitting and being hit to increase Fury and that is more endurance spent and hence more time spent recovering. Yes, until you run low on health or endurance, you can get up to nice values but that means the situation is looking at the difference between one racer who maintains a more consistent pace versus one who sprints then stops and catches their breath while the first continues on unchanging. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I was agreeing with you.  There's no point in worrying about the Brute or Scrapper 1-20 experience.

 

I was not arguing against but echoing you in reference to the OP.

[Thraxen]

^this is bait. 

[SomeGuy]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This seems like buzzaro thread.  

 

Scrappers do a lot more dame than Brutes once you transition from SOs to Full builds.

 

IOs  are part of the game, you can't just ignore that difference and argue SO stuff. 

 

 

For real. I normally ignore ridiculous threads, but the title on this one had me look. The first post has me even responding. There's a reason I have a full roster of scrappers and no brutes.  I like to do damage to things. Scrappers do that better then brutes. I want to live forever and do damage? Tanker. I want to run the bleeding edge of life and death and deal gobs of damage? Scrapper. I want to not do either of those as well as a tanker or scrapper? Brute.

 

Brutes used to out shine scrappers in every way. Then they were nerfed to fall in line damage wise to scraps. Then ATO1 hit. That was a blow to brutes in the damage department. Then ATO2...lol. Yeah. Brutes may as well have not even gotten an ATO that pass. Whereas scrappers got one of the best in the game.

 

Before the tanker changes I'd feel differently, but here we are.

 

I do remember City of Brutes. Very. Well.

[Maelwys]

8 hours ago, aethereal said:

We know what the situation was holistically back when Scrappers had the same damage scalars they do now, but no ATO's -- it was that way for years on live with thousands of players.  And the exhaustive result of that was: "Brutes are just better Scrappers."

 

And then came the Fury nerfs.

 

ATOs were a much later thing - by the time they arrived Brutes and Scrappers were largely on par because Tankers were still punching like wet noodles and Brutes filled the "hardier than a scrapper but slightly less damage" role.

 

And then came the Tank Damage buffs.

These days a Brutes niche is pretty much soloing dedicated Farming maps (whenever there's no Tanker with AoEs available + a Kinetic....) which is a very far cry from circa issues 6-10.

 

Quote

You need better than 10% crit chance to make Scrappers worth it.

 

These days? Perhaps vs Stalkers but definitely not vs Brutes.

 

Edited February 27 by Maelwys

[venetiasilver]

3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

For real. I normally ignore ridiculous threads, but the title on this one had me look. The first post has me even responding. There's a reason I have a full roster of scrappers and no brutes.  I like to do damage to things. Scrappers do that better then brutes. I want to live forever and do damage? Tanker. I want to run the bleeding edge of life and death and deal gobs of damage? Scrapper. I want to not do either of those as well as a tanker or scrapper? Brute.

 

Brutes used to out shine scrappers in every way. Then they were nerfed to fall in line damage wise to scraps. Then ATO1 hit. That was a blow to brutes in the damage department. Then ATO2...lol. Yeah. Brutes may as well have not even gotten an ATO that pass. Whereas scrappers got one of the best in the game.

 

Before the tanker changes I'd feel differently, but here we are.

 

I do remember City of Brutes. Very. Well.

The large portion is that the ATO was handled poorly in my opinion. Too much of the Archetype's power budget is put into that. If some of the power was put into the base character at creation no enhancements needed just a general way to manipulate your own crits out of the box.

[Maelwys]

14 hours ago, venetiasilver said:

If some of the power was put into the base character at creation no enhancements needed just a general way to manipulate your own crits out of the box.

This is exactly the case.

The largest part of the power of Scrappers comes by way of their high damage modifier; which is baked in from level 1 and drastically raises the base damage of Scrapper attacks.

To bring it back to the Brute comparison that the OP was making... at extremely-low-levels, a Scrapper with no Enhancements deals decent damage compared to a Brute by dint of their modifier alone as per my earlier post. 
Scrapper "Hack" Base damage including Crits vs LTs+ (+10%) = 112.9 versus Brute "Hack" Base damage = 68.4
Therefore only +65% Damage (a hair under 33 Fury) is required for a Brute to equal the Scrapper without enhancements being factored in at all.
So if you're too low to use any damage enhancements; then a Brute that can maintain high fury will pull noticably ahead of a Scrapper.
...but at that level it is common to encounter endurance and survivability issues that prevent you from maintaining high Fury in the first place.

And that is only the *extreme* early game.
After only a few short hours of playing (levels ~17-22+) the same Scrapper and Brute will typically start slotting the equivalent of a few Damage SOs into their attacks.
Scrapper "Hack" 3-slotted with +3 SOs including Crits vs LTs+ (+10%) = 222.6 
In order for a Brute to hit/exceed that under the same conditions, they'd require roughly +130% Damage (65 Fury).

So as long as you're playing with SOs/Common Crafted IOs then Scrappers appear to be just fine compared to Brutes (and Tanks and Stalkers too; pre-IO-sets).

I appreciate that it can be tempting for certain people to not slot any SO/Common Crafted enhancements until level ~27. But at the other end of the scale are the guys who run the "Death from Below" trial over and over and over. I imagine most of us sit somewhere in between. Personally I never bothered with TOs even on live, and tend to use DOs and SOs between levels 12-22 ish; then swap to Common Crafted IOs as placeholders until I can start to slot all the various Attuned and +3 Set IOs in.

Also; just in case anyone who is unfamiliar with Scrapper/Tank/Brute/Stalker damage mechanics happens to have bothered reading this far through the thread (kudos!):

Spoiler

1. Nearly all damage buffs in the game (like Enhancements and Build Up and Fury and Fulcrum Shift and Set Bonuses) increase your character's "Damage Strength" value, which is essentially a running tally of how much your base damage is getting buffed by things. This stacks additively with your original 100% base damage figure up to a certain limit (500% for Scrappers/Tanks/Stalkers, 700% for Brutes).
2. Scrapper Crits stack *multiplicatively* with that final additive damage figure and will (outside of a few edge cases such as Energy Melee) double the attack's TOTAL damage. Crits normally only have a 5% of kicking in against minions and 10% for higher enemy ranks; but some of the T9 attacks have 15% to crit against all critter ranks. The level 50 Scrapper ATOs increase that chance further: Superior Scrapper's Strike raises the chance for all attacks to Crit by +3% for minions and +6% for higher enemy ranks. Superior Critical Strikes is a 4 PPM Proc, which when triggered raises your chance to crit by +50% for 5.25 seconds (however the timer begins whenever the attack the IO is slotted in starts animating; and unfortunately the critical chance increase does not apply to the triggering attack itself. This means that you can typically only manage to get 1-2 fast-animating attacks affected by the increased critical chance buff before it expires)
3. A few flat increases such as Damage procs and Hybrid Assault Radial are added on top. These don't care about your damage modifier, current buffs, or what you had for breakfast.
4. Finally when the attack connects, damage resistance buffs/debuffs on the target get factored in, which apply multiplicatively against your final damage figure once more.

As a quick comparison of those other Melee ATs with Scrappers:

• Brutes have a much lower melee damage modifier (0.75 vs Scrapper 1.125). However their Fury mechanic means that as long as they continue to attack or get attacked they can generally raise their own "Damage Strength" value by roughly +160% (at 80 Fury) and keep it there indefinitely. Because all "Damage Strength" buffs stack additively, this benefit is much more noticable whenever they're soloing with little/no other buffs from damage enhancements, Build Up, Fulcrum Shift, etc. They also get higher damage resistance caps (90% compared to Scrapper 75%) and maximum HP... but the buff values are the same so it's much harder for them to reach those limits than a Tanker.
   
• Tanks have a lower melee damage modifier (0.95 - so not quite as low as Brutes) but a buff on Area Affect Radius - so their AoEs and Cones hit a lot more foes. They also get higher damage resistance caps (90% compared to Scrapper 75%) and maximum HP... and their buff values are also higher so typically few build concessions are required for them to hit those limits.
   
• Stalkers have a slightly lower damage modifier (1.00) but they are the undisputed Kings of melee spike damage. They have a baseline 10% flat chance to Crit vs anything; which increases by 3% for each nearby team member. However they also Crit Automatically whenever they have "Hidden" status (which the Stalker's Guile ATO gives a chance to instantly apply; reducing the need for them to repeatedly Re-Stealth or Placate in the middle of combat). Their Assassin's Mark ATO gives their "Build Up" a decent chance to instantly recharge. And finally there is the "Assassin's Strike" power (which their entire AT used to revolve around a very very long time ago) - this can let a Stalker start off a fight with a single massive hit; and every regular attack they land grants them an additional 33.3% chance for it to Crit during combat. The cost of all that shenaniganery is that Stalkers tend to have very little AoE damage capability to speak of (outside of say a Elec/Shield/Mu Stalker) and substantially lower maximum HP.
   
• VEATs (Night Widows and Bane/Crab Spiders), EATs (Peacebringers and Warshades) and secondary-focused Blasters-that-act-a-bit-like-Scrappers ("Blappers") etc. etc. all exist too; but those builds often mix Melee and Ranged capability plus CC/Buffs/etc and generally get a bit tricky to quantify. I loved playing my melee-softcapped Sonic/Elec Blapper on live; even though he couldn't melt faces anywhere near as fast as my Fire Blaster; and that's the main thing that attracted me to CoH - the game simply isn't tuned highly enough for things like powerset selection and "loot" (high end IOs etc) to overly matter beyond theoretical dongle-measuring spreadsheet milarky.

 

Edited February 28 by Maelwys